God real or not

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paul.fr

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God real or not
« Reply #400 on: 04/03/2007 01:39:11 »
somebody agrees.....with me....maybe there is a god after all!

*sits down, head in hands, have i been wrong all this time? where's the whisky*

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jolly

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« Reply #401 on: 04/03/2007 12:57:46 »
o.k I'll re-write it.

well, the sikhs believe that all religions lead to God, so you could say that each of the names the different religions use are really just different names for the same god.

Jesus and mohammid relativly said the same thing, Its each head-preists interpretation that affects the message a different religion has. I think, really they all say the same thing, treat others as you wish to treated. 'most' the main 3 use the 10 commandments, I think seeks do to. That being the case, Thou shall not kill, all should abide by.

Jesus asked us to love thy enemy, and turn the other cheek. Why? Because if you fight evil with evil you make more evil. You have to fight evil with love and you make more love. In doing so you help evil people- to become good, As there is good in everyone.

Dawkins said he's an atheist for Jesus. I agree that you dont need God to be good, If the only reason someone is good is because they are scared of God thats immoral. There are plenty of reasons to be good without God. To say I'm only good because of god, is the same as saying- "I want to kill and mame and hurt people I just dont because god will get me if I do" Good people do not harbour these thoughts, they find where they come from and remove them (they go into pandoras box which is inside each person and kick out their demons).

If you except that others exist, and they too like you, feel pain and pleasure, happy and sad, love and hate, and like you- enjoy feeling happy, love, and pleasure surely as you like it and know they like it, you should work to promote it.

God is above that If he/she exists, he/she would clearly love us and want us to be happy and free. Bottom line is evil kills itself(not talking about sucide) and others. love promotes life, evil dosnt. Evil men start wars. loving men try to stop them. The trouble with many religions is they mis-use Gods message for their own selfish, desires= vainity, power, greed etc and in doing so they try to keep there flock in ignorance- to the reality of their own hypocracy.

Noah, according to the Talmud(genesis9:18-19)was given seven basic principles by which to live. This is called the 'Noahide code' It is forbidden:-
1. Idolatry  2. Blasphemy  3. Incest  4. Murder  5. Robbery  6. Cruelty to animals  and  7. requires honesty and fairness.

The Holy Qur'an

2-the cow section 8 62.
"Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto, thee muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians and Sabaeans-Whoever believeth in ALLAH(God) and the last day and doth right-surely their reward is with their LORD, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve"
75. "Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of ALLAH, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?"
Section 11
87. "And verily we gave unto Moses the scripture and we caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and we gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs of ALLAH'S sovereignty and we supported him with the holy sprit. Is it ever so, that when cometh unto you a messenger (from ALLAH) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay? And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but ALLAH hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe".   

Jesus in my opinion as mohammid, are both teachers as is buddha. Thou shall have no other gods before me. If anyone puts either before god they break the first commandment. Really the commandment is saying thou shall value nothing above God. So if you put money, or fame, or anthing above god you break the first commandment. So if money is more importamt to you than anything else it has become your God, has'nt it. 

Thou shall not kill has been taken to also mean thou shall not harm, But that isnt just in action, it is also in thought, as a good person shouldnt think about killing or harming someone either.

Thou shall not covert thy neibours ox, wife ect. Really means you should try not to think about what someone else has with envy. Very hard to do the moment you think about it- you have coverted. Thou shall try not to covert. after all thinking your neibours spouse is attractive, is not the same as thinking about having sex with them. That gos for everything your neigbour owns(though why you'd be thinking about having sex with your neibours car I dont know/lol just kidding). Dont envy other peoples possesions.

moses, jesus, mohammid, buddha, gandhi, guru Nanak, Bill hicks(the p~~~~d off prophet) are all teachers in a school, they are not the aministrator. You may go (pray) to them for help, guidance and forgiveness(silly really as you have to forgive yourself; for- if you cant you cant move on).

Eating the apple was never the first sin- as you need to be inteligent to know the difference between right and wrong. The first sin was really- running from God in fear, through inteligence.

King David was not a good man or king. He repeatedly did the wrong thing and had to repent for it and then on his death bed what did he want- what was his last request? That somone be murdered= JOAB. Even on his death bed he broke the commandment- thou shall not kill and the Noahide code also. God had place Adonijah on the throne, and again David went against God and put soloman in instead- Not that soloman was a bad person as the psalms prove he was a good king. But when you consider the psalms of David you find nothing more than a confused, scared and angry man begging for some light to help him through his darkness.
 
BILL HICK QUOTES:

"Boy, when they said anybody could be president, I didnt realise what that meant till this year, ANYBODY! A body of water, a dead body".

"This guy said, God had told him to run for office, pretty scarey, but its o.k as God told me not to vote for him".

"Jesus- murdered, Gandhi- murdered, John lennon- murdered, Reagan- wounded".

"Adam and Eve are in the garden of eden and adam says "look eve here we are, In a beautiful place sorrounded by nature, at one with god, totally happy and in love". Eve says "yeah its just not enought is it".

JUST A RIDE,
"Life is like a ride on a roller coaster, you go up and down around and around, its very load and brightly coloured, and fun for a while, and you think its real coz that how powerful our minds are. Some people who have been on the ride for a long time, begin to question is this real or just a ride. Some remember and they come back to us, saying "dont be scared, dont worrie, ever! Because its just a ride". And we kill those people.lol But that dosent matter because its just a ride. We live in a world where good men are murdered and demons run amok"
End quote.

Free will and suffering.

People suffer because they choose too(buddhism). God dosnt kill people, people do. as god made man free, so- if God stops someone evil killing he stop them being free. A condatiction so god wont stop them(all God could do is try to save the good person-after they've been shot).
If man in his freedom destroys the world god cant step in(if there is one).
If you love yourself do you not see that no matter what happens to you, you still like who you are, and dont blame yourself or feel down. Hurrican carter spent how many years in prison, and he was innocent, framed by the police.
Yet when he left prison what did he say? "in the end, I like myself". If you like yourself you dont suffer, if you dont fight you dont suffer. If you feel pain and fight it- you suffer; if you except it you still feel it- but dont suffer. God dosnt make people suffer to hurt them but to help them as getting out of suffering makes you- a happier and better person.
what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. suffering is a choice as the buddhist believe. Buddhist state: 'life is suffering'- 'unless you become enlightened'. 

God made man free and soverigns of the earth. Therefore we are free to destroy it(the earth) if we wish. If god stopped us, God would have to take our freedom away to do so. As the saying gos- All evil needs to take control, is for good people to sit back and do nothing.

With regards to evolution:

why can't you have both, we still dont understand mutation, mutation could be god playing with the dna of an embroy. If god made everything i'm sure he's a scientist. If she/he wrote the dna code. why not? maybe god just put a few animals here and the rest evolved as science says they did or maybe god just put a sponge here and we all come from that. But also it is possible that its not true and it all just happened by chance. one dosnt disprove or prove the other. There all equally likely.
You can never know both are a leap of faith. so go with what you feel. which do you prefer and why? just god did it, just evolution did it or both togther? there all equally plausable. Not talking inteligent design as thats silly; I.D tries to prove gods existance. Which if god does exist, he or she would never allow. Doesnt mean you couldnt prove it, just means god would try to stop you. Afterall with proff theres no need for faith. 

'Fighting' Evil:

If you see someone trying to harm someone else you should try to stop them. But useing restraint. You hold them down till the police arrive, to take them to prison. If you kill them trying to restrain them, then you never intended to kill them or harm them, it would be accidential.

The frog and the scorpion:
The frog helps the scorpion to go over the river and the scorpion sting the frog half way across; the frog asks why? and the scorpion says "it's in my nature".
Evil kills itself=scorpion frogs= help people and sometimes die trying.
the scorpion could still of stung the frog on the river bank/ either way (helping or not) the frog could have died- surely its better to die helping.
So if you die trying to fight evil- hopefully God would'nt let you. But if you do, atleast your death would be for something you believe in/somthing positive. Like spook in star trek 3 where he enters the reactor and kills himself to save the ship and everyone on it. The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few, or the needs of the one. 

HABAKKUK 2.6-20

"woe to him who piles up stolen goods and makes himself wealthy by extortion! How long must this go on? Will not your debtors/creditors suddenely arise? Will they not wake up and make you tremble? Then you will become their victim, because you have plundered many nations, the people who are left will plunder you! For you have shed human blood; you have destroyed lands and cites and everyone in them".
"Woe to him who builds his realm by unjust gain, to set his nest on high, to escape the clutches of ruin! You have plotted the ruin of many peoples, shaming your own house and forfeiting your life. The stones of the wall will cry out, and the beams of woodwork will echo it".
"Woe to him who builds a city with bloodshed and establishes a town by a crime. Has the LORD Almighty not determined thats people's labour is only fuel for the fire, that nations exhaust themselves for nothing?"....
"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbours, pouring it for wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies. You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and be exposed! The cup from the lords right hand is coming round to you and disgrace will cover you glory. The violence you have done to lebanon will overwhelm you, and your destruction of animals will terrify you. For you have shed human blood; destroyed lands and cities and everyone in
them".
"Of what value is an idol, since someone has carved it? or an image that teaches lies? For those who make them- trust in their own creations; they make idols that cannot speak. Woe to him who says 'wood come to life!' Can it give guidence? It is covered with gold and silver; there is no breath in it. But the LORD is in his temple; let all the earth be silent before him." A-MEN.

Judgement is reserved for God alone. Who are you or anyone else to judge others. Ofcourse if you catch a person commiting a crime then you may and do judge them and sentence them to pay their debt to society(prison). But spritual judgement is for god alone, Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone! We are all free under god to decided if we are going to be good or bad. God wants us to choose life or death, good or evil, no slaves in heaven please.

SHABBAT:

"That which is hateful unto thee do not do unto thy neighbour. This is the whole of the Torah(and all the books). The rest is commentary. Go and study". I agree- SO WALK. 

HH DALAI LAMA:

"Sometimes when I meet old friends, it reminds me how quickly time passes. And it makes me wonder if we've utilized our time properly or not. Proper utilization of time is so important. While we have this body, and especially this amazing human brain, I think every minute is somthing precious. Our day-to-day existence is very much alive with hope, although there is no guarantee of our future. There is no guarantee that tomorrow at this time we will be here. But still we are working for that purely on the basis of hope. So we need to make the best use of our time. I believe that the proper ultization of time is this: If you can, serve other people, other sentient beings. If not atleast refrain from harming them. I think that is the whole basis of my philosophy.
So, let us reflect on what is truely of value in life, what gives meaning to our lives, and set our priorites on the basis of that. The purpose of life needs to be positive. We Weren't born with the purpose of causing trouble, or harming others. For our lives to be of value, I think we must develop basic good human qualities-warmth, kindness, compassion. then our lives becomes meaningful, and more peaceful- happier". 

The Lord Buddha said:

"Salvation does not come from the sight of me! It demands strenous effort and practice, so work hard and seek your own salvation diligently".  

Guru Nanak:

"Remember God, work hard and help others. God is pleased with honest work and truthful living".

You see really all the prophets say the same thing. I say be good and be happy, live and love, love and learn, life is too short to waste time fighting- so go find out who you are and make your life amazing. It is in the end merely a choice- You are and you live, as you choose to. Be free and be godly.x   
    
Lets face it the corporations have put money(profit) at the top of there agenda. and as a result greed is now the only thing people seem to work for- its involved in every transaction you carry out. They have made money more important than people- and even products more important than people.
The corporations sadly today control the world as the market has been allowed to take control of all areas- this includes science. Polticians are now mere puppets who realativly are told what to do and say, But they've not been bribed- oh no they have been seduced.lol I say death to fascism and all the hate they stand for.
Lets revoke the charters and give power back to the people- Freedom for everyone. lets end this plutocratic totalitarian nightmare we currently call the free market. There is no invisable hand. So stop just thinking about you and start thinking about others for a change maybe heaven might dawn. Do unto others as you wish to be done unto you- the rest is comentary go study.   

      
« Last Edit: 06/04/2007 14:23:38 by jolly »

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Offline that mad man

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« Reply #402 on: 04/03/2007 18:47:06 »
What I find difficult to understand is why it is necessary to believe in a religion in order to have a belief in God. From an outsider is seems to be out of a desire to belong to a "tribe" and to be different and exclusive from others.

In the 3 main religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam the same arch angel Gabriel was involved so in my reasoning they must all have the same God.
Its a strange warping that somehow the prophets now become more important than the God that is to be worshipped.

The idea of a God or God's pre-date the organised religions of above so just worship God (if you feel the need to) and cut out the excess baggage.

TMM

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paul.fr

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« Reply #403 on: 04/03/2007 19:01:31 »
ok, this may be nit picking but:

in term of numbers, Hinduism is the third largest organised religion, with an estimated 851 million members.

No single creed or doctrine binds Hindus together. Intellectually there is complete freedom of belief, and one can be monotheist, polytheist, or atheist. Hinduism is a syncretic religion, welcoming and incorporating a variety of outside influences.

The most ancient sacred texts of the Hindu religion are written in Sanskrit and called the Vedas (vedah means “knowledge”). There are four Vedic books, of which the Rig-Veda is the oldest. It discusses multiple gods, the universe, and creation. The dates of these works are unknown (1000 B.C.?). Present-day Hindus rarely refer to these texts but do venerate them.


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paul.fr

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« Reply #404 on: 04/03/2007 19:31:26 »
I agree If God makes you free, you have to make up your own mind about whats what. The only thing I think that is concrete is that you should be good not evil. But how do you know the difference, afterall the devil could ask you to give a hungry person a cheese sandwich, and you thinking its a good thing, give that poor/hungry person a cheese sandwich, that person then dies as they were alergic to cheese, and the devil laughts at that 'good' persons stupidity. You can know the difference between good and bad; you cant know if what your doing will have a good or bad outcome untill after the fact. So a good person should always consider the concequences of their actions and stop if they see somthing bad happening.

If you were a god fearing person, would you do the devils bidding by giving the sandwich?

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #405 on: 20/03/2007 02:35:37 »
It just occured to me, but nobody has quoted anything from south park!

The only place to truely learn about life and god, here are quotes from an episode:

Stan: “Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny’s my friend. Why can’t God take someone else’s friend?”

Chef: “Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He’s all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can’t get over it, so he doesn’t care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don’t matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?”

Stan: “But then, why does God give us anything to start with?”

Chef: “Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin’ to cry about. That’s like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it’s our tears, Stan, that give God his great power.”

Stan: “I think I understand.”


:-D Paul.
Steven
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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #406 on: 20/03/2007 19:39:34 »
hahaha omg south park rocks my socks!!!
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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #407 on: 30/03/2007 16:52:50 »
i no i just skimmed it but i saw south park and i just had to say somethin lol
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #408 on: 12/04/2007 20:48:32 »
Prove Jesus and God are in fact real.

Define your definition of god. Is god the Christian tyrant in the sky. Is he the vengeful Islamic god? Is he Love, Nature or something ambiguous like this?

Steven
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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #409 on: 13/04/2007 14:36:24 »
if jesus is real then so is god...if god is real then so is jesus
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Offline Seany

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« Reply #410 on: 13/04/2007 14:38:54 »
Yes.. I'm afraid these questions cannot come out with a strict "ONE" answer. But I must say one thing to you all..

I am the Living Messiah
They say that when you die, your life flashes in front of you. Make it worth watching!


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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #411 on: 13/04/2007 14:41:56 »
HALLOWED ARE THE ORI.
Steven
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Offline Seany

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« Reply #412 on: 13/04/2007 14:43:02 »
Yes. Let us proclaim the mystery of faith!!

Christ has died..
Christ is risen..
Christ will come again!!

AND HERE I AM!!
They say that when you die, your life flashes in front of you. Make it worth watching!


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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #413 on: 13/04/2007 16:20:16 »
Yes. Let us proclaim the mystery of faith!!

Christ has died..
Christ is risen..
Christ will come again!!

AND HERE I AM!!

No offense, I think that blasphemous.

Many of you feel that Jesus is God. This clearly is not the case Jesus is Gods greatest prophet.
JOHN 1-  4.7-12
'Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves is born of God(born again) and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE. This is how God showed his love among us: he sent his one and only son into the world so that we might live through him.......12 None has ever seen God; but if we love one another , God lives in us and his love is made complete in us'.

It is quite clear that Jesus was not god. It is the father God, The son- the prophets and the Holy Sprite- your soul. GOD- JESUS- PEOPLE. THE FATHER-SON-HOLY SPRITE.

Please reject hatred, and embrace LOVE.   

No, Jesus is God, who is also the Holy Spirit, who is Jesus. Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all one person.
Life is like a video game, always trying to win. To bad it's impossible to beat Death's high score.

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #414 on: 13/04/2007 16:23:32 »
Yes yes.. Sorry my bad.. [:-'(]
They say that when you die, your life flashes in front of you. Make it worth watching!


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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #415 on: 13/04/2007 16:23:51 »
People say "Prove God is real! I can't see him!" Sometimes you beileve in things you can't see. Like wind for example, people beileve in wind even though they can't see it.
Then they say "Yeah! But we can feel wind!" Just as I can feel God working in my heart to make me a better Christian.

You can't feel the wind if you put a coat on. That's what the people who question God's existence have done. They put a "coat" around their heart to keep him out.
Life is like a video game, always trying to win. To bad it's impossible to beat Death's high score.

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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #416 on: 13/04/2007 16:36:28 »
idk but all of u had better strighten up....the myans have predicted that we would have cars, we would fly around in machines, and that we will go into space and on the moon. they were right about all those things but another prediction is yet to come...they predict that in 2015 there will be en epic event. this huge event could be the end of the world where we will find out if god is real or not...but it could also mean other things like a huge plague that kills millions or first contact with aliens or WW3 no1 knows
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #417 on: 13/04/2007 16:43:23 »
idk but all of u had better strighten up....the myans have predicted that we would have cars, we would fly around in machines, and that we will go into space and on the moon. they were right about all those things but another prediction is yet to come...they predict that in 2015 there will be en epic event. this huge event could be the end of the world where we will find out if god is real or not...but it could also mean other things like a huge plague that kills millions or first contact with aliens or WW3 no1 knows


First, I don't beileve aliens. Second, WWIII is entirely possible, just ask Seany! [:)]

Third, maybe the mayans did predict we would have cars and fly around and go into space and the moon..but were there visions the same as ours?

What if they imagined, sorry visualized cars had 2 or 6 wheels instead of 4? What if they visualized airplanes being box-shaped (which wouldn't make sense.) What if they visualized it was someone besides Neil Armstrong who landed on the moon. What if they visualized me or some monkey landing on the moon?

Sorry about all the "what if's".
Life is like a video game, always trying to win. To bad it's impossible to beat Death's high score.

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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #418 on: 13/04/2007 16:49:34 »
it doesnt mattter how they invisoned them to be..of course they had there own imaginations but the main reason is that they still predicted that we wud go to space(humans) we wud land on the moon, we would go around in cars no matter how many wheels, and that we wud fly in huge machines no matter wat shape.
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #419 on: 13/04/2007 16:53:41 »
I think it does matter, because if their visions are different from ours, they could a little off about the 2015 thing..who knows? It, whatever "it" is, could happen in 2115.

That's the longest song ever by the way. 2115. It was made by Rush.
Life is like a video game, always trying to win. To bad it's impossible to beat Death's high score.

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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #420 on: 14/04/2007 15:45:25 »
Wrong - it was 2112
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #421 on: 14/04/2007 17:05:22 »
God is an imagined anthropomorphic personification. A malignant meme. A pernicious, malevolent, capricious dictator.
Steven
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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #422 on: 15/04/2007 20:09:51 »
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
     Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
     Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
     Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
     Then why call him God?

Epicurus - had it figured-out 2300 years ago...
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #423 on: 16/04/2007 21:09:26 »
Which god?
Steven
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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #424 on: 16/04/2007 21:39:36 »
To quote Pratchett: "All religions are true, for a given value of true"
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #425 on: 17/04/2007 16:19:59 »
God is both willing and able, I think God just wants people to be good through choice not through slavery. Evil comes from Freedom but so does love- Its a choice. You are who you choose to be.
So by giving us freedom God allows people to be evil as well as good- But God loves us and wants us to be good and free.
If you use your gift of life to destroy others then- It is your funneral.
I think God wants to save as many as possible so God gives enought time to each to decided what he/she wants to be- Angel or demon.
Your choice- Your life- your death.
God does'nt kill people- people do.
You have your alotted time so use it as you want- You are in the end free.
Well if your good your free- the Devil makes you his slave. 


Nice post Jolly.[:)]
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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #426 on: 18/04/2007 20:10:11 »
Quote
But God loves us

And also gives us Earthquakes, and Volcanoes, and Lightning Strikes, and Tsunamis, and Tornadoes, Flooding, Cylones, Hurricanes, disease, droughts and age-related illneses ...?

 
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Offline that mad man

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« Reply #427 on: 18/04/2007 21:34:48 »
Saying you have a belief in God is fine by me but, it is a personal individual feeling so accept that it is not always shared.


If you believe that God has put you here and that he has also given you free will, will he interfere with man's future decisions?

Bee



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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #428 on: 19/04/2007 16:30:52 »
could there be more than one god? like maybe the god that some of us believe in has a mom and a dad?
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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #429 on: 19/04/2007 19:27:19 »
God is not a reason (as there is no God).
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.

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Offline RMorty

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« Reply #430 on: 20/04/2007 01:48:15 »
 Jolly,

  Good point about the fact that god doesn't matter if a person is only moral because of fear.

  Someone who is religious. Please explain how Christ died for everyone's sin.  I wasn't alive when he died on the cross, what sins exactly?  If the world still has sin did he really die to so anything to sin?  Also, the thing saying that everyone has a sin once they're born "the cardinal sin" or whatever it is called, that thing... it really sets off my bullshit alarm.

  For those of you who are naturalists.  You don't believe in a deity as this topic is discussing so that sort of information has no place here, it simply created more angles to look at things, which are off topic.

  If you believe that there is a god that created anything, if you are a deist, if you believe in Greek gods etc.

  Scientology isn't involving a "god", nor is naturalism. 

Back on track now.  If there is a god, then why does he demand that we all believe by faith?  What's wrong with telling us he is real.  If I had tangible proof then I would have no doubt.  If I tell you that I had $867 shoved up my ass crack, and I told you I did, and then, I asked you if you believed me, then you said yes.  Then how about I say, if you reach up my ass and grab the money it's yours?  Would you do it just to find out I was cuddling  with you?  It would make it easier if I said, hey, here's the money, now its going between my ass cheeks and if you are man/woman enough to reach in there and take it it's yours.

  That is a really jacked up analogy I know, but it works.  Sure I can spend 1/7th of my week praising the unknown to die and realize that there is nothingness (if realizing a reality in nothingness were possible).  Or, God could simply let he world know he exists without a doubt then the logical people wouldn't have to wonder about it.

  Sure, I think the idea of a loving god id nice, but I CAN'T, I literally CAN'T, I can lie and say yes I believe in god, but I don't and the way preachers put it, that's what counts.

  My belief is that I didn't exist before I was born, and I won't exist afterwards.  As a matter of fact, thinking that I won't exist once I am dead is more comforting than believing that I will either spend eternity in bliss or eternity in a place full of pain and anguish.

  it's also funny that god loves you until you're dead.  He loves everyone no matter how much she sins, but once they die... bye bye.

 Also a parting thought.. isn't the devil a "good guy." I mean think about it. If he is punishing those who "betray god" isn't he sort of like an employee? lol. Like a jailer is to the legal system?
 

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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #431 on: 20/04/2007 16:36:04 »
God is not a reason (as there is no God).

that is an extremely bold quote Batroost and my and i assume others probably dont appreciate that. You can express your opinion on this site but dont flat out say stuff like its a fact refer to it as your opinion. thx
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #432 on: 20/04/2007 16:40:24 »
I don't appreciate it that's for sure.

But is bold the right word?
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #433 on: 20/04/2007 16:42:33 »
Quote
But God loves us

And also gives us Earthquakes, and Volcanoes, and Lightning Strikes, and Tsunamis, and Tornadoes, Flooding, Cylones, Hurricanes, disease, droughts and age-related illneses ...?

 

God uses these catastrophes to turn people to him. Sin also causes all of those. So you can't entirly blame God.

If there's a war..did God start that war? Or did people start that war?

..Or did natural sinful nature make us start that war?
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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #434 on: 20/04/2007 17:03:39 »
Quote
Quote from: Batroost on 19/04/2007 19:27:19
God is not a reason (as there is no God).


that is an extremely bold quote Batroost and my and i assume others probably dont appreciate that. You can express your opinion on this site but dont flat out say stuff like its a fact refer to it as your opinion. thx

You're absolutely right. In my opinion "God is not a reason (as there is no God)."

Now, can I see the same qualification from those who so blatently assert the existence of a deity?

No offence intended of course but why does theology always seem to find its way onto Science Forums? - I've got no excuse really, I studied Theology alongside my Physics degree.
« Last Edit: 20/04/2007 17:18:29 by Batroost »
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« Reply #435 on: 20/04/2007 18:00:09 »
yea i agrre with u there are many things that disprove god but there are also many that prove his existance
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« Reply #436 on: 20/04/2007 18:44:14 »
Ben6789.

Sin is a Christian concept that only applies to the Christian religion and those taught "the word of god" within it. The concept of sin does not appear until late into the bible (Romans) where Paul interpreted it differently. He had to as without sinning Christianity would mean nothing i.e. Jesus would not have died for OUR sins. God never mentions sin in Genesis, where it was supposed to happen nor did Jesus mention it. Also one reason the Jewish religion does not believe in sin.

The problem is that under the Christian religion there can be no salvation without sinning first as the whole Christian ideal depends on sin, redemption and being scared of God!

So sin is relative to what you believe, or not as it does not affect all.


Bee


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Offline Seany

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« Reply #437 on: 20/04/2007 21:47:05 »
Also a parting thought.. isn't the devil a "good guy." I mean think about it. If he is punishing those who "betray god" isn't he sort of like an employee? lol. Like a jailer is to the legal system?

Cool! I never thought of it that way! But then again, Jesus would punish anyone who sins, but would always forgive. I don't think the devil forgives, and punishes them too much, just for their own sake and happiness.
They say that when you die, your life flashes in front of you. Make it worth watching!


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« Reply #438 on: 20/04/2007 22:21:22 »
God is not a reason (as there is no God).

Neither does Santa
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« Reply #439 on: 20/04/2007 22:43:16 »
yea i agrre with u there are many things that disprove god but there are also many that prove his existance

This is a contradiction.  You cannot simultaneously prove and disprove.  What you can say is that there is evidence for, and evidence against; but proof implies an absolute for which there can be no contrary.

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« Reply #440 on: 20/04/2007 23:22:31 »
Ben6789.

Sin is a Christian concept that only applies to the Christian religion and those taught "the word of god" within it. The concept of sin does not appear until late into the bible (Romans) where Paul interpreted it differently. He had to as without sinning Christianity would mean nothing i.e. Jesus would not have died for OUR sins. God never mentions sin in Genesis, where it was supposed to happen nor did Jesus mention it. Also one reason the Jewish religion does not believe in sin.

The problem is that under the Christian religion there can be no salvation without sinning first as the whole Christian ideal depends on sin, redemption and being scared of God!

So sin is relative to what you believe, or not as it does not affect all.

Bee

The word 'sin' has a roots in Latin and Germanic languages, so would not have existed as a word in the pre-Latin bible.  On the other hand, there is no doubt that God is supposed to have wrought punishment upon the Jews if the strayed from the path of righteousness; but for the Jews, the religion was more of a social instrument rather than a personal duty, and so in the Old Testament, one sees more often a communal punishment for the people as a whole, than a personal punishment for the individual (although, that having been said, one can look at the punishment met out to David and Bathsheba for their adulterous relationship.

Aside from that, both Hindu and Buddhist religions have the idea of leading a good life, free of evil, and the idea that if you do evil, it will rebound on you in the next life.  Unlike Christianity, the next life is not regarded as some other place (a heaven or a hell), but a reincarnation into this world, but with the burdens of the sins of your past lives placed upon your present life.  It is only when you have worked off all of your past evil deeds with good deeds, that you can free yourself from the cycle of reincarnation.

Different details, but not so very different in underlying ideas.

In fact, my own suspicion is that there is a fair degree of Hindu influence in Judaism, although I would not go as far as to say that Judaism evolved from Hinduism (or maybe Zoroastrianism), only that it evolved under the influence of these religions.

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« Reply #441 on: 21/04/2007 01:22:31 »
God is not a reason (as there is no God).

that is an extremely bold quote Batroost and my and i assume others probably dont appreciate that. You can express your opinion on this site but dont flat out say stuff like its a fact refer to it as your opinion. thx

Tony, can you prove there is a god, until you can them may we assume or have the opinion that there is no god because you can not prove it.



God uses these catastrophes to turn people to him. Sin also causes all of those. So you can't entirly blame God.

If there's a war..did God start that war? Or did people start that war?

..Or did natural sinful nature make us start that war?

If god was so almighty, why would he use war and catastrophies to get followers and believers? surely, he would use love and peace.

again i feel the quote from south park sums up what god does, if there is a god.

Stan: “Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny’s my friend. Why can’t God take someone else’s friend?”

Chef: “Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He’s all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can’t get over it, so he doesn’t care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don’t matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?”

Stan: “But then, why does God give us anything to start with?”

Chef: “Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin’ to cry about. That’s like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it’s our tears, Stan, that give God his great power.”

Stan: “I think I understand.”


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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #442 on: 21/04/2007 01:49:54 »
yea i agrre with u there are many things that disprove god but there are also many that prove his existance

This is a contradiction.  You cannot simultaneously prove and disprove.  What you can say is that there is evidence for, and evidence against; but proof implies an absolute for which there can be no contrary.

There is no evidence to believe in a god. Most people substitute god for a gap in their knowledge. It is true that you can't disprove god. Especially if you use the word god in a way that is ambiguous and unclear. That said just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean that the chances of it being true are 50/50. I would say given my currently knowledge of the cosmos I think it is highly unlikely a god (personal deity who answers prayers etc) exists.
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« Reply #443 on: 21/04/2007 02:56:08 »
There is no evidence to believe in a god.

Clearly untrue.

People do not arbitrarily believe in anything, however absurd that thing might be, without any evidence.  The evidence might be superficial.  The interpretation of that evidence might be flawed.  Despite all of that, there must be some reason why that thing was believed in, and another competing idea was not believed in, and that reason must be considered to be evidence, however weak and inadequate it might be.

Most people substitute god for a gap in their knowledge.

But is that not also much of the argument for dark matter - it is to fill a gap in our understanding of the way galaxies behave?

Any theory usually starts with an attempt to fill the gap in our knowledge, and then that theory is tested.  There are serious problems with testing the God theory, which places severe limits upon what that theory may now be used for (if anything); but simply saying that the theory is bad because it was created to fill a gap in our knowledge would condemn much of the theoretical model of the universe that we have today.

Incidentally, there are also severe problems with proving string theory, or many other grand cosmological theories; but that does not of itself falsify the theory, only for the time being limit the trust one can place in them.

It is true that you can't disprove god. Especially if you use the word god in a way that is ambiguous and unclear. That said just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean that the chances of it being true are 50/50. I would say given my currently knowledge of the cosmos I think it is highly unlikely a god (personal deity who answers prayers etc) exists.

Probabilities can be used to mean two things:
  • It can be used to express the number of times an event will happen.  This requires multiple occurrences of an event, and an ability to predict future occurrences of an event (e.g. throw a dice, and count the number of times you get a six).  This clearly is not a meaningful interpretation of probability when one is asking about the existence, or non existence, of a single deity.
  • The more meaningful use of the word probability is as a measure of confidence in one's prediction; but such a measure can only be given a useful probability if one can quantify the likely sources of error in one's prediction.  How would you go about quantifying the sources of error in predicting the absence of a God?
What might reasonably be argued from a purely philosophical perspective is that the concept of a God has no scientific or engineering utility; but the philosophical response to that is to ask whether scientific and engineering utility is an adequate definition of existence?

Clearly, from an economic perspective, engineering utility is paramount in our ability to create wealth and the lifestyle we have become accustomed to, but does that make it nonetheless the only arbiter of existence?  I should stress that I do not regard this as a rhetorical question, but a genuine question - should we regard engineering and scientific utility as the sole arbiter of existence, or should we allow other values to define existence (maybe other types of existence, or to extend a single notion of existence)?

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #444 on: 21/04/2007 03:48:25 »
Clearly untrue?

Can you give me the evidence for believing in a god. I don't mean reasons why people believe. I know many reasons why people believe. I am saying when you look for evidence there is a severe lack of it. It always ends up coming down to faith. The god hypothesis has nothing to back it up. At least string theory has some fancy maths.

I know the current problems in physics. Mentioning them doesn't discount what I said.

Science for me answers questions that start with the word how. How did this happen? How did that come to be? for questions that start with why then I would perhaps look elsewhere. I am under the impression that the universe doesn't owe me a why. Why are we hear? Why is there something rather than nothing?

As for quantifying the sources or error in prediction the absence of a god. I would need a strict definition of the word god. With the multitude of definitions people give that word it makes the word almost meaningless. If god is what you call the wonder of nature then I am a believer. If you define god as the god of the bible then I am an atheist and not worried at all about going to hell.

Just a quick addition. Thanks for the reply George. You always make good points.
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« Reply #445 on: 21/04/2007 04:26:46 »
Clearly untrue?

Can you give me the evidence for believing in a god. I don't mean reasons why people believe. I know many reasons why people believe. I am saying when you look for evidence there is a severe lack of it.

I would say that substantially, reason and evidence, while not equivalent, do have a substantial overlap.

One aspect where one might look for 'evidence' is in faith healing.  The scientific answer would be the placebo effect, but if one wants to discount the scientific answer, one could look for religious answers.

A second piece of evidence might be that a society that believes in God is a more stable society, with stronger internal cohesion.  Scientific answers could look for psychological reasons for this, but again, if one discounts the scientific argument, you could give a religious argument that God rewards societies that believe in him.  Ofcourse, this same cohesion is why religion is often blamed for wars.

Another social argument for God (and probably one of the most important, in historic terms) is with regard to the hierarchy of power.  In a society where each individual is answerable to his master, a serf might be answerable to his lord, and a lord is answerable to his king, and the king must then be answerable to someone, and that someone would be God.  It is a logical progression. It must be so, since it was regarded that a man without a master was a man without a place in society, and thus a man without allegiance, and a man without morality; so if the king was to be regarded as a moral person, a person with a place in society, so he must have a master.

The point is that I am not saying that the evidence is unanswerable, only that the evidence clearly does exist, and did (at least in the pre-scientific age) give real reason to believe in God.


It always ends up coming down to faith. The god hypothesis has nothing to back it up. At least string theory has some fancy maths.

Having a mathematically constructed deity would not make the deity any more real.

Science for me answers questions that start with the word how. How did this happen? How did that come to be? for questions that start with why then I would perhaps look elsewhere. I am under the impression that the universe doesn't owe me a why. Why are we hear? Why is there something rather than nothing?

Yes, I would agree with this; as science also seeks to avoid asking the question 'who'.

The point is that in a society that is very person focused 'who' is an important question.  The modern world is a very materialistic world, where 'what' and 'how' are important, and 'who' and 'why' is totally unimportant.  Whether it is a good or a bad thing that we have moved from a world where the thing mattered less than the person, to one where the person is largely irrelevant, and the thing is the all important, might be speculated upon, but as a matter of fact, that is what has happened, and it is that shift from 'who' to 'what' that has moved us from 'God' to the Big Bang.


As for quantifying the sources or error in prediction the absence of a god. I would need a strict definition of the word god. With the multitude of definitions people give that word it makes the word almost meaningless. If god is what you call the wonder of nature then I am a believer. If you define god as the god of the bible then I am an atheist and not worried at all about going to hell.

Again, I do not disagree with any of the above; I was merely saying that making judgements as to whether the probability was 50/50, more so, or less so, was itself meaningless.

Just a quick addition. Thanks for the reply George. You always make good points.

Thank you  [:)] [^]

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« Reply #446 on: 21/04/2007 14:29:18 »
Lets bring this debate to a close:
No scientist can claim that there is no GOD.

As Feynman said- 'If it does not comply with experiment it is not science'-


but he also said "There are a lot of tricks of the mind and human perception that cause people to believe things they have no evidence for"

No Evidence, show us your evidence that there is a god.


WHERE SCIENTISTS IS YOUR EXPERIMENT TO PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST- You do not have one- you have no proff- No experiment- So that being the case any scientist that says there is no god- Is really not a scientist- Point in Fact.

No, No ,No. you must first show us the evidence that he/she does exist, then let us examine your evidence.


Atleast Feynman realised he had been a moron and repented.


So, Feynman was a moron eh. How are you qualified to call such a man such things? i Guess you have many papers published, a nobel prize, work at los alamos. I never knew you were so qualified.


and JESUS is free- to be who he wants to be- who are any of you to say how he will act or what he will say or do or dress- You all have some deluded fantasy of Jesus- Hopefully some of you will look when the time comes with open eyes and a loving heart. and not be blinded by your illusion.

P.s No one can garentee you a place in heaven- anyone says they can is working for satan. God decides no-one else.

Jesus is not free. you have collection plates and contributions. Now some religions do guarantee a place in heaven, so are they not actually religions?

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« Reply #447 on: 21/04/2007 15:27:04 »
Paul grow up. Its not my problem if you dont understand what I have said. And to say what you just did, shows you havent understood.

Jolly, yet again you have to stoop to a personal attack if someone does not agree with your position. Then what do you do? You go back and alter and add to your previous post!

How many times have you done this? if you look at your posts, a high percentage of them have an "edit". why edit your posts when you have received a reply? why not simply make a new post?

not only does this affect the reader, it shows that you can not hold your argument so resort to altering your original text to suit or make the replier look stupid.

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« Reply #448 on: 21/04/2007 15:33:07 »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The burden or proof doesn't lay with the non believer. The person making the claim must provide the proof.
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« Reply #449 on: 21/04/2007 16:49:44 »
has nothing to do with that I see spelling mistakes and add to comments to improve them others edit theres as well- your comment is unvalid- trying to make out im cheating or somthing- silly I do not alter my text I correct the spelling mistakes and add to the text- on occasion I swap words around as it reads better. But then if you dont bother reading it whats the difference. 

I do not see the point in creating loads of new boxes it makes the forum huge- when it does not need to be and gives you a huge post count- I could careless about my post count.

spelling errors are one thing. i will be the first to admit that at times my spelling is so atrocious that i have to go back and correct it.

But i do not alter the text or make additions, swap words around!!! i do believe that a few posts ago you added:


"Marx, Freud, Einstien all jewish All I believe- belived in God-
Marxs attacked how religion was used by the elites to supress the poor- he did not attack God persay. Einstien said he didnt believe in a personnel God- but that could really be seen as him saying God is for everyone, not just the jews, he just said it in a vague way to stop himself being attacked by jews.

Decartes and Hume both believed in God- Fathers both of modern philsophy and impericism.... The list gos on and on- But then as a scientist you cannot deny God- to do so is unscientific- A leap of faith- There is no evidence against- and some towards- Your free- you choose. "


that is not spell checking or altering a few words!