How does "instinct" evolve?

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lyner

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #150 on: 03/01/2009 16:13:35 »
A
Can you argue, mathematically, against what the following link is saying?
http://www.creationtheory.org/Probability/Home.xhtml

You say you can do maths - force yourself to read the details; it may do you good.

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Offline RD

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #151 on: 03/01/2009 17:53:29 »
Below left: 12 million year old fossil of horse foot with obvious toes, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse).

Below right: X-ray of the foot of a modern (race) horse with rare atavistic "extra" toes,(http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/ponyexpress/pony11_1/Pe111.html#Atavisms)

 This atavism is proof modern horses have evolved from prehistoric horses.
 
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« Last Edit: 03/01/2009 18:10:36 by RD »

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lyner

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #152 on: 03/01/2009 19:26:03 »
You could be more generous and reasonable and say that it is a very strong indication - rather than absolute proof. Evolution is the most likely explanation; much more likely than some bloke tweaking controls.

But I would like asyncritus's answer to my question about how his system actually works. It seems that he is limited to saying that evolution is wrong and giving specious reasons.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2009 19:29:46 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #153 on: 03/01/2009 20:13:34 »
Asyncritus
You never did reply to my question about what actually goes on in your model.
Does someone constantly tweak the situation or was it just set going at some stage?
What is your particular idea of timescale for this?
How does the clear(?) evidence of past extinctions weigh with you?

I really would like a short, accurate answer to this.
Is it beyond you (or 'beneath you')?
If you are trying to be scientific, then you should have a replacement for any theory which you object to.
Are you opting out of this one, Asyncritus?
If you can't talk Science then why come on a Science Forum?

Sorry Sophie, I thought I had answered the questions in my previous post, though not directly to you. As that didn't get through here are the answers again:

1 I believe that the world was created in great bursts of creative activity at unspecified times in the past, but in accordance with the Genesis 1 and 2 records. I am an Old Earth Creationist by persuasion.

2 The timescale is enormous

3 The created 'kinds' (I read our modern taxon 'families' for 'kinds') had considerable but limited amounts of variability built in, as we see today.

4 Because I can't or won't produce a good egg is no reason for me to eat your bad one, if you can grasp the meaning of that little parable.

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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #154 on: 03/01/2009 20:20:44 »
Atavisms prove nothing. Here's a most unpleasant one - what do you think it proves?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7791321.stm
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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #155 on: 03/01/2009 20:29:26 »
A
Can you argue, mathematically, against what the following link is saying?
http://www.creationtheory.org/Probability/Home.xhtml

You say you can do maths - force yourself to read the details; it may do you good.

Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe (both reasonably good mathematicians) said:

"an enzyme consisting of 300 residues could be formed by random shuffling of residues, and calculate a value of 10^250, which becomes 10^500000 if one takes account of the need for 2000 different enzymes in a bacterial cell. Comparing this calculation with the total of 10^79 atoms in the observable universe, they conclude that life must be a cosmological phenomenon."

Whoever wrote your little article should have his calculator taken away if he's trying to somehow diminish the probabilities given above.
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Offline RD

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #156 on: 03/01/2009 20:40:56 »
Atavisms prove nothing. Here's a most unpleasant one - what do you think it proves?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7791321.stm


That's not an atavism, it's either "foetus in foetu" or a teratoma.

A structure can only be described as an atavism if there was an ancestor with the same feature...

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atavism (plural atavisms) The reappearance of an ancestral characteristic in an organism after several generations of absence.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atavism

So unless you have evidence of numerous human fossils with feet growing out of their head, then the case you sited is not an atavism.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2009 20:46:48 by RD »

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lyner

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #157 on: 04/01/2009 00:29:29 »
Asyncritus
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1 I believe that the world was created in great bursts of creative activity at unspecified times in the past, but in accordance with the Genesis 1 and 2 records. I am an Old Earth Creationist by persuasion.
So, basically, you accept all the Science which you can grasp, at the moment, as real Science but, when you come across something too hard to grasp, you say that God stepped in.
That, presumably means that, had you lived 200 years ago, you would have believed a lot more of what we now call Science as totally down to God. You most certainly wouldn't have accepted Genetics as even a wild possibility; it would have had to be divine.
It also implies that you would put a bit less down to God if you were to live 500 years in the future.
You offer no positive proof for your ideas- just attempts to refute other people's scientific ideas. Be honest. If that's what you believe then just say it's faith and not grounded on any evidence.
I did ask you to go over that link in detail; you clearly didn't because you made no comment on the details on probabilities and how it is so easy to do inappropriate calculations. It is the details which count, you know. I thought you were supposed to have studied statistics. Perhaps you are the one who needs a calculator; you could repeat the calculations and see that they work rather than just quoting someone else's view based on an unspecified calculation.

Why are you involving yourself with people who favour Science? Are you after converting us all?
« Last Edit: 04/01/2009 00:33:43 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #158 on: 04/01/2009 11:09:21 »
 
Asyncritus
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1 I believe that the world was created in great bursts of creative activity at unspecified times in the past, but in accordance with the Genesis 1 and 2 records. I am an Old Earth Creationist by persuasion.

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So, basically, you accept all the Science which you can grasp, at the moment, as real Science but, when you come across something too hard to grasp, you say that God stepped in.

I accept all science which is provable - at least in my own field of |Biology. I have an acute sense and ability to recognise nonsense when I read it - and evolutionary Biology is loaded to the gunwales with such material.

I may also point out that the half-baked, nonsensical 'replies' to the biological FACTS which I have presented are typical of the lousy quality of evolutionary biological thought exhibited in the textbooks. Your fanciful hypotheses are presented as 'facts' and 'explanations' and 'refutations'. It is as GG Simpson said:

"It is inherent in any definition of science that statements that cannot be checked by observation are not really saying anything — or at least they are not science."—*George G. Simpson

Your collective efforts are merely examples of the above and stand roundly condemned as non-science: which sounds alarmingly similar to non-sense.

Now notice how irrelevant to the facts that I am presenting is the following personal attack. You have nothing to say about instinct, but are descending to your imaginative reconstruction of what 'I would have thought' 200 years ago.

Why not stick to the scientific facts I have brought forward, and give up with the personalities? The answer, of course, is that there IS no science which supports the evolutionary nonsense you all espouse.
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That, presumably means that, had you lived 200 years ago, you would have believed a lot more of what we now call Science as totally down to God. You most certainly wouldn't have accepted Genetics as even a wild possibility; it would have had to be divine.
It also implies that you would put a bit less down to God if you were to live 500 years in the future.
You offer no positive proof for your ideas- just attempts to refute other people's scientific ideas. Be honest. If that's what you believe then just say it's faith and not grounded on any evidence.

This is a pure lie, and you should know that it is. If I did not believe in God, I still would not believe in evolution - it is such trashy nonsense. Are you aware of the fact that the rejectors of Darwin's theory when it was published did not reject it on religious grounds, but on purely scientific ones? Cuvier, Owen, Agassiz and Lyell to name but 4, wanted nothing to do with it, and they were not religious men. For a fuller discussion of that fact, read Denton's 'Evolution: A Theory In Crisis' and wake up to the truth that it is the facts that destroy the theory, not religious preconceptions.

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I did ask you to go over that link in detail; you clearly didn't because you made no comment on the details on probabilities and how it is so easy to do inappropriate calculations. It is the details which count, you know. I thought you were supposed to have studied statistics. Perhaps you are the one who needs a calculator; you could repeat the calculations and see that they work rather than just quoting someone else's view based on an unspecified calculation.

I am far inferior to Hoyle and Wickramasinghe as far as statistics are concerned. They knew exactly what they were doing, and showed just how foolish the whole idea of abiogenesis and evolution really are.

You, I take it, have no statistical training, and yet you are trying to tell me that this gentleman knows enough to challenge Hoyle and Wickramasinghe's points. On what basis have you formed that judgment? It certainly wasn't an informed judgment.

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Why are you involving yourself with people who favour Science? Are you after converting us all?

I am not writing for you supporters of evolution. Nothing will change a view that is set in concrete. I am writing for the benefit and information of the 8,000 or so viewers who have visited this particular topic. If they are uncommitted, maybe they will at least see the sense of what I'm saying, even if you can't.
« Last Edit: 04/01/2009 11:11:00 by Asyncritus »
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lyner

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #159 on: 04/01/2009 14:25:36 »
Having rejected evolution as being unscientific on what you call 'scientific' grounds, have you any 'scientific' grounds, whatsoever for your version of what happened?
If you did not believe in a God then (you introduced that idea) what evidence would you have for ANY other explanation of  what you see around you?
It seems that you want it both ways. We are stupid to accept evolution and yet you need give no evidence for an alternative explanation.

People frequently follow 'loony' threads; they can be entertaining.  Don't kid yourself that you are gaining any converts, though. How many supporting posts have you had?

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Offline BenV

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #160 on: 04/01/2009 14:29:30 »
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Cuvier, Owen, Agassiz and Lyell to name but 4, wanted nothing to do with it, and they were not religious men.

Cuvier disagreed with Lamarckian evolution, and died before Origin was published.

Owen believed in creation, and that man was special amongst animals - so obviously wouldn't accept evolution.

I don't know a lot about Agassiz, but wikipedia informs me that you are right - he didn't accept evolution.  He did think different races were created in separate events though.

Lyell was a good friend of Darwin's, and helped and encourage him to publish.  He was conservative about accepting natural selection, as he also held man as special in nature - quite understandable for the time, as we knew far less about genetics than we do now.

Science is essentially conservative - evolution was new to these people, and didn't have as much research and evidence behind it as it does now.  Science is dynamic, and hypothesis are re-evaluated in the light of new evidence. As such, it is wise to be conservative.

Sophiecentaur is quite right, you know - there are a few people reading these threads yet nobody has come out to support you.

I think I've said this before, but you choose to believe in god despite the fact that it is entirely non-falsifiable, and evidently nothing to do with science.  Why do you think you have the right to complain about what you perceive as non-science, while admitting that you do not require evidence for the beliefs you hold to be true?

Again, we can observe evolution in the wild and in the lab - we can make predictions based on our understanding of evolution that come true.  Evolution is a well evinced scientific theory, which supports and is supported by the facts.

This is at least the third time I've said this in this thread, but you seem to ignore it every time - it's the answer to the main question of this thread.  Instinct is reactive behaviour - behaviour is under genetic control (as can be seen by breeding knock out mice who do not show fear, for example).  We know that genes pass from one generation to the next, and that genes for an advantageous behaviour are more likely to be passed on, and so will be come more common in the population.  There's nothing to complain about there - mice who are not afraid of cats will not live long enough to breed - mice who are instinctively afraid of cats will live long enough to breed - therefore, there is a selective advantage, and we would expect to see instinctive fear becoming more common in a population of mice.  More complicated instincts will have more complicated pathways.

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lyner

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #161 on: 05/01/2009 11:16:23 »
Asyncritus

You describe one of my posts as a "personal attack" yet you are more than happy to bandy around words like "nonsensical", "lousy" and "fanciful". Try to apply the same rules to yourself please.

I notice that you seem to shy away from  offering any details of what you believe is true.
Your statement -
"I believe that the world was created in great bursts of creative activity at unspecified times in the past, but in accordance with the Genesis 1 and 2 records. I am an Old Earth Creationist by persuasion."
- is very woolly. There is no information, no precision and no 'workings' in (any of) your statements - just rantings and non-specific quoting of a few named, eminent, past Scientists who, we can be sure, would have been more than prepared to get 'specific' in their arguments.

"Ya boo sucks"  or "my Dad can fight your Dad" are not arguments in favour of or against any idea yet that is virtually all you can come up with. If you can't address specific numerical arguments in your own terms then any argument you make is not valid. You clearly didn't understand the implications of the sums in 'that link' so you are not in a position to reject it on any basis other than your faith.
We could all stack up a list of big-named supporters of each view and weigh the results on some scales - what would that prove? On a Science Forum we are, surely, trying to examine the arguments in specific (although, on occasions, amateurish) detail because that is what interests Scientists at all levels. Your arguments all seem to be delivered through a magaphone; you offer assertions, not discussion.

Why do I get the feeling that you have not taken on board a single one of the arguments against your  ('anti')theory? Could it be a 'fingers in ears "la la la"' situation?
« Last Edit: 05/01/2009 11:31:07 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #162 on: 05/01/2009 16:45:27 »
Atavisms prove nothing. Here's a most unpleasant one - what do you think it proves?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7791321.stm


That's not an atavism, it's either "foetus in foetu" or a teratoma.

A structure can only be described as an atavism if there was an ancestor with the same feature...

Can you prove that there wasn't?

Quote
atavism (plural atavisms) The reappearance of an ancestral characteristic in an organism after several generations of absence.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atavism

Then the argument that says the whale with legs is an atavism is question-begging, as you are question dodging in the above example. Preconceptions prove nothing.

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So unless you have evidence of numerous human fossils with feet growing out of their head, then the case you sited is not an atavism.

I've never heard a count, but I'm certain that there are many.
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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #163 on: 05/01/2009 17:06:13 »
 
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Asyncritus

You describe one of my posts as a "personal attack" yet you are more than happy to bandy around words like "nonsensical", "lousy" and "fanciful". Try to apply the same rules to yourself please.

In case you missed it,

a. your supporters have been more than happy to be exceedingly offensive, and a bit of retaliation may not be amiss, but long overdue. But

b. I am describing your arguments as lousy, nonsensical and fanciful. I don't know you, and therefore I cannot possibly be insulting you personally.
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I notice that you seem to shy away from  offering any details of what you believe is true.

I am a critic of evolution. It is my mission to demonstrate its fallaciousness. By elimination therefore, we arrive at divine creation. If you wish to swallow a bad egg, that is your affair.

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Your statement -
"I believe that the world was created in great bursts of creative activity at unspecified times in the past, but in accordance with the Genesis 1 and 2 records. I am an Old Earth Creationist by persuasion."
- is very woolly. There is no information, no precision and no 'workings' in (any of) your statements - just rantings and non-specific quoting of a few named, eminent, past Scientists who, we can be sure, would have been more than prepared to get 'specific' in their arguments.

So we're back to the personalities: 'rantings' is a good example. Kindly desist, or I shall have some more hard words to say.

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"Ya boo sucks"  or "my Dad can fight your Dad" are not arguments in favour of or against any idea yet that is virtually all you can come up with. If you can't address specific numerical arguments in your own terms then any argument you make is not valid. You clearly didn't understand the implications of the sums in 'that link' so you are not in a position to reject it on any basis other than your faith.

You clearly didn't understand Hoyle and Wickramasinghe's extremely clear statements. You are in no position to argue with them, and neither am I. Perhaps you'd like to get your statistician to comment on their errors, as you think they must be wrong.

I would like to remind you that the topic under discussion is How does Instinct Evolve. Please confine your remarks to the issue at hand and refrain from the personalities.

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We could all stack up a list of big-named supporters of each view and weigh the results on some scales - what would that prove? On a Science Forum we are, surely, trying to examine the arguments in specific (although, on occasions, amateurish) detail because that is what interests Scientists at all levels. Your arguments all seem to be delivered through a magaphone; you offer assertions, not discussion.

I note that you carefully refrain from specifics, especially when making such claims as 'we have refuted your arguments on many occasions'. Please furnish any such refutations with respect to the cliff swallows or the golden plovers.Or the yucca moth if you like.

Or stop talking for the sake of doing no credit to your case, such as it is.

You offer no arguments at all that are worthy of the name, so please produce some (with evidence, as Simpson demands) or concede the argument.

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Why do I get the feeling that you have not taken on board a single one of the arguments against your  ('anti')theory? Could it be a 'fingers in ears "la la la"' situation?

You get that feeling because you have not produced a single evidenced argument worthy of discussion. If you have, where is it?

BenV has been honest enough to acknowledge that he has no explanation to offer of some of these phenomena. Where is your admission or your supporting evidence? 'Evidence', mark you, not 'speculation'.


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Offline BenV

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #164 on: 05/01/2009 17:28:13 »
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I am a critic of evolution. It is my mission to demonstrate its fallaciousness. By elimination therefore, we arrive at divine creation. If you wish to swallow a bad egg, that is your affair.

Once more, divine creation is not a valid scientific explanation for life on Earth and isn't an alternative to evolution.  You consistently  ignore this fact.

Criticising evolution is fair enough - science should be critiqued.

My problem is this huge assumption that if evolution isn't the explanation, it must be your god.  How did you arrive at your religion's myth by elimination?  How did you eliminate the hindu, sikh or buddhist explanation? Or Norse, roman, scientologist, greek, Maasai, Discword, voodoo, aboriginal...

So although there is plenty of evidence for evolution along with some gaps, you chose to adhere to a particular idea for which there is no evidence, and creates more questions than it answers.  You then state vehemently the evolution is wrong.

Can you see why people get annoyed at you?

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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #165 on: 05/01/2009 18:01:35 »
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Cuvier, Owen, Agassiz and Lyell to name but 4, wanted nothing to do with it, and they were not religious men.

Owen's arguments against evolution were not religious ones, but based on his knowledge of comparative anatomy. That data obviously made him a critic of evolution. 

I was intrigued to read Prof.John A Davison saying (http://john.a.davison.free.fr/?p=13)

"Furthermore, there is not a scintilla of tangible evidence that natural selection, the cornerstone of the Darwinian model, ever had anything to do with organic evolution except to stabilize species for as long as possble. It has always been entirely anti-evolutionary as it still is today. How could natural selection conceivably have been involved in a structure which had not yet appeared? That is the question that St George Jackson Mivart asked 12 years after the publication of Darwin’s Origin of Species and it has yet to be answered for obvious reasons. That unanswerable question alone is lethal to the Darwinian hypothesis."

So where is your natural selection now?

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Cuvier disagreed with Lamarckian evolution, and died before Origin was published.

Cuvier's arguments are irrefutable to my mind. He pointed out in this connection that any alteration in the structure of say, a claw, would require that the talons became larger, the wrist bones become bigger and stronger, the forearm more powerful, the humerus bigger, the shoulder joint stronger and so he went on.

You people seem to think that hey presto, mutation occurs, a wing forms on a reptile somehow, and that's it! It can fly! Cuvier would have destroyed you root and branch, as he did Darwin and Lamarck's ideas.

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Owen believed in creation, and that man was special amongst animals - so obviously wouldn't accept evolution.

I don't know a lot about Agassiz, but wikipedia informs me that you are right - he didn't accept evolution.  He did think different races were created in separate events though.

Lyell was a good friend of Darwin's, and helped and encourage him to publish.  He was conservative about accepting natural selection, as he also held man as special in nature - quite understandable for the time, as we knew far less about genetics than we do now.

Had they known what we know about genetics now, Darwin would never have made it off the ground. Mendel's work would have seen to that. Unfortunately...

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Science is essentially conservative - evolution was new to these people, and didn't have as much research and evidence behind it as it does now.  Science is dynamic, and hypothesis are re-evaluated in the light of new evidence. As such, it is wise to be conservative.

Sophiecentaur is quite right, you know - there are a few people reading these threads yet nobody has come out to support you.

I'm not surprised given the amount of flak your side has generated! Keeping the head well below the parapet is a good idea in these debates!

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I think I've said this before, but you choose to believe in god despite the fact that it is entirely non-falsifiable, and evidently nothing to do with science.  Why do you think you have the right to complain about what you perceive as non-science, while admitting that you do not require evidence for the beliefs you hold to be true?

I have the right to criticise a scientific theory on scientific grounds, which is what I'm doing, in pointing out the inadequacy of evolution to explain well-observed and measured facts of natural History. Unfortunately, rocking the boat doesn't go down too well!

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Again, we can observe evolution in the wild and in the lab - we can make predictions based on our understanding of evolution that come true.  Evolution is a well evinced scientific theory, which supports and is supported by the facts.

Which evidence are you referring to?

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This is at least the third time I've said this in this thread, but you seem to ignore it every time - it's the answer to the main question of this thread.  Instinct is reactive behaviour

Instinct is not reactive behaviour, Ben. Yes, some instincts protect the species, but how can you possibly say that flying to Capistrano from Goya in Argentina is 'reactive behaviour'? Reactive to what? It is totally unnecessary, and is not a response to environmental factors. Winter temperatures in Southern California aren't sufficiently low to bother other swallows, so why do these leave, and why go so far?

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- behaviour is under genetic control- behaviour is under genetic control (as can be seen by breeding knock out mice who do not show fear, for example).  We know that genes pass from one generation to the next, and that genes for an advantageous behaviour are more likely to be passed on, and so will be come more common in the population.  There's nothing to complain about there - mice who are not afraid of cats will not live long enough to breed - mice who are instinctively afraid of cats will live long enough to breed - therefore, there is a selective advantage, and we would expect to see instinctive fear becoming more common in a population of mice.  More complicated instincts will have more complicated pathways.

But you have run into the age-old question: HOW DID THE BEHAVIOUR GET INTO THE GENES? Natural selection is no help at all, especially in the vastly complicated behaviours of the swallows and plovers, the red knots and arctic terns too. It cannot be involved in with characteristics which have not appeared as yet, such as the non-existent ability to navigate to Capistrano when it wasn't there.

Natural selection stabilises populations: it does not introduce new elements, merely destroys or retains ALREADY EXISTING features. So where did those features come from?

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #166 on: 05/01/2009 18:32:08 »
We pointed out solid evidence for new features appearing in genes over time - Lenski's long term e-coli evolution experiment, where e coli developed the ability to digest citrate.  We do keep presenting evidence to you, but you ignore it.

Avatisms, vestigial limbs, drug resistant bacteria, peppered moths (the recent re-working), genetic clocks, comparative biology (the fact that most insect mouthparts are an adaptation of the same basic set, for example)... there are many facts which evince evolution.

As I've said before, even if there was new evidence that evolution could not be the process by which life on earth diversified, you would still be wrong.  creationism will never be a valid alternative.  Why don't you try to find one?

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #167 on: 05/01/2009 18:33:25 »
In fact, please do a google search for evidence of evolution - there's loads of it out there that I don't see why I should collate for you.

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lyner

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #168 on: 05/01/2009 18:57:03 »
Asyncritus

How can you be so short sighted?
You only seem to discuss the successful outcomes of genetic change. The failures were the ones which didn't have a survival advantage. They didn't live to reproduce as successfully. I don't think you have appreciated what evolution by 'natural selection' really involves.
I think you are really kidding yourself when you say that you wouldn't believe in evolution even if you had no belief in a God. You have admitted, yourself, that you have no alternative which doesn't involve a  creator. So what would you have gone for?

You are still looking for some 'purpose' in evolution. That is your mistake because there doesn't need to be one. Looking for a purpose is no different from looking for a God. I see both as mis guided but the former is far less reasonable.

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lyner

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #169 on: 06/01/2009 13:32:34 »
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Had they known what we know about genetics now, Darwin would never have made it off the ground. Mendel's work would have seen to that. Unfortunately...

I've just spotted this.
Perhaps Asyncritus could explain that statement. How do the two views not support each other?

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #170 on: 06/01/2009 15:20:40 »
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You people seem to think that hey presto, mutation occurs, a wing forms on a reptile somehow, and that's it! It can fly! Cuvier would have destroyed you root and branch, as he did Darwin and Lamarck's ideas.

One of the most common arguments of creationists, born of an incorrect interpretation of how evolution works. No evolutionist will say that a wing will spontaneously form in one generation.

Watch this video for some education on the subject.
Richard Dawkins on the Evolution of Wings - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrlhrbUxiMs

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Offline nolabel

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #171 on: 06/01/2009 17:28:39 »
The meaning of life is - life is.

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #172 on: 06/01/2009 17:43:31 »
It's 42.

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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #173 on: 06/01/2009 18:02:40 »
Ben, after 31,500 generations E.coli was still E.coli. Yeah, it could metabolise citrate - but Behe has pointed out that the gene does exist in the wild strains, and had been deactivated. It merely regained its functionality, and wasn't anything new.

So I'm afraid you're still stuck with the old question. If 31,500 generations failed to produce a single new species, then where did all the thousands of Cambrian species come from?
« Last Edit: 06/01/2009 18:04:13 by Asyncritus »
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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #174 on: 06/01/2009 18:04:44 »
It's 42.

Nah, 43. That's a prime number!
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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #175 on: 06/01/2009 18:07:07 »
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You people seem to think that hey presto, mutation occurs, a wing forms on a reptile somehow, and that's it! It can fly! Cuvier would have destroyed you root and branch, as he did Darwin and Lamarck's ideas.

One of the most common arguments of creationists, born of an incorrect interpretation of how evolution works. No evolutionist will say that a wing will spontaneously form in one generation.

Watch this video for some education on the subject.
Richard Dawkins on the Evolution of Wings - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrlhrbUxiMs

Dawkins has nothing intelligent to say on the evolution of wings, apart from his usual question-begging counter-factualism. Why doesn't he debate the subject here, for instance, or with Yahya, instead of feeding gullible undergraduates the usual tripe?

Why not look here: http://www.harunyahya.com/evolution06.php Far more sense to be had.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2009 18:10:10 by Asyncritus »
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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #176 on: 06/01/2009 18:12:37 »
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Had they known what we know about genetics now, Darwin would never have made it off the ground. Mendel's work would have seen to that. Unfortunately...

I've just spotted this.
Perhaps Asyncritus could explain that statement. How do the two views not support each other?

Easy. There is no mixing of characters possible. Dominance and recessiveness reduce that idea to rubble, and Mendel was the discoverer.
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Offline BenV

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« Reply #177 on: 06/01/2009 18:25:09 »
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Had they known what we know about genetics now, Darwin would never have made it off the ground. Mendel's work would have seen to that. Unfortunately...

I've just spotted this.
Perhaps Asyncritus could explain that statement. How do the two views not support each other?

Easy. There is no mixing of characters possible. Dominance and recessiveness reduce that idea to rubble, and Mendel was the discoverer.
I'm not sure that's a correct interpretation, especially as only certain characteristcs have been shown to have true, full, dominant and recessive alleles.

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Ben, after 31,500 generations E.coli was still E.coli. Yeah, it could metabolise citrate - but Behe has pointed out that the gene does exist in the wild strains, and had been deactivated. It merely regained its functionality, and wasn't anything new.
Is this a misinterpretation, an exaggeration or a lie?  Lenski hasn't yet sequenced and identified the particular gene, as Behe acknowledges, and although there have been prior mutations that allowed e-coli to digest citrate, I think you're missing the point - the genes to do this weren't there, just waiting to be switched on, they perform a different function.

I'm sorry to say that you have asked us a question, we have provided a summary of the current scientific explanation, and you do not accept it because of your preconception that god did it.  You fail to address our questions and totally ignore the fact that science and religion are different paradigms.  I find it very frustrating, because I know that you are not at all willing to take on board any of this, so anti-evolution is your mindset.  Why should we bother?

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #178 on: 06/01/2009 18:30:39 »
Quote
Had they known what we know about genetics now, Darwin would never have made it off the ground. Mendel's work would have seen to that. Unfortunately...

I've just spotted this.
Perhaps Asyncritus could explain that statement. How do the two views not support each other?

Easy. There is no mixing of characters possible. Dominance and recessiveness reduce that idea to rubble, and Mendel was the discoverer.

Could you explain why?

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Offline _Stefan_

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #179 on: 07/01/2009 06:28:24 »
Anyone who thinks Yahya has anything of value to say about science has lost all credibility as an intellectual.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #180 on: 07/01/2009 13:32:42 »
Yahya's website is just typical ranting and every other word is loaded with 'extra meaning'.
He must make a lot of money if he manages to sell all his books . . .  Perhaps in my Xmas stocking next time.

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Offline fbi7000

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #181 on: 07/01/2009 16:08:01 »
Hello everybody,
Just want to thank this thread for forcing me to sign up to the naked science website, I simply had to post something!
Firstly, sophiecentaur. Whilst I agree with your views on evolution and for the most part agree with your points, please stop arguing with Asyncritus. Each argument you bring simply adds more fuel to the fire and alot of good points made are being swallowed up as Asyncritus simply chooses to pick apart tiny flaws in your responses. That is simply the way of creationists in my experience.
To continue, I may be off the mark here but I was of the opinion that there is no place for faith in science, science must be supported by facts otherwise it is deemed to be untrue. Anything based upon faith cannot be accepted. And so with this in mind I ask (and will ask nothing else untill I have an answer from Asyncritus):

Why do you accept the Christian explanation of the diversity of life and not the explanation of any other religion?

(I have seperated the question and put it in bold so that I am not confusing anyone, all I require is a straightforward answer to this one question.)

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #182 on: 07/01/2009 17:37:26 »
Welcome to the forums fbi7000, now that you've signed up, you might as well hang around :P

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lyner

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« Reply #183 on: 07/01/2009 19:23:00 »
Hi fbi

I agree with you - and also about it being a bad thing to bother with Asyncritus! It's a moth to a flame, I'm afraid.
I was thinking about the differences between Science and Religion(s).
Science is, necessarily, conservative but quite prepared to turn totally inside out, eventually, once provided with sufficient evidence.(pragmatic)
Religion(s), on the other hand, are conservative but bend and stretch when Science gives them no alternative but to accommodate new data whilst still being convinced that they haven't changed substantially. (dogmatic)

Individuals in both camps can be as bad as each other - ultra-conservative and yet determined not to change AT ALL or even to deny that there has been any change.

Of course, many very eminent Scientists have Faith and I would say that their Religion is of the most reasonable kind. The problem is that the more we learn about the brain / mind, even the highest levels of altruism, moral behaviour etc  are being explained mechanistically. I have no problem with this but I can see how it may scare some people to death.
« Last Edit: 07/01/2009 23:46:06 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #184 on: 08/01/2009 04:55:50 »
Indeed, I think most religious people are scared to allow themselves to be convinced by the evidence because of its implications, it may turn their whole world upside down (or the right way up, as I see it). But it is better to live in reality than an upside-down world.

I saw an excellent youtube video the other day about this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9XntsSEro

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lyner

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« Reply #185 on: 08/01/2009 18:29:01 »
I wonder if Asyncritus could get to the end of that link and actually take in what it says.

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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #186 on: 10/01/2009 20:37:31 »
Quote
I'm not sure that's a correct interpretation, especially as only certain characteristcs have been shown to have true, full, dominant and recessive alleles.

Let's think about the genes for scales turning into the genes for feathers.

For the feather characteristic to become universal in the new PHYLUM it has to be extraordinarily dominant and pervasive somehow.

So let's say that F (for scales) has somehow become f (for feathers).

Since F is completely uniform and dominant in the reptilia for scales, then feathers cannot become manifest in the F1 generation, since we now have:

FF x Ff ----> FF, FF, Ff and Ff the only variants possible.

In the F2 generation, ff appears in the ratio 1 feathered to 15 scaled.

The scales are dominant and remain so, and the feathered are rare birds if you pardon the pun.

So what do they breed with? Nothing, and are selected out, not only because of the genetic peculiarity, but because of Cuvier's idea - a single change REQUIRES a considerable number of consequential changes if it is going to survive.

So a reptile with an normal forelimb moving from front to back in a plane more or less parallel to the animal's body, has to generate a flapping movement AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE ORIGINAL PLANE.

The pectoral musculature required for flight is totally different to that required for normal reptilian movement. The sternum has to change into a keel; the construction of the whole forelimb has to alter; the claws of the reptile's forelimb have to disappear; at least 3 different types of flight feather have to be produced, and that does not begin to count the down feathers, the contour feathers and the eyelashes. The eyelids have somehow to produce a nicitating membrane.

The hind limbs have to become totally modified, and a hallux produced.

Now flight has to be powered by instinct.Somehow the reptile has to know how to fly, or even glide - but I have this picture of the first bird looking at the first wings and thinking, Now what the hell do I do with these?

The instincts ruling flight are necessarily complex, and cannot be acquired by 'natural selection' - because there was nothing in the reptiles to be selected!

Somehow the leathery reptilian egg has to be converted into the hard-shelled avian egg. Somehow, the cold blooded reptile metabolism has to be converted into the highest metabolic rate in the animal kingdom, in the warmblooded birds.

Oh, I mustn't forget. The reptilian respiratory system has to be comprehensively wrecked and the one way avian system substituted.

And to add insult to already painful evolutionary injury, some birds have to learn how to fly from Goya in Argentina, to Capistrano in southern California, a distance of 7,500 miles, and arrive there on the same day every year.

How many 'mutations' do you see being needed to perform this major miracle of biological conversion? Mendel showed that there can be no halfway house, because red flowers crossed with white flowers don't produce pink flowers. They produce more red and white flowers.

So a scaled reptile, if it ever crosses with a feathered creature will not produce a half-feathered pro-avis.

The whole thing is totally absurd, and should not receive any scientific credence even in the most faithful (and I use the word advisedly).

As for Lenski. Lenski signally failed to produce a new species in 31,500 cultivated generations of E.coli. It is immaterial whether they metbolised citrate or not - they were still E. coli. Now to do the calculation:

If 31,500 generations produces no new species, how many generations does it take to produce 1 million new species?

Well, according to my calculations the answer is an infinite number i.e. it cannot happen. Now gainsay that if you can.Remember, this is based on scientifically verified evidence, published, I think - though I may be wrong here - in PNAS, a well thought of rag, I gather.

You are compelled to bother because of the simple facts that are evident to anybody who will take the blinkers off and simply look. Hasn't it occurred to you yet that Lenski has proven quite categorically that evolution cannot have occurred? When are you going to see that?

I didn't publish the paper - Lenski did. You might like to look at this criticism of the paper:
http://www.conservapedia.com/Lenski

And here's a piece of the PNAS abstract:

"No population evolved the capacity to exploit citrate for >30,000 generations, although each population tested billions of mutations. A citrate-using (Cit+) variant finally evolved in one population by 31,500 generations, causing an increase in population size and diversity."

As I said, no new species 'evolved'.

Evolution is firmly up a gum tree, and likely to stay there.


« Last Edit: 10/01/2009 21:28:53 by Asyncritus »
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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #187 on: 10/01/2009 20:49:12 »
Yahya's website is just typical ranting and every other word is loaded with 'extra meaning'.
He must make a lot of money if he manages to sell all his books . . .  Perhaps in my Xmas stocking next time.

Is it just ranting? Any more than Dawkins' site where the faithful all open wide and swallow?

Have you ever looked seriously at what the man says, or are you knee-jerking again?

What, for example, do you make of his remarks about the avian lung?
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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #188 on: 10/01/2009 21:23:11 »
Hello everybody,
Just want to thank this thread for forcing me to sign up to the naked science website, I simply had to post something!

Hi fbi - welcome to the savage world of the naked scientists! - Where they savage me, I mean!

Let me first disagree with this comment:

Quote
To continue, I may be off the mark here but I was of the opinion that there is no place for faith in science, science must be supported by facts otherwise it is deemed to be untrue.

This is an absolutely correct statement. However, evolution is based on so much fantasising it's untrue. Here's Prof WR Thompson FRS:

"Darwin did not show in the Origin that species had originated by natural selection; he merely showed, on the basis of certain facts and assumptions, how this might have happened,and as he had convinced himself he was able to convince others."

He went on to say: "Thus are engendered those fragile towers of hypothesis based on hypothesis, where fact and fiction intermingle in an inextricable confusion."

from his Introduction to the Origin of Species.

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Anything based upon faith cannot be accepted.
 

And therefore, you cannot accept evolution, which is a faith, not a provable fact.

"It is therefore a matter of faith, on the part of the biologist, that biogenesis did occur and he can choose whatever method of biogenesis happens to suit him personally; the evidence of what did happen is not available."—*G.A. Kerkut, Implications of Evolution (1960), p. 150.

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory—is it then a science or faith?"—*L.H. Matthews, "Introduction to Origin of the Species, by *Charles Darwin (1971 edition), pp. x, xi (1971 edition).

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone . . exactly the same sort of faith which it is necessary to have when one encounters the great mysteries of religion."—*Louis Trenchard More, quoted in Science and the Two-tailed Dinosaur, p. 33

"The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith."—*J.W.N. Sullivan, Limitations of Science p. 95.

"Evolution requires plenty of faith; a faith in L-proteins that defy chance formation; a faith in the formation of DNA codes which, if generated spontaneously, would spell only pandemonium; a faith in a primitive environment that, in reality, would fiendishly devour any chemical precursors to life; a faithin experiments that prove nothing but the need for intelligence in the beginning; a faith in a primitive ocean that would not thicken, but would only haplessly dilute chemicals; a faith in natural laws of thermodynamics and biogenesis that actually deny the possibility for the spontaneous generation of life; a faith in future scientific revelations that, when realized, always seem to present more dilemmas to the evolutionists; faith in improbabilities that treasonously tell two stories—one denying evolution, the other confirming the Creator; faith in transformations that remain fixed; faithin mutations and natural selection that add to a double negative for evolution; faith in fossils that embarrassingly show fixity through time, regular absence of transitional forms and striking testimony to a worldwide water deluge; a faith in time which proves to only promote degradation in the absence of mind; and faith in reductionism that ends up reducing the materialist's arguments to zero and forcing the need to invoke a supernatural Creator."—R.L. Wysong, The Creation-Evolution Controversy (1981), p. 455.

Now, what say you?

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And so with this in mind I ask (and will ask nothing else untill I have an answer from Asyncritus):

Why do you accept the Christian explanation of the diversity of life and not the explanation of any other religion?

This leaves the realms of science, and enters the realm of theology.

I have what I consider to be extremely solid grounds for believing that the Bible is the Word of God. A great deal of this hinges on the fact of the resurrection of Christ, which is the cornerstone of Christianity. Hence, I believe the biblical account of things, as best I understand it. If you wish to discuss this further, then a new thread will be in order.

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Offline Asyncritus

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #189 on: 10/01/2009 21:24:35 »
Anyone who thinks Yahya has anything of value to say about science has lost all credibility as an intellectual.

Can you explain why, please?
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Offline BenV

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« Reply #190 on: 10/01/2009 22:09:40 »
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If you wish to discuss this further, then a new thread will be in order.
A thread that would be entirely inappropriate on a science forum - we've already gone a long way off topic, so I don't see why you shouldn't post the evidence for your ideas here.

So we can conclude that you feel evolution is a religion, rather than a science, and you are not alone, great.  However, evolution is the current scientific explanation, regardless of whether you disagree or not - and you must accept that creation will never be a valid scientific alternative though, musn't you?

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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #191 on: 11/01/2009 15:30:08 »
Ben

fbi asked the question. Not me. I'm merely answering as best I can.
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Offline BenV

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« Reply #192 on: 11/01/2009 15:53:10 »
No you're not, you're refusing to answer the question.  While you're at it, could you answer some of mine too?  Such as:
How can you claim to arrive at the Christian creation myth by eliminating evolution, but not any of the many other creation myths?

Do you accept that creation is a theological construct and not a scientific explanation, regardless of your opinion on evolution?

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I have what I consider to be extremely solid grounds for believing that the Bible is the Word of God.
And if you're arguing that creation is to be accepted as a scientific explanation, lets see your (objective) evidence.

I also have a new question.  If an alternative biological mechanism to evolution was to be found, and very strongly scientifically evinced, but it still did not involve a god/gods - would you accept that explanation?  I suspect that anything that clashes with your creationist beliefs would be unacceptable to you, regaredless of the weight of objective evidence behind it.

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How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #193 on: 12/01/2009 19:29:01 »
Asyncritus
Do you acknowledge that there have been extinctions in the past and that  there is no evidence that 'modern' species existed 100 million years ago?

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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #194 on: 16/01/2009 02:12:41 »
There is considerable evidence that modern species existed 400 million years ago.

The coelacanth is a modern fish swimming about today in the Indian ocean and elsewhere, but it existed 400 mya. "A 400 million-year-old fossil of a coelacanth fin, the first finding of its kind.." http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/070816/coelacanth.shtml

Yes there have been extinctions galore.

So where are we going with that?

I recommend that you read yahya on living fossils:

http://www.fossil-museum.com/
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« Reply #195 on: 16/01/2009 10:55:07 »
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There is considerable evidence that modern species existed 400 million years ago.
A very small proportion of the current set, though, and in 'niche' environments - which is just what evolutionary theory would predict. The word "considerable" is much too woolly: how many? Give us "considerable" examples.

So where did all the modern species, of which we can't find ancient fossils, come from? Were they 'strategically introduced' at a later date?

You are remarkably reluctant to paint any sort of detailed model of  your ideas. It would help if you were to flesh it out so that it can be compared, evidentially, with the evolutionary one. Failing that, you have no excuse for introducing your ideas into a Science forum.
« Last Edit: 16/01/2009 10:57:09 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #196 on: 16/01/2009 18:09:45 »
"...and that  there is no evidence that 'modern' species existed 100 million years ago?"

Wrong again, I see. Heh heh.

The reason why we don't find 'ancestors' of the modern species is simply because THERE AREN'T ANY - certainly not at family level and above.

Yahya has 83 PAGES of fossils that haven't changed one bit since forever ago.

Do have a look and let me know what you think AFTER you have had a look.

I am not painting any model because as I've said before, my function is to show that evolution cannot have occurred for any number of excellent scientific reasons.

As I said, there are only 2 possible models available to us:

1 Evolution

2 Creation.

I've never heard of any other that makes any sense at all.

The reductio ad absurdum is the type of argument I am using. I have shown that evolution is absurd at many different levels, and therefore, as Sherlock Holmes said, when we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, HOWEVER IMPROBABLE, must be the truth.

I'm sure you've felt the force of many of the facts, the evidence I have adduced, and you know that there isn't a hope of evolution ever explaining any of them.

The theory is therefore absurd and must be dismissed. The 'whatever remains' is Creation. In your collective eyes this is IMPROBABLE, but since it is the only theory left standing, then it must be the truth.

I personally see no alternative, but you clearly do not agree. Why is that, I wonder. Could blind prejudice be playing a major part here?
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Offline BenV

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« Reply #197 on: 16/01/2009 18:30:28 »
Which creation myth?  I like the aboriginal ones.  They are equally as valid as the Christian ones.

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #198 on: 16/01/2009 18:38:49 »
As I said, there are only 2 possible models available to us:

1 Evolution

2 Creation.

I've never heard of any other that makes any sense at all.
You must remember that to someone who does not believe in god, creation falls into the category of 'things that don't make any sense at all'.

Creation is not a scientific alternative, so if we are looking for a scientific explanation, then your options leave us only evolution.

Please, if you feel creation is a science, supply some positive evidence - there isn't any, of course, as it's theistic construction and not a scientific hypothesis, so I wish you luck.

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Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #199 on: 16/01/2009 18:43:15 »
Which creation myth?  I like the aboriginal ones.  They are equally as valid as the Christian ones.

There can only be one that is correct. As you may or may not know, there is a huge array of fables and nonsense stories. Here is a collection. You're welcome to take your pick.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=collection+of+creation+myths&meta=&btnG=Google+Search
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