[Boxcar]

I with Caroline agree about stricter gun control and I certainly would not want them banned

If you're up for stricter gun control why don't you want guns to be banned? As you said, it's the person who was allowed to hold the gun who's doing the shooting. Is there a good reason to have guns like? If someone says hunting I don't like them.

[another_someone]

"Hunting which involves killing for food I have nothing against"
Maybe lost in the woods or something, we all need to survive. I think humans have come a looonng way since the time when hunting an animal was a necessity for survival but since then that necessity has definitely been eradicated. At least in the western societies with a super market with yummy veggie alternatives on nearly every corner. If you're going out killing animals only to satisfy your pallet I've no sympathy for you. There's almost definitely no more need for it.

Apart from the fact that I, and many others, will not thank you at all for forcing us all to become vegetarians (it may suite you, but many others not so); but I would also argue that often hunting can benefit the species being hunted (so long as it is managed hunting).

Many domestic animals have only survived because they had economic value to humans (often as food value), and their wild cousins have in the meantime perished.

Many animals, such as pheasants, partridges, dear, are semi domesticated, insofar as there are people spending significant amounts of time and money to maintain the populations of these animals in order to keep them available to hunters.  If we lose the hunters, then we will also lose the game keepers that manage the species (or else we shall have to pay for those game keepers out of our taxes).

Clearly, that situation is very different in the US, where there is more open land, and game is more readily available without all the management of scarce resources we have to undertake in north-west Europe.

[kdlynn]

hmmm... that's an interesting reason not to like someone...

[another_someone]

If you're up for stricter gun control why don't you want guns to be banned? As you said, it's the person who was allowed to hold the gun who's doing the shooting. Is there a good reason to have guns like? If someone says hunting I don't like them.

Are you talking about all guns, or only hand guns.

Hand guns, aside from their use by police forces, is only really valuable as a sporting tool, for target practice (for which there are Olympic events).

Rifles and shotguns have not been prohibited in this country because they are still used, aside from hunting for food, also for hunting as a means of vermin control.

[Karen W.]

I with Caroline agree about stricter gun control and I certainly would not want them banned

If you're up for stricter gun control why don't you want guns to be banned? As you said, it's the person who was allowed to hold the gun who's doing the shooting. Is there a good reason to have guns like? If someone says hunting I don't like them.

I believe that people need to be able to defend themselves as well as hunt if need be..We are not all vegetarians.I also know what it is like not to have money to go to those markets for even vegetables so I know we are not all in the same boat money wise a lot of people here rely on hunting and meager income to be able to eat and feed their families.

I think tighter control would help along with requirements for holding a gun..permits training background checks and periodical checks or renewals for permits based on new background checks etc. I am not sure how to do it but I think it is important to be able to maintain one also for safety of yourself and your family if a need ever arose!

[Carolyn]

I with Caroline agree about stricter gun control and I certainly would not want them banned

If you're up for stricter gun control why don't you want guns to be banned? As you said, it's the person who was allowed to hold the gun who's doing the shooting. Is there a good reason to have guns like? If someone says hunting I don't like them.

Stricter gun control doesn't mean get rid of guns. It means the laws should tougher when it comes to who's allowed to own them. 

Yes there are excellent reasons to own guns!  My husband and son & daughter love going shooting....at targets.  We also use them for protection...not just from people, but wild animals as well.  We live in the country.  We've had bears, coyotes, rattlesnakes, moccasins, rabid dogs and even alligators in our yard.

And last but not least, hunting.  I grew up in a hunting family, married a hunter, and my children love to hunt.  Yes, we can buy meat in the grocery store, but not venison.

Sorry if this means you don't like me. []

[Boxcar]

I typed out a massive reply to this and accidently lost it all earlier today so this is going to seem kind of half hearted

I, and many others, will not thank you at all for forcing us all to become vegetarians (it may suite you, but many others not so)

Did I force anyone to be a veg? I've read my post twice now and I don't see it.

Many domestic animals have only survived because they had economic value to humans (often as food value), and their wild cousins have in the meantime perished

What animals are these and why would they have perished had they not been hunted?

If we lose the hunters, then we will also lose the game keepers that manage the species (or else we shall have to pay for those game keepers out of our taxes).

What kind of argument is that? Lets keep hunting for the sake of the gamekeepers? There's other jobs out there you know. For example, many dairy farmers are switching to oil seed rape for the fuel industry whcih I've heard is pretty profitable. There's worse things for your tax to go to like. I'd gladly pay more if I thought it would cripple the meat industry.

..We are not all vegetarians

Is that supposed to surprise me?

..I also know what it is like not to have money to go to those markets for even vegetables so I know we are not all in the same boat money wise a lot of people here rely on hunting and meager income to be able to eat and feed their families.

Yeah, what your saying is some people have to eat meat. I'd be really surprised if many here were in that sort of poverty to be honest. A veggie diet hardly breaks the bank. Look at all the drop outs and crusty punks living in squats who live on vegan diets. I agree that eating meat out of necessity is fine, how could it not be, but nowdays that necessity hardly exists

And last but not least, hunting.  I grew up in a hunting family, married a hunter, and my children love to hunt.

So? What's your point? I grew up in a catholic family and my sister loves to kick a football. I have a mild interest in kicking a football but otherwise these things say nothign about me.

 

Yes, we can buy meat in the grocery store, but not venison. .

You can kill an animal yourself or you can pay greedy corporations to do it for you? You're going for the lesser of two evils and totally missed my point. Why do you kill animals when there's a grocery store selling everything you need for a veggie diet.

Sorry if this means you don't like me.

I wasn't being serious


Sorry guys if I'm coming off in a kind of holier than thou attitude. Vegitarianism is something I feel very strong about and the means of nutrition alot of people really makes me sick.
I was going to type more but I've to catch a train. I'm going to a party tonight whoooo

[Karen W.]

I like meat I like veges I do not want to be a vegetarian.. I choose the food I eat because I like it sometimes I choose it because of the cost .. There is nothing wrong with eating meat! You certainly can choose for your self without criticism. It is a healthy choice if you balance things right!

[another_someone]

I typed out a massive reply to this and accidently lost it all earlier today so this is going to seem kind of half hearted

It happens – which is why I tend to compose the big replies in a word processor, and then cut and paste to post to the site.

Did I force anyone to be a veg? I've read my post twice now and I don't see it.

Sorry guys if I'm coming off in a kind of holier than thou attitude. Vegitarianism is something I feel very strong about and the means of nutrition alot of people really makes me sick.

You previously wrote:

If you're going out killing animals only to satisfy your pallet I've no sympathy for you. There's almost definitely no more need for it.

I read that to mean that you object to anybody who eats dead animals (OK, you did allow the option of people scavenging – e.g. Taking a road kill home to eat, but since the kill was not intentional, therefore would fall outside of your area of distaste).

It seems you had not intended to give that impression, so I shall let it go.

Many domestic animals have only survived because they had economic value to humans (often as food value), and their wild cousins have in the meantime perished

What animals are these and why would they have perished had they not been hunted?

Now you have not read what I wrote.  I did not say they survived because they were hunted, I said they survived (and thrived) because they were eaten by humans – i.e. they were farmed – e.g. cattle and sheep – even pigs within the confines of this country only exist in any numbers on farms.

It is open to judgement whether keeping a pig captive on a farm all its life, and then sending it to slaughter, is really a more humane option than letting a dear wonder freely until you come to shoot it.

If we lose the hunters, then we will also lose the game keepers that manage the species (or else we shall have to pay for those game keepers out of our taxes).

What kind of argument is that? Lets keep hunting for the sake of the gamekeepers? There's other jobs out there you know. For example, many dairy farmers are switching to oil seed rape for the fuel industry whcih I've heard is pretty profitable. There's worse things for your tax to go to like. I'd gladly pay more if I thought it would cripple the meat industry.

Again, you have not read properly what I had written (or at least, you have taken it out of context).

What I wrote, in its totality is:

Many animals, such as pheasants, partridges, dear, are semi domesticated, insofar as there are people spending significant amounts of time and money to maintain the populations of these animals in order to keep them available to hunters.  If we lose the hunters, then we will also lose the game keepers that manage the species (or else we shall have to pay for those game keepers out of our taxes).

I was not saying that we should keep hunting alive in order to pay the gamekeepers salaries; I was saying that the animals are protected and nurtured by the gamekeepers, and in if we lose the gamekeepers, then these animals would suffer (the gamekeepers are in effect farmers).

..I also know what it is like not to have money to go to those markets for even vegetables so I know we are not all in the same boat money wise a lot of people here rely on hunting and meager income to be able to eat and feed their families.

Yeah, what your saying is some people have to eat meat. I'd be really surprised if many here were in that sort of poverty to be honest. A veggie diet hardly breaks the bank. Look at all the drop outs and crusty punks living in squats who live on vegan diets. I agree that eating meat out of necessity is fine, how could it not be, but nowdays that necessity hardly exists

Fresh fruit and vegetables can be extremely expensive these days, but you also have to bear in mind that the whole structure of the welfare state is very different in the US to what we are used to over here, so it is very possible that the situation Karen describes is very different to what we might have here.

It has been said that in the richest country in the world, the USA, there are pockets where the poverty level is comparable to the third world.  This is something we are less used to in Europe.

I was going to type more but I've to catch a train. I'm going to a party tonight whoooo

Have fun!

[Simulated]

I don't really use guns. Why do people need guns to destroy people and get food? Thanks!

[kdlynn]

let's not all attack each other. big group hug!

[Simulated]

Sounds like a good idea. LoL. {{{hugs}}}

[Boxcar]

I choose the food I eat because I like it

Good for you. Are you totally apathetic about everything or is it just animal's lives you don't care about?

There is nothing wrong with eating meat!

Do you know how meat is processed? Look it up. If you already knew and you still think there's nothing wrong, then is it that you think animals are inferior to you or something? Are you aware that animals go through great anxiety and suffering to make it to your plate? I would like to avoid moralising as much as I can so I'll just say that it's pretty important to look at your life and how you live it. Like what causes are due to your actions. Where do your responsibilities come from you know. For example, someone might decide not to buy coca cola, McDonalds or Starbucks products because they find the actions of those corporation to be un ethical. I honestly don't see how the actions of any of the meat corporations are even slightly ethical.

You certainly can choose for your self without criticism

Can you ellaborate?

Also, mods, is it ok to continue the veggie discussion in this thread?

[paul.fr]

Also, mods, is it ok to continue the veggie discussion in this thread?

Boxcar:

I think it best if you start a new topic, if it is a scientific question about a vegetarian diet then post in a science section that best suits your question. If it is about general pro's and con's, more of a personal issue, then i would suggest the chat section would be best.

Side note: Are you sure that vegetables do not feel pain? or undergro stress when they are force grown? Anyway, post your new topic and it can all be discussed there.

[another_someone]

I choose the food I eat because I like it

Good for you. Are you totally apathetic about everything or is it just animal's lives you don't care about?

There is nothing wrong with eating meat!

Do you know how meat is processed? Look it up. If you already knew and you still think there's nothing wrong, then is it that you think animals are inferior to you or something? Are you aware that animals go through great anxiety and suffering to make it to your plate? I would like to avoid moralising as much as I can so I'll just say that it's pretty important to look at your life and how you live it. Like what causes are due to your actions. Where do your responsibilities come from you know. For example, someone might decide not to buy coca cola, McDonalds or Starbucks products because they find the actions of those corporation to be un ethical. I honestly don't see how the actions of any of the meat corporations are even slightly ethical.

Ethics are a highly personal thing, and that you don't see something as ethical does not mean others see it as unethical.

As for how meat is processed – how is that of ethical significance to you (and anyway, if we are talking about people who are hunting for their own table, they know exactly how the meat is processed, because they are doing the processing).

If you are talking about how meat is farmed, that is another matter, but it applies as much to dairy farming, or egg production, as it does to farming for meat.

Also, mods, is it ok to continue the veggie discussion in this thread?

We tend to get less fussy about what happens in threads on the Chat section of the forum than we do elsewhere, but if you wish to start a new thread on the matter, that is fine by me, or if you want us to split the posts that pertain to the veggie discussion into a new thread (so you don't lose the existing posts), we can do that too.

[Killerhobbes117]

well america has a right to bear arms in the constitution
and you try taking americas guns away i wouldnt!!! []

[dentstudent]

Americans have the right to the following, which is slightly different to having a right to own a gun.

US Constitution; 2nd Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

[syhprum]

I have often wondered if the Apollo 11 crew took guns with them to the Moon, I find it hard to imagine Americans going anywhere without guns.

[borrego]

Don't forget your history Britain:

[CGNFOREVER]

[]I'll give up my guns when hell freezes over.
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