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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  3. Cells, Microbes & Viruses
  4. Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
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Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?

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Offline evan_au

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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #20 on: 05/12/2021 10:15:28 »
Quote from: sceptic-eng
If a virus has a DNA double spiral then surely it ... can mutate
Yes, some viruses have their genetic material stored as double-stranded DNA, but other viruses use single-stranded DNA, and many have RNA (mostly single-strand, but some use double-stranded RNA).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_virus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_virus

Viruses can mutate, which means they can evolve - but just because they can mutate does not make them alive. They need to have a living host that can provide most of the cellular equipment to manufacture proteins and copy genetic material in order to replicate the virus.

Back when I was at school, the official view was that viruses were not alive. But viruses are on the edge of being alive - they have some properties of living things, but not others, so I can see why different people could come to different conclusions.

The discovery of some giant marine viruses with a physical size and genome size approaching some bacteria have further blurred the distinctions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandoravirus

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Offline Origin

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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #21 on: 05/12/2021 16:12:58 »
What is the dividing line between living and nonliving?
I think the answer is simple, but not very satisfying.  There is no line, just a fuzzy area between the 2.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #22 on: 05/12/2021 16:20:17 »
A bacterium, on its own,  can reproduce; a virus, on its own, can't.

That's not very blurred.
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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #23 on: 05/12/2021 18:25:45 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 05/12/2021 16:20:17
A bacterium, on its own,  can reproduce; a virus, on its own, can't.

That's not very blurred.
But a virus can reproduce, it can be killed and it has DNA or RNA.  Just seems kind of fuzzy to me...
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #24 on: 05/12/2021 19:22:37 »
Quote from: Origin on 05/12/2021 18:25:45
But a virus can reproduce
No, it can not.
No matter how  long you sit and watch one, it will not reproduce.

Quote from: Origin on 05/12/2021 18:25:45
it can be killed
No, it can not; that's why you see scientists talking about hand gel "inactivating" the virus.

Quote from: Origin on 05/12/2021 18:25:45
it has DNA or RNA.
If it was cheap. I could use DNA to glue sawdust together to make chipboard, but  it wouldn't be alive.
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Offline evan_au

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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #25 on: 05/12/2021 20:33:35 »
Quote
A bacterium, on its own,  can reproduce; a virus, on its own, can't.
A bacterium, by itself, will starve and/or boil, freeze, or explode.
- A bacterium needs a certain environment, including temperature, pressure, and a variety of organic compounds (mostly produced by other living bacteria).
- That's why bacteria like to live in a microbiome, as they all interact with each other, and produce things that others need
- That's why we can't grow around 95% of bacteria in the lab, because they are not self-sufficient - they depend on other living organisms to survive and thrive.

Similarly, a virus needs a microbiome to survice - and that environment includes its viral host
- I understand that the human microbiome has many viruses to keep it under control - if some particular microbe starts to take over, then bacteriophages targeting that microbe start to multiply, to keep it under control.
- It's when we "nuke" our microbiome with unnecessary antibiotics that some bacteria have no competition from other bacteria, and things can get really out of kilter...

Infection of a human is the common cold's method of reproduction...
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #26 on: 05/12/2021 20:40:43 »
Quote from: evan_au on 05/12/2021 20:33:35
A bacterium, by itself, will starve and/or boil, freeze, or explode.
A bacterium in a Petri dish will do just fine.
But a virus won't do anything unless you add life.
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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #27 on: 05/12/2021 22:29:23 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 05/12/2021 16:20:17
A bacterium, on its own,  can reproduce; a virus, on its own, can't.

That's not very blurred.
I checked and apparently the majority of the biologists say that viruses are not alive.  When it comes to subjects I am not well versed in a go with the experts so I now agree that viruses are not alive (I still wonder though...)
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Offline evan_au

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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #28 on: 06/12/2021 10:11:42 »
Quote from: bored chemist
A bacterium in a Petri dish will do just fine.
I understand that around 95% of bacteria "species" in a Petri dish will not grow, no matter what mix of food molecules, trace minerals, vitamins etc they are fed.
- That's because they naturally live in a microbiome, as a community of bacteria with networks of food/waste processing and even signaling paths.
- That's why so-called pro-biotics are a bit of a joke, because they only contain the small fraction of gut microbes that can be grown in a Petri Dish (and scaled up to a large-scale fermenter vat).
- That's also one reason why finding new antibiotics has been a challenge - some interesting bacterial candidates have been found, and their genomes sequenced. But they can't be grown as a monoculture - something that is almost demanded by the medical approval authorities.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Viruses and Bacteria.. What's the line between living and non-living?
« Reply #29 on: 06/12/2021 12:44:21 »
All that shows is that for 95% or bugs, we have not yet identified their "vitamins".
People with pernicious anaemia didn't need to eat raw liver, they needed to eat vitamin B12.
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