Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #100 on: 10/02/2009 10:55:00 »
Hahaha.

You have to be joking.

Terrorism is a form of hostility. Humans have always been hostle to enemies.

Those things can hardly be called immoral, unless you have a 1st century mindset.

Evidence for drug abuse dates back to the Stone Ages.

Lack of regard for others? Come on.

As for your ideas of "proof", you won't get anywhere with them.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline BenV

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #101 on: 10/02/2009 11:20:15 »
I hope are not too sidetracked from what we started talking about. i.e the origin of matter.

Um... have you got the wrong thread?  We weren't discussing the origin of matter at all.

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #102 on: 10/02/2009 12:25:27 »
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As to the rest: viruses have always plagued humans; humans have always performed hostile acts towards others, and terrorists are actually not a major cause of death; Climate change is the only phenomenon which can even remotely fit your criteria, but it hardly promotes your cause, because the earth has experienced multiple dramatic climate fluctuations before.

You're arguing any facts and trying to explain them before you really think about them. You sound like you're having a chat with Jim Jones or David Koresh. I'm just an ordinary guy and these facts I'm pulling out are just to answer some of the arguments guys have brought forward.

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #103 on: 10/02/2009 12:37:22 »
You mean you're pulling those facts out of thin air.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #104 on: 10/02/2009 13:37:35 »
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You mean you're pulling those facts out of thin air.

Basically we all agree they are 'facts'. Some would argue even their own existence just to cling to their belief there is no God, that everything came from nothing.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 13:49:46 by demadone »

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #105 on: 10/02/2009 13:49:01 »
Your facts are either wrong, or not used in the correct context / misused to support dubious arguments.

Not all facts are true.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #106 on: 10/02/2009 13:57:21 »
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Not all facts are true.

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FACT: a thing that is indisputably the case

Concise oxford dictionary

Hope you won't stand by your phrase because it is not true.

I just wanted you to pick out what I may be misusing as a fact or whatever fact may be misinterpreting as evidence of worsening world events. Don't get depressed with my tone. That is not at all my intention.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 14:31:08 by demadone »

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #107 on: 10/02/2009 16:02:19 »
By that I meant that not everything that is called a fact, is actually true. Some things can be asserted despite the state of the evidence.

I am trying to explain to you that your belief that things are worse now than they were 2000 years ago is demonstrably false in the developed world. Despite certain phenomena that we currently suffer from, our overall conditions are by far better than they used to be even 100 years ago. Thanks to our living conditions and modern medicine, we are living on average longer and healthier than ever before.

You are biased by the fact that you live in the present and so the disasters the world currently experiences are much more significant to you than those our ancestors experienced. Yet none of the types of disasters you describe are unique to the present, and people 2000 years ago suffered more from them. In this light, the "facts" you have presented do not support your argument.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #108 on: 11/02/2009 10:39:18 »
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Yet none of the types of disasters you describe are unique to the present, and people 2000 years ago suffered more from them

I'm think about the world wars and AIDS and shaking my head at your statement. I'm not suffering any of these but I know we have had major disasters of our own and they are much worse than what could be there before. The bible doesn't say they will happen at every square meter of the earth but they would be getting worse. Interestingly, it does too mention that people would refuse to take note.

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 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be (days of the end). For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
« Last Edit: 11/02/2009 10:41:16 by demadone »

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #109 on: 11/02/2009 10:51:10 »

Increase in the following is undeniable :
Terrorism
[The Bible is full of it and life on the Northwest Frontier was always that way)


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Immorality (including homosexuality, infidelity, pornography industry etc)
(Try Ancient Rome)


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Drug abuse
(Laudnum was pretty popular in Victorian times. Hashish has been around for a long time and regularly used. And when was drinking Alcohol first invented?  I think the Babylonians were quite keen on it.)

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Lark of regard for others
(On what evidence? Who cared for slaves - ever? Or foreigners, like Samaritans, for instance? )


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yet again I'm sure you can finish off the list yourself.
(It's your list and, so far it is zero length)



« Last Edit: 11/02/2009 12:35:53 by sophiecentaur »

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #110 on: 11/02/2009 10:54:26 »
But was your list devised in order to provide some statistical proof of the existence of a God?
To me, it looks more like a subjective justification. Fair enough, but don't expect it to convince me.

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #111 on: 11/02/2009 15:28:36 »
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(Laudnum was pretty popular in Victorian times. Hashish has been around for a long time and regularly used. And when was drinking Alcohol first invented?  I think the Babylonians were quite keen on it.)

Things have been bad in the past too indeed. Some were even destroyed for it like in the case of the global deluge. But the warning is that whenever these things will reach great extents, a lot worse than before in magnitude, then the end will come. I mean even scientists can tell that global warming is leaving life on earth on the balance.

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #112 on: 11/02/2009 15:47:39 »
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Increase in the following is undeniable :
Terrorism
(The Bible is full of it and life on the Northwest Frontier was always that way)

So who were the suicide bombers and did they manage to take on average 25 lives a day?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is similar to what you are referring to and I am not giving that as example.

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(Laudnum was pretty popular in Victorian times. Hashish has been around for a long time and regularly used. And when was drinking Alcohol first invented?  I think the Babylonians were quite keen on it.)

They used to have it yes. Babylon was destroyed by God for it.
Hashish. You may have heard of ecstasy or cocaine which are quite worse (not that hashish is OK).

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(Try Ancient Rome)
I decided to remove the comment... It is directed at some other topic of contention.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2009 08:08:31 by demadone »

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Offline BenV

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #113 on: 11/02/2009 16:11:11 »
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(Try Ancient Rome)
Try Netherlands with there homosexual population. I mean you must know that this is a really free society we are living in. Even churches now condone.
Here you're just exposing your bias.  There's nowt wrong with homosexuality whatsoever.  If two people are in love, I couldn't care less what gender they are.

I think most people on this site are fairly humanist about this sort of thing, what gives you the right to say that the way someone chooses to live their life is wrong?

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #114 on: 12/02/2009 08:15:18 »
I removed my comment about homosexual activity in recent times. Then if you're more comfortable about it, then I will redirect my attention to the pornography industry and how much access people have to such. They may have been quite loose in Rome but now the stuff is all over. Even just in my childhood, pornography was something you just heard about, now even 8 year old kids can quite easily access it.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2009 08:34:55 by demadone »

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Offline _Stefan_

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #115 on: 12/02/2009 08:47:01 »
In ancient times, 8 year old kids were approaching or had even reached marital age.

Your position is not defendable. Few if any of the ills you describe are unique to modern society.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #116 on: 12/02/2009 14:43:43 »
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Your position is not defendable. Few if any of the ills you describe are unique to modern society.
They are not unique but they are on the increase. Some may be explained to population increase, global warming and others to moral degradation (and I didn't come up with the phrase).

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #117 on: 12/02/2009 14:49:36 »
a large number of persons do not believe that God exists. And since many of these persons are scientists, some individuals jump to the conclusion that to believe in the existence of God the Creator is unscientific. Yet others think to be a real scientists (of astronomical proportions) you have to be Atheist. That's very unfortunate.

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Offline LeeE

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #118 on: 12/02/2009 16:41:22 »
You really shouldn't go back and edit old posts to change their content.  Quickly correcting a typo or re-phrasing the same thing to clarify the meaning is ok, but removing things you've already said some time ago can turn the thread in to meaningless gibberish as people may have already replied to stuff you've removed in the light of their comments.

If you subsequently realise that you were wrong about something, then just say so in the thread, so that the thread still makes sense.  Removing stuff from your old posts really looks like you're trying to hide a mistake and are re-writing history to fit with what you're currently saying or claiming.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline _Stefan_

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #119 on: 13/02/2009 03:09:33 »
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Your position is not defendable. Few if any of the ills you describe are unique to modern society.
They are not unique but they are on the increase. Some may be explained to population increase, global warming and others to moral degradation (and I didn't come up with the phrase).
This is nonsense. You have not demonstrated this to be true. You can hardly say that the net amount of ills experienced by each person per unit of time has increased since thousands of years ago. Give it up already.

a large number of persons do not believe that God exists. And since many of these persons are scientists, some individuals jump to the conclusion that to believe in the existence of God the Creator is unscientific. Yet others think to be a real scientists (of astronomical proportions) you have to be Atheist. That's very unfortunate.
You are making an appeal to authority. God-belief is not unscientific because some atheists are scientists, but because a god can not be investigated scientifically - there's just no evidence, and there are so many contradictions between the god concept and what is already understood about the physics of the universe. It's the same reason that belief in faeries and invisible pink unicorns is unscientific.
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 03:11:15 by _Stefan_ »
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demografx

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #120 on: 15/02/2009 22:31:51 »
what do you get if you cross and atheist and a Jehovah's witness?
Someone who knocks on your door for no reason.

Very good, Paul.

Have you heard about the insomniac who is agnostic and dyslexic?

Stays up all night wondering whether there really is a dog.

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Offline Astronomer_FB

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #121 on: 15/02/2009 23:49:14 »
You guys are forgetting the Qu'ran Muslims have so much proof of the book being right and prooving God or Allah.  It has signs of the day of judgment and it has not been wrong yet it told of the mongols attacking the Islamic empire and then making peace with them.  Then it says that the sun will rise on the west.  Scientist are now seeing that the earth is starting to slowly slow down and eventually it will stop and go the other way.  Mathematically I don't think you can prove God is real with numbers. 

By the way for the christians I was wondering I do not believe you guys have the original bible so how do you refer back to the original and make sure nothing is being messed with because in history there have been corrupt christian leader that could have tampered the bible and noone has an original to say "wait someone messed with the bible.".  Why are there so many kinds of christians , why when I ask someone what religon they are they say something besides christianity?

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Offline Astronomer_FB

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #122 on: 15/02/2009 23:54:44 »
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It could just as easily be interpreted as me getting my washing back from the laundry and finding that I haven't lost a sock.

It says in clear terms that matter resulted from energy. No 2 ways about it.

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The bible doesn't talk about science, it sticks to allusion, which is so open to interpretation as to make it meaningless in any absolute sense.  Incidentally, both the ancient Greeks and Asian Indians thought that the Earth was spherical.
You must have heard interpretations from guys who don't really know the bible. About Indians, it is common knowledge that they believed in an elephant with a turtle on it's back on whose back was the earth. Even just 500 years ago people were afraid of falling over the edge. And Philosophy was quite hot then.

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The difference between religion and science is that religion is all about belief, and furthermore, it requires a lack of proof; when you have proof you have knowledge and belief becomes redundant.  Science, on the other hand is all about knowledge, and it seeks proof.  Be careful not to confuse knowledge and belief; they are mutually exclusive.
Not true

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The lack of evidence for one.
You exist as proof. Singularity if it existed must have come from somewhere. Isaiah explains where.
Well the bible does not really have proof of its self being right or holy even though I do believe some of it is right but the Qu'ran does have eye witnesses of its holiness and the miracles of its time. They are called Hadiths look them up they are quotes from the time of prophet Mohamed(pbuh).
and so noone gets it mixed up Muslims do believe in Jesus  (pbuh).

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lyner

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #123 on: 16/02/2009 12:33:23 »
I have seen many Magic Tricks and I saw what I saw. The trick worked for me. That doesn't mean that there really was levitation and teleportation. Witnesses (especially in the dim and distant past) are actually worth zilch as a 'proof' of anything.
Old Moore's Almamanac is full of 'predictions', as are Astrologers' statements. If you are inventive enough, then you can link them to subsequent events but how often do they predict Derby winners of the state of the Stock Exchange? Are they all driving round in posher cars since the Credit Crunch arrived? Why didn't they know about it?
To prove something as important as the existence of a God it  would be necessary to do those same 'miracles' on demand and under laboratory conditions.
Why do you guys not just accept that you have faith and that that is enough for you?
I guess, if you are a Muslim, you would claim that the Koran is the right version and the others got it wrong. That's understandable. But show me a passage in that document which accurately predicts a modern event with complete lack of ambiguity.

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #124 on: 16/02/2009 15:22:48 »
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there are so many contradictions between the god concept and what is already understood about the physics of the universe.
It would be great to hear some examples Stef.

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You have not demonstrated this to be true. You can hardly say that the net amount of ills experienced by each person per unit of time has increased since thousands of years ago. Give it up already.
That's because you live in Australia. If you lived here or most other places in the world your opinion would be very different. You haven't seen 10 year olds begging in streets to feed 3 younger sibling orphans of parents who have died of AIDS. Or 90% unemployment cases as in Zimbabwe. Do you know what their inflation rate is? Most of you are arguing facts just because you are doing fine. It's a pity that guys from less developed countries are not on this discussion forum. You would get a different picture.

So if we were talking average pains per person, it may not be fair to compare with the past but maybe to check the current pains in the light of what the current state of people should be. What comes to mind when you hear words like Nazi, Darfur, Rwanda, Hiroshima? If you can try to picture yourself there or your family members then you may get a picture that these are serious matters. We face the danger of accepting such things as normal...of growing insensitive to the pains of others.
« Last Edit: 16/02/2009 15:25:29 by demadone »

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lyner

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #125 on: 16/02/2009 16:32:28 »
demadone
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You haven't seen 10 year olds begging in streets to feed 3 younger sibling orphans of parents who have died of AIDS. Or 90% unemployment cases as in Zimbabwe.

Such situations have existed since the year dot - they were not written about because they were just not remarkable OR, perhaps, because people in 'your' wonderful past ages just didn't care. At least some people care nowadays. Basically your comparisons are meaningless because they are not  fair tests in the Scientific sense. Your observation / measurement systems are not comparable so neither are the results.

I believe that the Christians were pretty vile to Muslims during the Crusades. Would you say they were any better than they are now?

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Offline Astronomer_FB

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« Reply #126 on: 16/02/2009 23:26:07 »
I have seen many Magic Tricks and I saw what I saw. The trick worked for me. That doesn't mean that there really was levitation and teleportation. Witnesses (especially in the dim and distant past) are actually worth zilch as a 'proof' of anything.
Old Moore's Almamanac is full of 'predictions', as are Astrologers' statements. If you are inventive enough, then you can link them to subsequent events but how often do they predict Derby winners of the state of the Stock Exchange? Are they all driving round in posher cars since the Credit Crunch arrived? Why didn't they know about it?
To prove something as important as the existence of a God it  would be necessary to do those same 'miracles' on demand and under laboratory conditions.
Why do you guys not just accept that you have faith and that that is enough for you?
I guess, if you are a Muslim, you would claim that the Koran is the right version and the others got it wrong. That's understandable. But show me a passage in that document which accurately predicts a modern event with complete lack of ambiguity.

OK Muslims do believe in some of the bible but there had been so much corruption God made another and final book . For modern predictions Qu'ran said that there would be a time where premarriagle sex and there would be disease with it which is Aids HIV. Another is time of global crisis in the economy.us  One more off the top of my head is Muslims not following the right path [ The terriost and eveyday muslims not following the teachings of the Qu'ran or the word of the Prophet Mohammad pbuh]

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #127 on: 16/02/2009 23:43:04 »
For modern predictions Qu'ran said that there would be a time where premarriagle sex and there would be disease with it which is Aids HIV.
Which affects a great deal of married, monogamous, faithful people worldwide.

If you can discount the bible, which it seems you can, then why not the Qu'ran?  Do you see any double standard there?

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Offline Astronomer_FB

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« Reply #128 on: 16/02/2009 23:53:23 »
For modern predictions Qu'ran said that there would be a time where premarriagle sex and there would be disease with it which is Aids HIV.
Which affects a great deal of married, monogamous, faithful people worldwide.

If you can discount the bible, which it seems you can, then why not the Qu'ran?  Do you see any double standard there?
To tell you the truth I do not thin, it is wrong.  Now I step back and look back what doesn't make sense and it all does, tell me what you see is wrong in the book I will not be offended.  But almost everyone now is fearful of gettimg AIDS ask anyone who just had unmariagle sex they worry for pregancy and sti this because of the past with prostitutes and many different lovers and leaving them.

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Offline demadone

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« Reply #129 on: 17/02/2009 07:06:11 »
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Such situations have existed since the year dot - they were not written about because they were just not remarkable OR, perhaps, because people in 'your' wonderful past ages just didn't care. At least some people care nowadays.

I believe that the Christians were pretty vile to Muslims during the Crusades. Would you say they were any better than they are now?
That is true. Entire nations and empires have experienced their final days of existence. Only a few generations ago mighty Indian nations roamed the plains of the western United States, living a simple nomadic life. But now they are gone, stamped out of existence by the westward-moving white men.

The “last days” here spoken of in the Bible are obviously an important period in history that would be marked by unusual distress. Yet, the Bible shows that, in spite of the evidence that the “last days” were at hand, people would not believe it. Instead, they would ridicule: 'All things are continuing as they always have been.'

When Mount Vesuvius was sending forth warnings in 79 AD, the majority of people in the city of Pompeii did not heed. While a few left the city at the mountain’s first outburst, many Pompeians—chiefly the wealthy—refused to abandon precious homes and possessions and took shelter, hoping the horror would pass. The decision cost them their lives. They realized that things were not right, yet they did not flee. How foolish! Rather than make a similar mistake, we today should heed the warning of the end’s approach.

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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #130 on: 17/02/2009 07:24:00 »
WOW. You can't wait for the world to end. You see decline everywhere when there's really none.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #131 on: 17/02/2009 15:24:28 »
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Such situations have existed since the year dot - they were not written about because they were just not remarkable OR, perhaps, because people in 'your' wonderful past ages just didn't care. At least some people care nowadays.

I believe that the Christians were pretty vile to Muslims during the Crusades. Would you say they were any better than they are now?
That is true. Entire nations and empires have experienced their final days of existence. Only a few generations ago mighty Indian nations roamed the plains of the western United States, living a simple nomadic life. But now they are gone, stamped out of existence by the westward-moving white men.

The “last days” here spoken of in the Bible are obviously an important period in history that would be marked by unusual distress. Yet, the Bible shows that, in spite of the evidence that the “last days” were at hand, people would not believe it. Instead, they would ridicule: 'All things are continuing as they always have been.'

When Mount Vesuvius was sending forth warnings in 79 AD, the majority of people in the city of Pompeii did not heed. While a few left the city at the mountain’s first outburst, many Pompeians—chiefly the wealthy—refused to abandon precious homes and possessions and took shelter, hoping the horror would pass. The decision cost them their lives. They realized that things were not right, yet they did not flee. How foolish! Rather than make a similar mistake, we today should heed the warning of the end’s approach.

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Offline demadone

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« Reply #132 on: 17/02/2009 15:25:29 »
Stefan you never came back with those examples I requested

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Offline demadone

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« Reply #133 on: 17/02/2009 15:29:09 »
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WOW. You can't wait for the world to end. You see decline everywhere when there's really none.

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the Bible shows that, in spite of the evidence that the “last days” were at hand, people would not believe it. Instead, they would ridicule: 'All things are continuing as they always have been.'

Actually this discussion has been dragging on because of something I mentioned along the thread that we are living in the last days.
Can't wait to take a different turn in this discussion. We are discussing the existence of a creator.

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Offline _Stefan_

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #134 on: 17/02/2009 16:11:53 »
The fact that you need to ask for examples means that you are ignorant of how science works and/or have not read the bible. Just open up to almost any page where the topic is God and you'll see the contradictions between God and reality.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline BenV

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #135 on: 17/02/2009 16:40:06 »
Can't wait to take a different turn in this discussion. We are discussing the existence of a creator.
Well, we were discussing the absence of mathematical proof of the existence of god.

You think there is a god, I do not.  You cannot prove it to me, and I cannot disprove it to you.

I think the burden of proof is on you to prove your fairy exists, you feel it's my responsibility to prove it doesn't.

Where is this going to get us?

Why don't we just debate the existence of elves?

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Offline _Stefan_

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #136 on: 17/02/2009 18:53:35 »
This blog entry says something about the lack of evidence for god: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/effectively_non-existent.php
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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lyner

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #137 on: 17/02/2009 20:05:48 »
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WOW. You can't wait for the world to end. You see decline everywhere when there's really none.

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the Bible shows that, in spite of the evidence that the “last days” were at hand, people would not believe it. Instead, they would ridicule: 'All things are continuing as they always have been.'

Actually this discussion has been dragging on because of something I mentioned along the thread that we are living in the last days.
Can't wait to take a different turn in this discussion. We are discussing the existence of a creator.

I'm afraid that a lame argument of yours turned round and bit you. Of course the notion of 'last days' is a nonsense one. We've had so many false endings to the World that it's got boring - and we're still here.
Perception of the past follows the inverse square law if one lacks rigour in one's analysis.
And we're actually looking for a "Mathematical Proof". Let's be having one then.

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Offline latebind

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #138 on: 17/02/2009 21:19:26 »
My thinking...

In my opinion
maths is objective, God is subjective,quite hard to mix the two directly...
Maths probably can't prove god, the same as it can't prove my favourite color is red.

On the other hand
If it is possible, it would probably happen through music. Maths is very tightly linked to music and music is linked to our emotions, and our emotions are linked to our soul.

« Last Edit: 17/02/2009 21:24:37 by latebind »
Late

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Offline Don_1

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #139 on: 17/02/2009 21:32:26 »
I have two souls, one on each shoe........ Oh! and The Beatles 'Rubber Soul'  .........

And, of course, not forgetting my ar

What did I say? What did I say?

I was only going to say Let me say it will you, you, why you.....
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #140 on: 18/02/2009 07:20:28 »
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In the United States today, we have tens of thousands of priests, rabbis, mullahs, pastors, and preachers who are paid professionals, who claim to be active and functioning mediators between people and omnipotent invisible masters of the universe. They make specific claims about their god's nature, what he's made of and what he isn't, how he thinks and acts, what you should do to propitiate it…they somehow seem to have amazingly detailed information about this being. Yet, when a scientist approaches with a critical eye, suddenly it is a creature that not only has never been observed, but cannot observed, and its actions invisible, impalpible, and immaterial.
If that's the evidence against God's existence....
You are asking the wrong people.

From what I gathered from that article, there is absolutely nothing to prove God's nonexistence. Worse still he is just making fun of creationists. Once you start generalizing creationists, then you are not playing by the rules. I for one don't think dinosaurs are proof that God doesn't exist or even the old ape fossils.

Creationism is by me the notion of the universe created by intelligence and not by impossible chance.

Darwin never concluded that he's observations and deductions meant God doesn't exist. He's followers though try to depict it that way.

I never said I have mathematical proof of God's existence. It's an absurd notion.

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Offline _Stefan_

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #141 on: 18/02/2009 07:33:37 »
You're not making much sense. You haven't read the blog entry properly either.

"Worse still"?
"Creationism is by me the notion of the universe created by intelligence and not by impossible chance."
That's the kind of creationism that academics are fighting against.

This is not about Darwin. Science does not depend on Darwin.

If you have unambiguous evidence for anything you are claiming, please present it. Otherwise, please stop making stuff up.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #142 on: 18/02/2009 08:32:04 »
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You're not making much sense. You haven't read the blog entry properly either.
Maybe you can show me what evidence is there in the blog. I didn't see any. For one thing one of the blog users gives a good example of something influenced on by the spirit realm, dowsing. Though I believe it is influenced by bad spirits.

And to say God hidden from man is way too much. The whole universe is a good example. Do you know the most influential man ever on earth?

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Offline _Stefan_

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #143 on: 18/02/2009 08:58:15 »
I can't imagine what it must be like to be in your head. I can't follow your logic.

Pharyngula readers are influenced by bad spirits? WTF?

The blog was pointing out that there is no evidence for god. It's up to those who claim there is a god to provide the evidence.

To say that the universe and it's contents is evidence for god is not valid, because there is no way to distinguish this from the alternative, that the universe arose and developed by natural processes. There is no way to test that god hypothesis and reach the conclusion that god is real, because all the evidence can be explained by reasonable natural answers.

If god wanted science to think that he doesn't exist, he's done everything in his power to make it seem that way.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #144 on: 18/02/2009 09:40:17 »
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Pharyngula readers are influenced by bad spirits?
I never said that. Dowsing is.

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To say that the universe and it's contents is evidence for god is not valid, because there is no way to distinguish this from the alternative, that the universe arose and developed by natural processes. There is no way to test that god hypothesis and reach the conclusion that god is real, because all the evidence can be explained by reasonable natural answers.

And have you ever sat down to think that those 'reasonable natural answers' are guided by certain rules that made it possible for the universe to exist in the first place?

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that the universe arose and developed by natural processes

An unguided explosion would have left many loop holes for chaotic debris that could not be studied by 'reasonable' science. And by all means even if the singularity had no source, it would never have exploded into a sustainable universe with all the elements we know.

Talking of the big bang, the early empty spaces that made it possible for the stars to ignite can not be explained if the big bang was not designed and guided. Note too that singularities don't explode under normal conditions. By 'reasonable' science, they don't explode.

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I can't imagine what it must be like to be in your head. I can't follow your logic.

Try to read my threads carefully and with a neutral perspective.
« Last Edit: 18/02/2009 09:43:32 by demadone »

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #145 on: 18/02/2009 09:53:25 »
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The fact that you need to ask for examples means that you are ignorant of how science works and/or have not read the bible. Just open up to almost any page where the topic is God and you'll see the contradictions between God and reality.
I think that is what make things up is. You still can't come up with any examples of what you mean.

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Offline Don_1

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #146 on: 18/02/2009 09:57:21 »
For pity sake!!!!

There can be no evidence, mathematical or otherwise, fore or against the existence of any Gods.

We all make our own individual choice based on what evidence there is, what theory there is and the writings, findings, theories and beliefs of scientists and theologians and the bloke down the pub.

We are free to follow whichever path we choose, be it atheist, agnostic, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism or paganism, just as we are free to follow Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band, Take That or Dolly Parton; just as we are free to choose between Ford, Nissan or BMW.

My atheism has no effect on any other person. It is my choice and my choice alone. If you choose to believe in God, so be it, may your God be with you.

Can we not be adult enough to leave it at that, and agree to disagree? This argument is getting nobody anywhere.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline demadone

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #147 on: 18/02/2009 10:05:27 »
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There can be no evidence, mathematical or otherwise, fore or against the existence of any Gods.
I through in a few lines of evidence in the thread (MessageID: 228803). Unless perhaps you don't know much about the big bang and it's early stages.

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Offline dentstudent

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #148 on: 18/02/2009 10:23:56 »
This is basically just a big game of "Spot the Logical Fallacy". God of the Gaps features very prominantly....Any additions anyone?

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Offline BenV

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Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #149 on: 18/02/2009 10:24:31 »
I'm with Don_1 on this, and will re-state my earlier post:

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You think there is a god, I do not.  You cannot prove it to me, and I cannot disprove it to you.

I think the burden of proof is on you to prove your fairy exists, you feel it's my responsibility to prove it doesn't.

Where is this going to get us?

There is no sensible debate here, and certainly no science.  We could continue to argue this forever, as there is no scientific evidence for god, yet those who believe in a god see 'evidence' everywhere they look.

I hope everyone can be happy believing what they want to believe, without trying to foist it upon others.

I'm locking this thread now.  PM me if you feel it's really worth having this thread still ongoing on a science forum.