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  4. Canthe photon's relativistic mass bend space time such that the m field propels?
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Canthe photon's relativistic mass bend space time such that the m field propels?

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Offline ron123456 (OP)

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Canthe photon's relativistic mass bend space time such that the m field propels?
« on: 22/02/2023 19:08:24 »
....just chatting.....can the photon's huge relativistic mass form a magnetic field propelling tunnel from the classical wave's em field?....thx
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Canthe photon's relativistic mass bend space time such that the m field propels?
« Reply #1 on: 23/02/2023 12:12:03 »
Quote from: ron123456 on 22/02/2023 19:08:24
...can the photon's huge relativistic mass
I'm fairly sure that the mass of a photon is limited to the Planck mass.
That's not within most people's definition of "huge".

Let's look at this .
Quote from: ron123456 on 22/02/2023 19:08:24
can the photon's huge relativistic mass form a magnetic field propelling tunnel from the classical wave's em field?....thx
from a different perspective

Can the photon's author's huge relativistic mass form a magnetic field propelling tunnel from the classical wave's em field?

No. (Partly because it's gibberish)
What's "special" about a photon?
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Offline Origin

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Re: Canthe photon's relativistic mass bend space time such that the m field propels?
« Reply #2 on: 23/02/2023 18:20:17 »
Quote from: ron123456 on 22/02/2023 19:08:24
photon's huge relativistic mass
photons do not have a huge relativistic mass.  If all of the energy in an extremely high energy gamma ray (photon) was converted to mass, the resulting mass would be miniscule.
Quote from: ron123456 on 22/02/2023 19:08:24
form a magnetic field propelling tunnel
That is not a thing.
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Offline Eternal Student

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Re: Canthe photon's relativistic mass bend space time such that the m field propels?
« Reply #3 on: 24/02/2023 05:17:24 »
Hi.
   I've got a few minutes to spare so I'm going to be the one to take a bit more sympathy with Ron's post.

From the title:
   Can the photon's relativistic mass bend space time...? 

Answer:   
   Yes, in a way   BUT  it's probably not the best way to think about it.
    In General Relativity (GR),  mass will bend spacetime and so will energy bend spacetime.   Indeed for the typical application of GR  we would just consider some particles of mass m and with low speed to be contributing an amount of energy E = mc2 at a location in space which is the particles location.    To say this more succinctly,   GR is really set up to use a  mathematical object called the stress-energy tensor.    That tensor is going to hold all the information about what is in our space and we fill in the values for that tensor just by knowing about the energy density at every place in space (and also the flow of momentum through every point in space).     So, trying to convert a photon to some mass equivalent is almost backward and unnecessary,  you already have it as some energy located somewhere and you also know about the momentum it has.  Leaving it in that form saves you time.   If you did decide to replace the photon and model it as an ordinary particle with some mass and high speed,  then the first thing you have to do when calculating the stress-energy tensor is determine the energy equivalent to that mass and feed the momentum of the particle in as though it is just some momentum flowing through space  (i.e.  basically reverse exactly what you did to convert the photon to an ordinary particle with mass).   The stress-energy tensor usually includes the electromagnetic stress-energy tensor, i.e. a place that is just perfect to capture all the information about e-m fields and your photon - you have to go out of your way to avoid using that.
   None the less,  up to practical limits,  a small but non-zero mass particle with momentum equal to the momentum of the photon and total energy (so that's rest energy + kinetic for anyone interested) equal to the energy of the photon should bend spacetime identically to the photon  (provided you put it in the same place as the photon was located).   I've said  "up to practical limits" because a non-zero mass particle can't travel at exactly c.  So no matter what you try and do, the ordinary massive particle cannot keep up with where the photon was supposed to be -  as time elapses you have a situation where the curvature of spacetime progressively differs just because you have the photon and particle in different places.
    So, to phrase it another way:   Energy located at some place and ordinary mass located at that place will bend spacetime identically,  so (I suppose) you can say that the relativistic mass of the photon was bending spacetime   BUT I wouldn't.   It's far more natural to give up on the mass,  there's nothing special about mass.   Mass has no special power to bend spacetime,  it is just a concentrated form of energy and it is the energy located at that place in space  (and moving with a certain momentum) that causes the bending of spacetime.    An extreme example of producing a strong gravitational field using only e-m radiation and no ordinary massive particles at all is provided by the idea of a Kugelblitz -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugelblitz_(astrophysics)

Best Wishes.
« Last Edit: 24/02/2023 05:31:40 by Eternal Student »
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