What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?

  • 1733 Replies
  • 320054 Views

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #700 on: 27/10/2013 17:22:51 »
I am not a ghost to come back and haunt you :
How can I miss you if you won't go away?

I do go away every single day that God makes : i do not live in here .so.



*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #701 on: 27/10/2013 17:27:34 »
Cheryl + dlorde :

There is a big difference between the materialist misinterpretations of science ,of science results , science experiments , science approaches , and pure science .

Major example ? = materialist reductionism in science+ its materialist meta-paradigm in all sciences and elsewhere  .

Example :

There are some scientific experiments concerning the fact that handicaped people might be able , in the near or far future , to  move their paralyzed , dysfunctional , amputated or other ...limbs, bodies ....via some implanted chips in the brain , or via some robots those handicaped people might get connected to via their brains' activity  .

There are also scientific facts that prove the fact to be true that people might be able , in the near or far future , to drive their own cars , move robots or machines ,just via their brain's activity or via their thoughts ...

Does that mean that human thought or consciousness are just the products of the brain's neuronal activity ?

No way .


Yup - surprisingly, I agree with all of that (except that scientific 'facts' are provisional and don't strictly 'prove' anything).
[/quote]

Well, you do misinterpret scientific experiments , scientific data ....every single day :
Major example : consciousness is allegedly created by the brain activity ,memory also, human reason or intellect also  ....to mention just that ...and that one can explain everything in terms of just physics and chemistry ...

How absurd paradoxical and unscientific can you be indeed , together with the majority of scientists today ...

See below : read that on the subject .

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #702 on: 28/10/2013 18:49:02 »
dlorde :

What do you have to say regarding what Sheldrake stated here below , regarding materialism in science : (That post of mine in question was removed for no reason really : that post is relevant to all sciences in fact ...since materialism has been dominating in all sciences and elsewhere ,for so long now ) :

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49378.new#top

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #703 on: 28/10/2013 21:31:14 »
What do you have to say regarding what Sheldrake stated...
Many of his 'ten core beliefs' of scientists are deliberately provocative straw men, misrepresentations, & red herrings (e.g.  number 1 includes a blatant false dichotomy). The few that are close to the reality are features of working models, provisional, & hypotheses based on empirical evidence. The core beliefs axioms of science are that there exists an observable, testable, objective reality, and that it behaves consistently in some respects. Scientists are a diverse bunch, but if more than a small minority of them subscribe to the essence of all those 'core beliefs', some of Sheldrake's criticism may indeed be relevant to them.

The rest of that article is a rehash of critiques of 'the problems with science' done better elsewhere, but with extra fallacies & vague handwaving. The most obvious fallacy is the common conflation of 'unexplained' with 'inexplicable' with regard to a particular methodology.

In general, I refer you to my previous post on Sheldrake (#493).
« Last Edit: 28/10/2013 21:33:07 by dlorde »

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #704 on: 29/10/2013 17:23:40 »
What do you have to say regarding what Sheldrake stated...
Many of his 'ten core beliefs' of scientists are deliberately provocative straw men, misrepresentations, & red herrings (e.g.  number 1 includes a blatant false dichotomy). The few that are close to the reality are features of working models, provisional, & hypotheses based on empirical evidence. The core beliefs axioms of science are that there exists an observable, testable, objective reality, and that it behaves consistently in some respects. Scientists are a diverse bunch, but if more than a small minority of them subscribe to the essence of all those 'core beliefs', some of Sheldrake's criticism may indeed be relevant to them.

The rest of that article is a rehash of critiques of 'the problems with science' done better elsewhere, but with extra fallacies & vague handwaving. The most obvious fallacy is the common conflation of 'unexplained' with 'inexplicable' with regard to a particular methodology.

In general, I refer you to my previous post on Sheldrake (#493).
[/quote]

Weak "argumentation " : how can you deny that materialism as a secular false belief has been dominating in all aciences and elsewhere,for so long now  ?
How can you deny the fact that  the mechanistic materialist world view ideology has been taken for  granted without question but the mainstream scientific extablishment or community ?
The mechanistic materialist world view-ideology  that dates back to the 19th century at least , that remains not only largely taken for granted , but also remains largely considered  to be as science , together with all its extensions such as "the mind is in the brain " , that " human cognition is just a matter of neuronal comuptation", that "consciousness is just an emergent property from the evolved complexity of the brain ...
In short : that everything can be explained in terms of physics and chemistry , and that reality is exclusively material physical ...
How can you deny all that and more ? all those mechanistic materialist belief assumptions that are still considered to be as ...science ?
Amazing ,but not really unexpected from you = very predictable indeed .
So much for a .....so-called scientist such as yourself who cannot see yet that simple obvious and undeniable fact that materialism is not science ....
Unbelievable ...

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #705 on: 29/10/2013 18:13:41 »
.. how can you deny that materialism as a secular false belief has been dominating in all aciences and elsewhere ...  ?
How can you deny the fact that  the mechanistic materialist world view ideology has been taken for  granted without question but the mainstream scientific extablishment or community ?
How can you deny all that and more ? all those mechanistic materialist belief assumptions that are still considered to be as ...science ?
I haven't yet denied any of it - although it's complete nonsense of course; but I don't deny claims that ducks wear gas masks, either. My last post was the response to Sheldrake's quote you requested, all criticism, no denials.

If you'd like to respond to what I write rather than what you think I might believe, a discussion might be possible. History suggests this isn't going to happen, but I thought I'd mention it.

If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" (yet, as you say, is restricted to the material world), by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better.

You keep making the claim, but repetition alone doesn't make it convincing. You need to make your point, otherwise we just have a Monty Python situation.
« Last Edit: 29/10/2013 18:29:22 by dlorde »

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #706 on: 29/10/2013 18:35:02 »
.. how can you deny that materialism as a secular false belief has been dominating in all aciences and elsewhere ...  ?
How can you deny the fact that  the mechanistic materialist world view ideology has been taken for  granted without question but the mainstream scientific extablishment or community ?
How can you deny all that and more ? all those mechanistic materialist belief assumptions that are still considered to be as ...science ?
I haven't yet denied any of it - although it's complete nonsense of course; I don't deny claims that ducks wear gas masks, either. My last post was the response to Sheldrake's quote you requested, all criticism, no denials.

If you do not deny the above i mentioned , then try to address that then  clearly ,instead of using those sorts of circular "reasoning " or exit strategies  .
Your post in question here above was no real or clear  criticism of what Sheldrake said about materialism in science: just try to address what he said regarding materialism in science at least ,specifically and  clearly then : i did summarise Sheldrake's words for you here above in my latest post to you thus  .

P.S.: I told you earlier i was no fan of Sheldrake's so-called morphic resonance theory ,i am only interested in his so- true criticism of that false and unscientific materialist mechanistic conception of nature in all sciences and elsewhere ,that has been taken for granted for so long now ,as ...science .
I do not really need Sheldrake to specify to you why materialism is false , why is it a false world view ideology that has been imposing itself for so long now as science , in all sciences and elsewhere .
Quote
If you'd like to respond to what I write rather than what you think I might believe, a discussion might be possible. History suggests this isn't going to happen, but I thought I'd mention it.

Well, just address my words here above , in my latest post then , instead of using just semantics , circular "arguments ", and empty rhetorics regardig what Sheldrake said about materialism in science .
Try to be specific then .
« Last Edit: 29/10/2013 18:37:17 by DonQuichotte »

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #707 on: 29/10/2013 18:54:55 »
If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" (yet, as you say, is restricted to the material world), by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better.

You keep making the claim, but repetition alone doesn't make it convincing. You need to make your point, otherwise we just have a Monty Python situation.

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #708 on: 29/10/2013 18:56:29 »
.. how can you deny that materialism as a secular false belief has been dominating in all aciences and elsewhere ...  ?
How can you deny the fact that  the mechanistic materialist world view ideology has been taken for  granted without question but the mainstream scientific extablishment or community ?
How can you deny all that and more ? all those mechanistic materialist belief assumptions that are still considered to be as ...science ?

If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" (yet, as you say, is restricted to the material world), by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better.

God ...
It's not "if i really think science is ....", it;s rather a fact that science has been dominated for so long now by the materialist false and unscientific world view ideology , that gets taken for granted as science , can't you understand just that ?
Did you actually really read what Sheldrake said on the subject in his introduction to his "science set free ..." book , i did provide you with a link to ?
Science , once again , is concerned mainly by the material side of reality , but there is more to reality than just that : materialism in science wanna make people  believe that reality as a whole is just exclusively material ,worse ; materialism imposes that false conception of his /her or it or whatever as science = that has major consequences regarding the fact that science as a result sees reality as a whole , and dead wrongly so ,  as exclusively material, thanks to materialism = science sees consciousness, life as a whole, reality as a whole, the origins of life ,its emergence evolution and origins, the same goes for consciousness, and the rest , science sees them as exclusively material , thanks to materialism thus= wrong or false materialist unscientific assumption of the nature of reality as a whole in science , that gets taken for granted as science , thanks to that false materialist unscientific dominating conception of nature in all sciences ...
Get that ?
We need first to establish these simple obvious undeniable facts (It's really insane to have to try ,nowadays, to convince people of simple obvious undeniable facts like that , per definition = every sane intelligent person should recognize and acknowledge those simple obvious undeniable facts as such thus,logically  )  , then we can proceed regarding the potential eventual alternatives to materialism in all sciences ...
Quote

You keep making the claim, but repetition alone doesn't make it convincing. You need to make your point, otherwise we just have a Monty Python situation.

Those were / are no claims , but facts = the materialist false and unscientific conception of nature or ideology world view has been taken for granted for so long now as ...science : can't you understand just that ? Come, on .
Amazing ...

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #709 on: 29/10/2013 19:36:47 »
... science as a result sees reality as a whole ... science sees consciousness, life as a whole, reality as a whole, ..., science sees them as exclusively material...
Science doesn't 'see', or have opinions or beliefs - it is the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. Scientists can see, and have a wide variety of opinions and beliefs. You seem to be confusing the two.

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #710 on: 29/10/2013 19:58:00 »
... science as a result sees reality as a whole ... science sees consciousness, life as a whole, reality as a whole, ..., science sees them as exclusively material...
Science doesn't 'see', or have opinions or beliefs - it is the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. Scientists can see, and have a wide variety of opinions and beliefs. You seem to be confusing the two.
[/quote]

Science "sees ..." was just a metaphorical figure of speech .
Why don't you address what i and Sheldrake said about the materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system dominating in all sciences for that matter , and elsewhere .
Once again, the mainstream dominating conception of nature in all sciences and elsewhere has been ...the materialist one ,since the 19 th century and counting = materialist dominating belief assumptions that do have absolutely nothing to do with the empirical science as such, even though they have been taken for granted as such as ...science  .

You're really making me nuts , by not being able to grasp this simple obvious and undeniable fact , over and over again ......for so long now : incredible .
So much for a so-called scientist ...
Amazing ...
You have been so irritating and frustrating that i just did let, unintentionally ,my glass of coffee fall and break as a result ...........

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #711 on: 29/10/2013 21:51:32 »
Why don't you address what i and Sheldrake said about the materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system dominating in all sciences for that matter , and elsewhere .
Once again, the mainstream dominating conception of nature in all sciences and elsewhere has been ...the materialist one ,since the 19 th century and counting = materialist dominating belief assumptions that do have absolutely nothing to do with the empirical science as such, even though they have been taken for granted as such as ...science  .
I have already. Let me clarify: I think the claim is incoherent and unsubstantiated.

If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.

Quote
You have been so irritating and frustrating that i just did let, unintentionally ,my glass of coffee fall and break as a result ...........
You are funny! but I accept no responsibility for your lack of control :)

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #712 on: 29/10/2013 22:01:17 »
Why don't you address what i and Sheldrake said about the materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system dominating in all sciences for that matter , and elsewhere .
Once again, the mainstream dominating conception of nature in all sciences and elsewhere has been ...the materialist one ,since the 19 th century and counting = materialist dominating belief assumptions that do have absolutely nothing to do with the empirical science as such, even though they have been taken for granted as such as ...science  .
I have already. Let me clarify: I think the claim is incoherent and unsubstantiated.

If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.

Quote
You have been so irritating and frustrating that i just did let, unintentionally ,my glass of coffee fall and break as a result ...........
You are funny! but I accept no responsibility for your lack of control :)
[/quote]

God ...

Is reality as a whole just physical material ?
Think about that and the rest , and tell me about it .
No time left , sorry .
Ciao

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #713 on: 29/10/2013 23:22:32 »
God ...
Your imaginary friend?

Quote
Is reality as a whole just physical material ?
That's what the evidence suggests (unless you count the imaginary). How could it do otherwise?

If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.
« Last Edit: 29/10/2013 23:24:22 by dlorde »

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #714 on: 30/10/2013 15:52:18 »
God ...


Quote
Is reality as a whole just physical material ?
That's what the evidence suggests (unless you count the imaginary). How could it do otherwise?

If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.


That seems like a fair request. And it also illustrates the problem with Sheldrake and Nagel. They are big on criticism, and short on any detailed explanation of how to test hypotheses their way.
« Last Edit: 30/10/2013 15:56:37 by cheryl j »

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #715 on: 30/10/2013 16:07:55 »
How can I miss you if you won't go away?
I do go away every single day that God makes : i do not live in here .so.
Hmm; even people who don't know Dan Hicks usually get the joke.

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #716 on: 30/10/2013 17:35:24 »
God ...
Your imaginary friend?

Stop this materialist non-sense , it's not even funny .

Quote
Quote
Is reality as a whole just physical material ?
That's what the evidence suggests (unless you count the imaginary). How could it do otherwise?

Ho, ho , now you're getting ahead of yourself : unbelievable : what evidence are you talking about , Alice ? : materialist fantasy ?
Quote
If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.

Thanks to materialism, science is deluded into assuming that reality is exclusively material physical .
Science that tries to explain reality , therefore is science misleaded into dealing with reality as a whole just through  that materialist key hole ,while assuming that what science can "see " through that materialist key hole is all there is out there : that has major consequences for science in relation to the nature origins and emergence of consciousness, life , feelings , emotions , memory,human reason  ....and the rest .
Even the inanimate matter is not just material physical = science gives therefore a distorted reflection of reality as a whole ,thanks to materialism in science , despite all those great achievements of science ,unfortunately enough .


*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #717 on: 30/10/2013 17:49:38 »
God ...


Quote
Is reality as a whole just physical material ?
That's what the evidence suggests (unless you count the imaginary). How could it do otherwise?

If you really think science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then by all means explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.


That seems like a fair request. And it also illustrates the problem with Sheldrake and Nagel. They are big on criticism, and short on any detailed explanation of how to test hypotheses their way.
[/quote]

See my reply to dlorde here above .
You're so blinded by materialism that you do take it for granted as science without question : it   rather illustrates the problem of materialists such as yourself who cannot or do not want to see that that false and unscientific materialist irrational belief of theirs has abolutely nothing to do with science , materialist belief that has just been holding science  back  for so long now , the outdated and superseded materialist belief that dates back to the 19th century , materialist belief that has been imposed on science as science in order to try to "validate " itself, in vain of course , materialist belief that's just been taking a free ride on the unwilling back of science .
It makes no sense whatsoever to assume that reality as a whole is exclusively material physical = a childish idiotic irrational false , and , per definition, an unscientific assumption science has never proved to be "true " ,simply because science deals only with the empirical observable verifiable falsifiable reproducible ...part of reality = science can therefore say nothing , per definition , regarding the other part of reality = the immaterial one,that does therefore not mean that the latter does not exist as such  .
Is that so difficult to understand or grasp ?

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #718 on: 30/10/2013 18:02:32 »
... science gives therefore a distorted reflection of reality as a whole ,thanks to materialism in science...
OK, we get the point; endless repetition doesn't help. Why not answer the obvious questions:

If science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #719 on: 30/10/2013 18:18:12 »
My own beliefs are not the issue here Don. I've already stated my views, and the reasons behind them.

Do you not see any contradiction in what you have just written above? Do you not see anything wrong with your statements:

1) materialist belief has been holding science back
2) materialist belief  has been imposed on science
3)  materialist belief has been taking a free ride on the unwilling back of science
4)  reality as a whole is not exclusively material or physical
5) science deals only with the empirical observable verifiable falsifiable reproducible part of reality
6) science can therefore say nothing , per definition , regarding the other part of reality, the immaterial

Nobody ever disputed that "reality" might include the immaterial, but if science can say nothing verifiable about the immaterial, what is your beef with scientists for ignoring it?

How can you complain about people not doing something that you've just said is impossible for them to do? How can you fault them for not doing it?
« Last Edit: 30/10/2013 19:12:26 by cheryl j »

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #720 on: 30/10/2013 19:25:57 »
Quote
Has science ever proved the materialist "fact " to be "true " , or rather the materialist belief assumption to be "true " that reality as a whole is just exclusively physical material ?

Why on Earth would science even be interested? Science doesn't deal with "reality as a whole", Learning does. Science deals with "Observable Reality".

For example, I believe in God, but I do not believe that science can or will ever prove or disprove God. Of course, God is not observable and, consequently, science is not in the least interested in proving or disproving God. My concept of Reality - my areas of Learning, if you like - encompass more than science, but I consider them all equally valid and quite distinct.

Well, that's the core issue here : the core materialist belief assumption is that the whole reality is exclusively material physical = everyhting can be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry alone , so science has been assuming the same false materialis assumption since the 19th century at least

That the whole reality is physical material = there is no God, no immaterial side of reality ...=  all sciences under the exclusive monopoly and supremacy dominance of materialism thus have been assuming therefore that the whole reality is exclusively material physical = there is no God, no immaterial side of reality ...even though science , per definition, can neither prove nor disprove the existence of neither God nor that of the  immaterial side of reality thus  .
But , proper science as such can indeed thus neither prove nor disprove God or the immaterial side of reality : materialism has thus been making science go beyond its own relam and jurisdiction .

Science proper must and will get rid of that false materialist conception of nature indeed .

If you trace back materialism to its historic cultural ideological political philosophical economic ...Eurocentric roots , you would notice that materialism has been just a product of medieval 's Europe religious conflicts : materialism that has been anti-religion since then, by rejecting anything that is not observable testable empirical .... : materialism goes thus beyond science and its scientific method, beyond both the realm and jurisdiction of science , while imposing all that as science  :
materialism that , per definition, can only lead to atheism  and reductionism by reducing everything to just physics and chemistry , by rejecting christianity  and all other religions as well  = there is no God , no immaterial reality ...= materialist ideological belief assumptions that have been imposed on science since the 19th century at least as science , for obvious ideological materialist purposes , in order for materialism to "be able to validate itself as being true " through science as science : so, science has been assuming that the whole reality is material physical thus , thanks to materialism thus , science has been therefore assuming, since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialsm thus ,  that everything = the whole reality thus can be explained in terms of physics and chemsitry only : an obviously false assumption in all sciences and elsewhere , science gotta get rid of , and science will indeed = inevitable = just a question of ...time thus .
Only time will tell then ....

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #721 on: 30/10/2013 19:31:58 »
Science can try to approach the non-physical and non-biological non-material side of reality as a whole

And there, I believe, is the rub. Yes, Science can, but then it wouldn't be Science. It comes back to the confusion about what "science" is that I mentioned in my last post.

Science tries to deal only with the observable empirical faslifiable verifiable reproducible part of reality  indeed  , so, science can therefore also study  telepathy , pyshic and other claims of some people via trying to test them to see if those claims can be reproducible verifiable falsifiable  testable  ....but , science can say indeed nothing regarding the nature of telepathy , the nature of the alleged psychic skills ....
There are many forms of the scientific method , not just one thus : cosmologists , for example , cannot put stars , planets , galaxies ...the sun haha ...into the lab to study them..........they have their own scientific ways of studying them as you know .


Quote
Science is not and never will be the spring of all knowledge. The correct term for this is Learning and its goal is, basically, knowing all there is to know. Its a pretty big area so, in order to acquire Learning, we break it down in to various areas. Science is just one, along with many others, both respectable and not. Science deals with the observable, basta! There may come a day when our descendants can tick of the "science" box in Learning because science has done its job. It has classified everything that can be observed. Perhaps, along the way, we will evolve additional sensory mechanisms and science will need expanding; who knows where such an expansion could lead?

Science is indeed not the only valid source of knowledge , science has no monopoly of the truth either , science can only cover a tiny piece of reality , the known one so far at least , that does not mean that all what science cannot observe test verify falsify reproduce ....is false or that that does not exist as such  , as materialism in science assumes so wrongly of course , for obvious materialist ideological reasons thus= materialists assume thus that the whole reality is just physical material , and therefore reject God, religions , telepathy , psychic powers ...but , pure science or science proper can neither prove nor disprove the existence of the immaterial side of reality in fact thus , the existence of God ....= do you see here the major difference between materialism as a false belief and science ? materialism that gets sold to the people as science by making science reduce verything= the whole reality  to just physics and chemistry thus , including life , consciousness, memory , human love , human spirituality , human reason , human conscience ...

Science cannot , per definition , make us know thus all there is to know out there , simply because science deals only with that tiny piece of reality it can observe test reproduce verify falsify ....

Science is a human limited tool instrument to understand and explain reality thus , the part of reality it can deal with , science is thus no magic or no Alaaddin magical lamp ,despite its huge achievements , despite its highly effective and unparalleled method (s) that's like no other , despite its high descipline ....
Those science's ideals of unbiased objective disciplined methodic approaches  of reality are rarely reached by scientists humans : proof ? : that false materialist belief in all sciences and elsewhere that gets taken for granted without question as science , by the mainstream scientific establishment or community = objectivity is a myth .

Do not forget either that science is just a human social activity, a form of culture , practiced by scientists humans via their limited faculties, flaws ,shortcomings , beliefs (see the materialist belief that's been dominating in all sciences for that matter and elsewhere , materialist belief that gets presented and sold to the people as science , while materialism as a false world view has nothing to do with science , science has never proved , and can never prove the materialist "fact ", or rather the materialist belief assumption to be "true " that reality as a whole is exclusively material physical , simply because science deals only with the observable testable verifiable empirical ...side of reality , and therefore science can say nothing , per definition, regarding the other potential part of reality = that does not mean that the latter does not exist as such .), science is practiced thus by scientists humans through their whole beings ,objectivity in science is a myth in fact : proof ? = the  false and , per definition, unscientific materialist belief that's been dominating in all sciences and elsewhere , and that gets taken for granted as science by the majority of scientists today .

Maybe , in the future , it's highly probable indeed in fact that man will be able to extend or broaden his/her understanding of what science is , what the scientific method is , through developing an extended scientific method through its epistemology that might deliver some new understandings of science and its core epistemology , via highly probable undersandings of what man is , what man's consciousness might be,relatively speaking  , what man's reason emotions feelings intuition and senses are really = that might deliver some advanced forms of the scientific method or methods ...
Technology might also broaden our own understanding of man , nature , the universe ....= in still unimaginable ways-to-all-of-us yet .
Only time will tell then indeed , but we might be not there to witness just that ourselves, who knows .

Quote
In the meantime it is Sciences job to define the origin of life according to what it can observe and test. Science is not there yet but it is making great headway. It is counter-productive to muddy the boundaries between science and other areas of Learning, unless one is selling sensational books or videos; I have no time for Shelldrakes or any of the myriad psuedo-scientists of the religious press who are constantly using this tactic to denigrate science. It is what it is.

As long as science will keep on reducing the whole reality to just physics and chemistry (thanks to materialism ) , including life , consciousness , emotions feelings , human reason , human conscience ....science will just be giving us a distorted reflection of reality as a whole  ,unfortunately enough .
Only when science will reject materialism , an inevitable fact , simply because materialism is outdated false and has been superseded by the physical sciences themselves even , and simply because science's self-rejuvenating and self - cleansing , self - regenerating critical powers faculties and inrinsic properties can enable science to reject all false assumptions , including and mainly those of materialism , when science thus will be able to do just that , whole   unimaginable new vistas will open up for science , when science will cease thus to "see " the whole reality as just a matter of physics and chemistry thus.

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #722 on: 30/10/2013 22:55:27 »
You know one minute I think I'm in one thread, and then I'm magically transported to another.

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #723 on: 30/10/2013 23:07:43 »
Smart Neurons: Single Neuronal Dendrites Can Perform Computations
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131027140632.htm

Well this is kind of interesting to ponder.
 
"The scientists achieved an important breakthrough: they succeeded in making incredibly challenging electrical and optical recordings directly from the tiny dendrites of neurons in the intact brain while the brain was processing visual information.....The results challenge the widely held view that this kind of computation is achieved only by large numbers of neurons working together, and demonstrate how the basic components of the brain are exceptionally powerful computing devices in their own right."

The study was published this week in Nature.

*

Offline SimpleEngineer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 117
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #724 on: 31/10/2013 15:31:21 »

As long as science will keep on reducing the whole reality to just physics and chemistry (thanks to materialism ) , including life , consciousness , emotions feelings , human reason , human conscience ....science will just be giving us a distorted reflection of reality as a whole  ,unfortunately enough .
Only when science will reject materialism , an inevitable fact , simply because materialism is outdated false and has been superseded by the physical sciences themselves even , and simply because science's self-rejuvenating and self - cleansing , self - regenerating critical powers faculties and inrinsic properties can enable science to reject all false assumptions , including and mainly those of materialism , when science thus will be able to do just that , whole   unimaginable new vistas will open up for science , when science will cease thus to "see " the whole reality as just a matter of physics and chemistry thus.


I wouldnt say science tries to reduce things to chemistry and physics. I would say that what science can observe is chemistry and physics by nature.. because science cant explain things doesn't mean they will stop trying to as that is the nature of science. You state things which have yet to be proven as not chemistry or physics as things that cannot be proven by chemistry or physics, as things that aren't chemistry or physics.. but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Science has recently (last century on wards) tried to tell us things work in a certain way without solid proof.. and it is a trend that worries me (as I have posted a few threads and posts about the very same subject) but science itself abhors these, and it will eventually weed them out. Its not a battle against spiritualism, its trying to find an explanation for it. Saying "you will never know" is about as much use as reading a book from a hat to form a religion.. (oh wait someone did that).

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #725 on: 31/10/2013 18:26:21 »
Smart Neurons: Single Neuronal Dendrites Can Perform Computations
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131027140632.htm

Well this is kind of interesting to ponder.
 
"The scientists achieved an important breakthrough: they succeeded in making incredibly challenging electrical and optical recordings directly from the tiny dendrites of neurons in the intact brain while the brain was processing visual information.....The results challenge the widely held view that this kind of computation is achieved only by large numbers of neurons working together, and demonstrate how the basic components of the brain are exceptionally powerful computing devices in their own right."

The study was published this week in Nature.
[/quote]

Cristal-clear typical example of the mechanistic   materialism at work in science , as ...science = the brain neuronal activity allegedly creates vision, images , consciousness  as a whole, human reason  ...via our senses = materialist computational mechanistic pure bullshit = materialist mechanistic misinterpretation   of scientific experiments = living organisms s are no machines in fact = that machine -like , computer -like computation analogy is outdated and alse.
The brain is in fact both a generator via our senses , and a receiver , in relation to consciousness as an immaterial transmitter : how brain and consciousness do interact with each other = how the physical material biological brain interacts with the non -physical non-material non-biological immaterial consciousness ? : beat me .
« Last Edit: 31/10/2013 18:32:40 by DonQuichotte »

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #726 on: 31/10/2013 18:40:32 »

As long as science will keep on reducing the whole reality to just physics and chemistry (thanks to materialism ) , including life , consciousness , emotions feelings , human reason , human conscience ....science will just be giving us a distorted reflection of reality as a whole  ,unfortunately enough .
Only when science will reject materialism , an inevitable fact , simply because materialism is outdated false and has been superseded by the physical sciences themselves even , and simply because science's self-rejuvenating and self - cleansing , self - regenerating critical powers faculties and inrinsic properties can enable science to reject all false assumptions , including and mainly those of materialism , when science thus will be able to do just that , whole   unimaginable new vistas will open up for science , when science will cease thus to "see " the whole reality as just a matter of physics and chemistry thus.


I wouldnt say science tries to reduce things to chemistry and physics. I would say that what science can observe is chemistry and physics by nature.. because science cant explain things doesn't mean they will stop trying to as that is the nature of science. You state things which have yet to be proven as not chemistry or physics as things that cannot be proven by chemistry or physics, as things that aren't chemistry or physics.. but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Science has recently (last century on wards) tried to tell us things work in a certain way without solid proof.. and it is a trend that worries me (as I have posted a few threads and posts about the very same subject) but science itself abhors these, and it will eventually weed them out. Its not a battle against spiritualism, its trying to find an explanation for it. Saying "you will never know" is about as much use as reading a book from a hat to form a religion.. (oh wait someone did that).
[/quote]

Wrong :  what are you talking about ?
That's not what i was saying :
Science "assumes " that reality as a whole is exclusively material physical ,thanks to materialism = everything can be explained in terms of physics and chemistry = that's a false materialist belief assumption that has been dominating in all sciences and elsewhere for that matter since the 19th century at least ,while science proper can in fact only deal with the observable empirical ...
To reduce everything to just physics and chemistry is thus a false materialist belief assumption that does go beyond both the scientific method itself and beyond science's realm and jurisdiction .
Is that so difficult to understand ?
I say one thing and you talk about another , what's the matter with you , people ?
Amazing ...

*

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • 4908
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #727 on: 01/11/2013 09:05:42 »
Wrong, as usual. The art of science is not to make untestable assumptions, and to test any that you do make. Unlike whatever it is that you consider to be a superior intellectual process, wherein it seems that all assertions are deemed to be true, regardless of absurdity. I thought Aristotle and Plato were dead.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #728 on: 01/11/2013 18:01:14 »
Wrong, as usual. The art of science is not to make untestable assumptions, and to test any that you do make. Unlike whatever it is that you consider to be a superior intellectual process, wherein it seems that all assertions are deemed to be true, regardless of absurdity. I thought Aristotle and Plato were dead.

Modern science has been reducing reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #729 on: 03/11/2013 10:55:21 »
Modern science has been reducing observable, empirical reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .
Fixed that for you ;)

If it's not observable & empirical, you can't reduce it to physics and chemistry. Speculation & hypothesis is not, of itself, science.

It's worth remembering that, just as not everything a writer does is writing, not everything scientists do is science.
« Last Edit: 03/11/2013 11:26:54 by dlorde »

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #730 on: 03/11/2013 17:26:58 »
Modern science has been reducing observable, empirical reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .
Fixed that for you ;)

If it's not observable & empirical, you can't reduce it to physics and chemistry. Speculation & hypothesis is not, of itself, science.

It's worth remembering that, just as not everything a writer does is writing, not everything scientists do is science.
[/quote]

Come , on : as a scientist , you should know better than that :
Science has been pretending to know the  nature of the whole reality as such already , thanks to materialism , by considering the whole reality as such as  just physical material biological processes = by reducing everything to just physics and chemistry + to their materialist extensions such as "the mind is in the brain", "memory is stored in the brain ", "consciousness is just an emergent property emerging from the evolutionary complexity of neuronal activity ..." ...

Do i have to remind you of the meta-paradigm dominating in all sciences and elsewhere , once again ?, the materialist one = reality as a whole is just material physical ...= just a matter of physics and chemistry at its ultimate core + just a matter of the extensions of the latter ...at the macroscopic levels ........
« Last Edit: 03/11/2013 17:30:07 by DonQuichotte »

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #731 on: 03/11/2013 18:39:19 »


Modern science has been reducing reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .


I can't help but notice that you are now substituting "reality as a whole" for "science" in your argument. I'm not sure what you want from scientists, an official announcement that something may exist that science cannot verify or falsify? A public apology for "failing" to explain everything "fully" ?
You've never described how science is supposed to incorporate the immaterial into experiments, how doing so will benefit them or free them - free them to do what?

At any rate, as dlorde said, scientists do other things and have other interests beside science. It is not the whole of their reality. CERN has Artists in Residence and some of their projects are pretty cool. Here is a link to their gallery.
 http://arts.web.cern.ch/gallery/norfolk/

 Some of the projects are visual, but others are an interesting combinations of art and science, art and technology, and art and the experimental process.  Their first artist in residence, Juliuis Von Bismarck, has some interesting things, a device called the Image Fulgurator, a hacked camera that injected stealth images into other peopleís photos when they werenít looking. In a work called Public Face, he mounted a giant neon smiley above the city of Berlin; the smiley changed its expression based on
algorithms developed by the Fraunhofer Institute to analyze peoplesí faces on the street. A project called Self Revolving Torus is an exploration of toroidal shapes.
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/03/cern-artist-von-bismarck/

On a personal note, once I was in the MoMA in New York, and there was this painting that looked like an abstract work, but having spent the last five years looking through a microscope for parasites, I knew instantly that it was a trichrome stain of human fecal material. The title of the painting was "Good Government." (I was the only person in the museum that day who laughed.) In the lab, I often looked through the microscope and seen images that would make great paintings.

You might like this sculpture from another CERN artist, it's called "Feeling Material."
« Last Edit: 03/11/2013 19:08:05 by cheryl j »

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #732 on: 03/11/2013 19:22:59 »


Modern science has been reducing reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .


I can't help but notice that you are now substituting "reality as a whole" for "science" in your argument. I'm not sure what you want from scientists, an official announcement that something may exist that science cannot verify or falsify? A public apology for "failing" to explain everything "fully" ?
You've never described how science is supposed to incorporate the immaterial into experiments, how doing so will benefit them or free them - free them to do what?

At any rate, as dlorde said, scientists do other things and have other interests beside science. It is not the whole of their reality. CERN has Artists in Residence and some of their projects are pretty cool. Here is a link to their gallery.
 http://arts.web.cern.ch/gallery/norfolk/

 Some of the projects are visual, but others are an interesting combinations of art and science, art and technology, and art and the experimental process.  Their first artist in residence, Juliuis Von Bismarck, has some interesting things, a device called the Image Fulgurator, a hacked camera that injected stealth images into other peopleís photos when they werenít looking. In a work called Public Face, he mounted a giant neon smiley above the city of Berlin; the smiley changed its expression based on
algorithms developed by the Fraunhofer Institute to analyze peoplesí faces on the street. A project called Self Revolving Torus is an exploration of toroidal shapes.
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/03/cern-artist-von-bismarck/

On a personal note, once I was in the MoMA in New York, and there was this painting that looked like an abstract work, but having spent the last five years looking through a microscope for parasites, I knew instantly that it was a trichrome stain of human fecal material. The title of the painting was "Good Government." (I was the only person in the museum that day who laughed.) In the lab, I often looked through the microscope and seen images that would make great paintings.

You might like this sculpture from another CERN artist, it's called "Feeling Material."
[/quote]

What does this have to do with what i have been saying then ?

Please ,do not put words in my mouth , and do not distort my words beyond any recognition : try to re-read what i have been saying carefully before responding , thanks , appreciate indeed :
All i am saying , once again , is that science is only concerned with the observable, empirical ....part of reality science should limit itself to , but science has been going beyond its own scientific method , beyond its own realm and jurisdiction for so long now , thanks to materialism, by considering the whole reality as a whole as such as allegedly being   just material physical ...............= science "pretends " to know the nature of reality as a whole already (Wao ) , thanks to materialism .
Science should stop doing the latter , simply because the assumption that reality as a whole is just physical material is no 'scientific empirical observable faslifiable ...fact or assumption ", but just a materialist belief assumption in science , a false materialist conception of nature in science ,that gets taken for granted as science ...without question = a dogmatic materialist belief assumption in science , as science .

In short :
Science should be in fact only confined indeed to only the observable , empirical ...part of reality , the rest of reality is therefore , per definition , both outside of science's realm and oustide of science's jurisdiction as well = science must be liberated from that materialist false dogmatic belief system dominating in all sciences at least  ...that gets taken for granted without question as science :
Only then, can science become less dogmatic and more ...scientific , as science should be .


Get that ?

God...
« Last Edit: 03/11/2013 19:29:00 by DonQuichotte »

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #733 on: 03/11/2013 20:50:09 »

All i am saying , once again , is that science is only concerned with the observable, empirical ....part of reality science should limit itself to , but science has been going beyond its own scientific method , beyond its own realm and jurisdiction for so long now

How has science gone beyond its jurisdiction to attack non materialist views? How is a chemist doing chemistry experiments, or a physicist doing physics experts, or an entomologist doing bug experiments, or an ichthyologist doing fish experiments,  going beyond their jurisdiction???  Who are these evil scientists who sit in their evil labs and create materialist paradigms to brainwash the unsuspecting masses?
« Last Edit: 03/11/2013 20:52:02 by cheryl j »

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #734 on: 03/11/2013 21:31:05 »

All i am saying , once again , is that science is only concerned with the observable, empirical ....part of reality science should limit itself to , but science has been going beyond its own scientific method , beyond its own realm and jurisdiction for so long now

How has science gone beyond its jurisdiction to attack non materialist views? How is a chemist doing chemistry experiments, or a physicist doing physics experts, or an entomologist doing bug experiments, or an ichthyologist doing fish experiments,  going beyond their jurisdiction???  Who are these evil scientists who sit in their evil labs and create materialist paradigms to brainwash the unsuspecting masses?
[/quote]

(Regardless of your irrelevant rhetorics on the subject ) :

Materialism has been, once again, dominating in all sciences and elsewhere , including in the so-called human sciences , including in anthropology , history writing , sociology , evolutionary psychology, economy, political science , including in religions ' comparisons studies , including in philosophy  ...including even in art and literature .

Secular materialist establishment that 's been the undisputed dominating cultural social scientific ....supreme and ultimate authority ,that had replaced that of the medieval church and christianity ,  thanks to the Eurocentric "enlightenment " movement ...

Biology as the 'science of life " also reduces life to just physics and chemistry thus , thanks to materialism or physicalism as some like to put it , including all the physical sciences ...

Science and most scientists have been wrong in assuming that reality as a whole is just material physical  =(= a materialist false belief assumption , false conception of nature ) , thanks to materialism thus , so, everything , including human consciousness,human free will, the human mind or reason,  life in general  (including its origins evolution and emergence ) , human reason , feelings , emotions ....human love,consciousness in general,  ....have been reduced to just material biological physical processes , via some neuronal machine-like ,computer -like computational magical mechanisms , emergent property magical tricks regarding consciousness ...

So, logically , science would consider all non-materialist beliefs for that matter , all of the immaterial side of reality , all of the immaterial side of life , ....as just products of physics and chemistry ,including consciousness, human reason , human love ... or as just illusions , delusions ...

" The scientific world view " is therefore materialist = rejects and excludes a-priori any non-materialist world views or non-material phenomena , including the non-physical and non-material non-biological side of reality as a whole .

Get that ?

Bye
« Last Edit: 03/11/2013 21:42:38 by DonQuichotte »

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #735 on: 03/11/2013 22:29:53 »

(Regardless of your irrelevant rhetorics on the subject ) :

Materialism has been, once again, dominating in all sciences and elsewhere , including in the so-called human sciences , including in anthropology , history writing , sociology , evolutionary psychology, economy, political science , including in religions ' comparisons studies , including in philosophy  ...including even in art and literature .

Secular materialist establishment that 's been the undisputed dominating cultural social scientific ....supreme and ultimate authority ,that had replaced that of the medieval church and christianity ,  thanks to the Eurocentric "enlightenment " movement ...

Biology as the 'science of life " also reduces life to just physics and chemistry thus , thanks to materialism or physicalism as some like to put it , including all the physical sciences ...

Science and most scientists have been wrong in assuming that reality as a whole is just material physical  =(= a materialist false belief assumption , false conception of nature ) , thanks to materialism thus , so, everything , including human consciousness,human free will, the human mind or reason,  life in general  (including its origins evolution and emergence ) , human reason , feelings , emotions ....human love,consciousness in general,  ....have been reduced to just material biological physical processes , via some neuronal machine-like ,computer -like computational magical mechanisms , emergent property magical tricks regarding consciousness ...

So, logically , science would consider all non-materialist beliefs for that matter , all of the immaterial side of reality , all of the immaterial side of life , ....as just products of physics and chemistry ,including consciousness, human reason , human love ... or as just illusions , delusions ...

" The scientific world view " is therefore materialist = rejects and excludes a-priori any non-materialist world views or non-material phenomena , including the non-physical and non-material non-biological side of reality as a whole .

Get that ?

Bye

Who is the "secular materialist establishment?" Who is their leader and high ranking officials? Where are their offices located?

Don, you're attacking an enemy that doesn't exist. You are opposing an argument that scientists don't make.

I've never read a neurology experiment that ended with "oh, and by the way, the mind doesn't exist and you are all souless automatrons."

I've never seen a physics experiment refuting the existence of God.

I've never read a sociology paper titled "The Non-existence of Love."

I've never seen a biology experiment that said "In conclusion, when you die, you rot in the ground and there is no afterlife."

Although, there was research done by a religious institution claiming that black holes fulfill all the technical requirements to be the location of Hell.  (Jack  and Van Impe, 2001.) Religious nuts don't have a problem stretching science's "jurisdiction" when it suits them.

« Last Edit: 04/11/2013 02:29:00 by cheryl j »

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #736 on: 04/11/2013 18:00:16 »

(Regardless of your irrelevant rhetorics on the subject ) :

Materialism has been, once again, dominating in all sciences and elsewhere ,
Quote
including in the so-called human sciences , including in anthropology , history writing , sociology , evolutionary psychology, economy, political science , including in religions ' comparisons studies , including in philosophy  ...including even in art and literature .

Secular materialist establishment that 's been the undisputed dominating cultural social scientific ....supreme and ultimate authority ,that had replaced that of the medieval church and christianity ,  thanks to the Eurocentric "enlightenment " movement ...

Biology as the 'science of life " also reduces life to just physics and chemistry thus , thanks to materialism or physicalism as some like to put it , including all the physical sciences ...

Science and most scientists have been wrong in assuming that reality as a whole is just material physical  =(= a materialist false belief assumption , false conception of nature ) , thanks to materialism thus , so, everything , including human consciousness,human free will, the human mind or reason,  life in general  (including its origins evolution and emergence ) , human reason , feelings , emotions ....human love,consciousness in general,  ....have been reduced to just material biological physical processes , via some neuronal machine-like ,computer -like computational magical mechanisms , emergent property magical tricks regarding consciousness ...

So, logically , science would consider all non-materialist beliefs for that matter , all of the immaterial side of reality , all of the immaterial side of life , ....as just products of physics and chemistry ,including consciousness, human reason , human love ... or as just illusions , delusions ...

" The scientific world view " is therefore materialist = rejects and excludes a-priori any non-materialist world views or non-material phenomena , including the non-physical and non-material non-biological side of reality as a whole .

Get that ?

Bye

Who is the "secular materialist establishment?" Who is their leader and high ranking officials? Where are their offices located?

Don't be silly , sis , you're not even funny .
This is yet another Pandora's box or boxes you have been trying to "open " , not in the ancient Greek 'evil " mythical negative sense , but in the positive factual sense : boxes inside of boxes inside of boxes ....inside of the main Pandora's box that contains them all  , the latter that metaphorically represents the materialist belief core assumption = reality as a whole is just physical material , so , there is no so-called higher power , no life after death , ...
Try to find out about the history ,roots ,genesis and secular nature of the Eurocentric 'enlightenment ", and how the secular materialist establishment has been the supreme ultimate authority at all levels ,that had replaced that of christianity , as the nation-state concept did replace that of the church ....

The materialist mainstream scientific establishment or community  have also become some sort of sacred or holy scientific priesthood whose authority ,prestige ,  truths and objectivity ...are unquestionable = the materialist dogmatic belief system dominating in all sciences ...has been unquestionable and undisputable for so long now ,that it has been taken for granted as ...science .

So, every scientist or thinker such as Nagel or Sheldrake, among many other whistleblowers , who would dare to question the mainstream materialist ultimate authority in science and elsewhere , who would dare to question the ultimate authority of the materialist mainstream "scientific church " would be branded as a pseudo-scientist , a retrograde , a lunatic or worse .

Proof regarding the   fact that the secular materialist  establishment has been the ultimate unquestionable authority  ? :  the materialist secular dogmatic belief assumptions that have been dominating in all sciences , in all human sciences ,and elsewhere , including at the cultural economic political social ethical ...and global levels .
See also the so-called rational secular  materialist versions of the  liberal ethics dominating worldwide today : Kantian, contractarianist , utilitarianist .
See the global domination of the materialistic capitalism, of the materialistic ethics of the market ....worldwide.
See secular democracy as the one and only "superior and valid " form of culture or form of government ...

...............The list of all those boxes contained in Pandora's box, the latter as a metaphor for materialism , is endless .

Quote
Don, you're attacking an enemy that doesn't exist. You are opposing an argument that scientists don't make.

It's an undeniable and an obvious fact that all sciences and the rest have been dominated by the materialist core belief assumption regarding the materialist version of the nature of reality as a whole = reality as a whole is just material physical , and therefore all sciences and the rest have been assuming that reality as a whole is just material physical, thanks to materialism thus .

And i  do have no enemies , not in the conventional sense at least ,  i do not divide the world into friends and foes or enemies , i do reject the conventional concept  or notion of "enemy ":  i just deal with people, currents of thought or beliefs in general, with cultures ...so to speak, just in terms of their intrinsic relative truthfulness  and relative falsehood, simply because all people , all peoples, all nations, all cultures , all beliefs , all currents of thought, all societies  ...do have some elements of the truth intrinsically contained in them all , relatively speaking , but they are not all necessarily true , as all nations , all beliefs , all cultures , all currents of thought , all peoples, all societies  ...do intrinsically all contain " the highest and the lowest which are  in each one of us " , as the poet said : " ...But i say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you , so, the wicked and the weak cannot fall below the lowest which is in you also ..."= all sciences , beliefs ,  currents of thought , people , peoples , cultures , societies , nations ....are relative degrees of reflections of the highest and of the lowest  which are  in each one of us ..., even science  itself  , for example , is just a human activity ...= a relative reflection of all "the highest and of all the lowest which are in each one of us " , relatively speaking then = objectivity is a myth , even in science thus: proof ? = materialism in all sciences and elsewhere that has been taken for granted as science , for so long now  .

I am just trying to make you, folks, realise the fact that materialism is no science, and that science has been dominated by the materialist dogmatic belief system (see how the materialist meta-paradigm has been dominating in all sciences and elsewhere  , once again ), for so long now , science has to be liberated from , in order for science to be less dogmatic and more scientific, in order for science to progress ...
.
Quote
I've never read a neurology experiment that ended with "oh, and by the way, the mind doesn't exist and you are all souless automatrons."

"the mind is in the brain , or that the mind is just a product of the brain's neuro-chemical activity " ,for example , is just a materialist belief assumption, no scientific one= just an extension of the core materialist belief assumption regarding the nature of reality as a whole thus  , and yet it is taken for granted as science = free will is an illusion , consciousness might also be an illusion as a result ...logically , according to materialism at least thus , according to materialism in science thus, according to materialism in neurology thus also ...
Materialist belief assumptions that try to explain even the mind just in terms of physics and chemistry ,or just in terms of those materialist macroscopic extensions on the subject such as the materialist magical 'emergence " performance trick regarding the nature or origins of human consciousness , such as that machine -like , computer -like comuptation analogy regarding the nature and origins of the human mind or intellect ...., since "the whole reality is just material or physical " , as materialism assumes it to be at least .

Quote
I've never seen a physics experiment refuting the existence of God.

Try to read Stephen Hawking's "A brief history of time " where he suggests ,as all the mainstream materialists scientists do , that physicists can come up with some kindda "theory of everything = theory of nothing " that would be able to explain everything  just  in mathematical physical chemical terms :
The so-called "scientific world view " is thus = all reality , everything thus ,is material physical , so, there is no immaterial "being " such as God , no immaterial side of reality ...and therefore are religious beliefs just elaborate "creations of the brain , since the mind is in the brain " , just illusions , delusions, fairy tales ...= even God is just an elaborate "creation of the mind that's in the physical brain " = an illusion .

I am not trying to attack materialism, as you put it at least , just because it does , per definition , only lead to atheism and reductionism , i am not trying to refute materialism , just because it denies, per definition, the existence of God ....no, i am doing just that , just in order to make you , folks, realise the simple and obvious undeniable fact that materialism that pretends to be 'scientific " is no science ,that's all = my main motivation is not religious thus = my main motivation is to find out about the truth , whatever that might be indeed , that would sound like a cliche to you , but that's how i see things .

Quote
I've never read a sociology paper titled "The Non-existence of Love."

Sociology and the rest do refute, or rather deny ,  the existence of the human free will,for example , as   a result of their exclusively material physical approach of societies , as a result of their materialistic approaches in relation to societies  ....they just try to explain society in terms of material physical factors , in the form of social material physical and conceptual interactions , in terms of material physical conflicts of interests , in terms of materialistic evolutionary explanations ...in terms of power  "mechanisms " , ....

Sociology even denies the existence of such a 'thing " such as the human nature ...

If "the whole reality is just physical material ", then is even human love just a matter of ...chemistry = just a survival strategy = just an elaborate illusion ...according to materialism thus, love that might be considered just for its social individual and collective utility , in the form of social solidarity ...in the form of social cohesion ...in the form of social stability ....in the form of social safety  ...in the form of social unity , in the form of nationalism, patriotism, in the form of economic growth  ....= love is good for all kindda businesses and growth , solidarity , unity ...patriotism ...love is good for all kindda identities ....for self-worth , for nations ' worth ......love as an utilitarianist  materialistic concept = good for individual and collective survivals , all forms of romantic love are  .

Quote
I've never seen a biology experiment that said "In conclusion, when you die, you rot in the ground and there is no afterlife."

Biology assumes also, thanks to materialism, that life itself is just material physical = can be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry biochemistry (see the so-called scientific origins of life that pretend to be able to explain the origins of life just in terms of physics and chemistry alone, not to mention the materialist version of the evolution of life ... ) , so, when the physical body dies , the physical body or physical material  organism  that's all what there is to life  , when the physical body or physical organism dies , that's the end of the story for that organism , its 'consciousness , memory , mind ...that are just neuro-chemical products of the physical brain " die with it , logically ...= there is no after -life , obviously , according to materialism thus .

Quote
Although, there was research done by a religious institution claiming that black holes fulfill all the technical requirements to be the location of Hell.  (Jack  and Van Impe, 2001.) Religious nuts don't have a problem stretching science's "jurisdiction" when it suits them.

Religion does not belong in science , as materialism does not also :
All beliefs for that matter , either the secular or the religious ones , including materialism thus , must be kept outside of science, and outsde of science's jurisdiction as well  .
But , fact is : human beliefs are unavoidable in science , simply because the latter is practiced by scientists humans , so, materialism in science will just be replaced by another conception of nature ,the latter that will be dominating science for some certain time to come , untill it will be proven to be false maybe , in its turn , who knows = the human will to believe is inexhaustible , as atheist Nagel said .

Neither the materialist reductionist naturalist conception of nature in science , nor the proposed alternative to  it  as proposed by Nagel = the non-reductionist naturalist one , neither one of them is  true , i think that's why Nagel also said the following :

Quote : " I am talking about something much deeperónamely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believersÖ. It isnít just that I donít believe in God and, naturally, hope that Iím right in my belief. Itís that I hope there is no God! I donít want there to be a God; I donít want the universe to be like that." End quote.

I remember myself thinking the same way as Nagel did here above ,when i first started to become aware or self-aware ,during my early teen-age time :
Is God all there is to this universe ? i thought : i do not want the universe to be like that , i do not want there to be a God ...i thought , but , i have outgrown that silly childish egocentric emotional "state of mind " , a long time ago .

.

« Last Edit: 04/11/2013 18:34:21 by DonQuichotte »

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #737 on: 04/11/2013 22:10:35 »
1) You won't or can't address the glaring contradiction in your argument: that science must be "liberated" from materialism so it can be free to investigate or obtain information about the immaterial, which you've already said it cannot do. So what is the benefit of this "liberation?"

2) There is no materialist conspiracy. First off, your history of the relationship between the Catholic church and scientists is factually inaccurate. They were generally in opposition. Secondly, the fact that scientific discoveries were about material processes is not proof that people were prevented by some social force from attempting any other kind of investigation. Chemists doing chemistry experiments will probably derive theories involving chemistry (ideas about molecules and atoms.) Physicists doing physics experiments will also come to conclusions having to do with physics. They are unlikely to spontaneously generate theories or conclusions about the immaterial things which have nothing to do with their own research. Science is not dominated by materialism, in the sense that it is being coerced by some authority to be that way. Scientific knowledge simply contains more information about the material world because that is what individual scientists chose to observe and measure, because that is what they can observe and measure, not because somebody forced them to or censored them.
« Last Edit: 04/11/2013 22:45:00 by cheryl j »

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #738 on: 04/11/2013 22:33:21 »
Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #739 on: 05/11/2013 17:14:25 »
Quote
Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.

Just be serious , come on :

Not everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , and science is not restricted to the material realm , science is rather restricted to all what it can observe , test  ...empirically : see how even telepathy is studied scientifically by Sheldrake, for example .

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #740 on: 05/11/2013 17:32:38 »
Quote
Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.

Just be serious , come on :
Just answer the question, come on.

Quote
... see how even telepathy is studied scientifically by Sheldrake, for example .
Yeah, right. Whatever happened to the telepathy revolution...?

Maybe he's still looking for a way to distinguish between telepathy, clairvoyance, and remote viewing (etc.), or maybe the communication companies have bought him off, or are suppressing his work; but on the other hand, with no credible replications, maybe he's just chasing the magic butterfly of his imagination down the corridors of pseudoscience with a butterfly net of leaky protocols and flaky analysis ;)

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #741 on: 05/11/2013 17:42:25 »
1) You won't or can't address the glaring contradiction in your argument: that science must be "liberated" from materialism so it can be free to investigate or obtain information about the immaterial, which you've already said it cannot do. So what is the benefit of this "liberation?"

I used to make a mistake when i used to say that science can deal only with the material (I see i was also a relative victim of materialism in science thus ) , science can rather deal with all it can observe, test , study ...empirically + not everything can be explained just via the laws of physics , not everything is just a matter of cause and effect thus , as mechanistic materialism  assumes (Major examples ? : science cannot handle the nature or origins of consciousness,of  human intellect ,of  feelings ,of  emotions , of memory ....science cannot handle the nature and origin of human conscience , science cannot explain life as a whole just via physics and chemistry , let alone life's origins , evolution and emergence ...fully) .
See how Sheldrake has been studying telepathy, for example, scientifically .

Quote
2) There is no materialist conspiracy

Who said there is one ?

Quote
. First off, your history of the relationship between the Catholic church and scientists is factually inaccurate
.

What do you mean exactly ?
The medieval church used to be against science , wasn't it ?
The medieval church that used to see itself as the one and only undisputed ultimate authority : anyone who used to challenge it , used to face dire consequences ,as you know  .
The medieval church used to plant the seeds of its own decline , and those of the rise or birth of mechanistic materialism thus as a result .

 
Quote
They were generally in opposition

Scientists were , yes ? indeed ,so .

Quote
. Secondly, the fact that scientific discoveries were about material processes is not proof that people were prevented by some social force from attempting any other kind of investigation.

I was just talking about the secular materialist establishment as the newly born ultimate authority that had replaced christianity ,metaphorically speaking ,  as the concept of the nation-state had replaced that of the church : the secular materialist establishment as the new then undisputed ultimate authority whose main 'ally " was / has been science , when science became materialistic mechanistic , thanks to materialism thus .

Quote
Chemists doing chemistry experiments will probably derive theories involving chemistry (ideas about molecules and atoms.) Physicists doing physics experiments will also come to conclusions having to do with physics. They are unlikely to spontaneously generate theories or conclusions about the immaterial things which have nothing to do with their own research. Science is not dominated by materialism, in the sense that it is being coerced by some authority to be that way. Scientific knowledge simply contains more information about the material world because that is what individual scientists chose to observe and measure, because that is what they can observe and measure, not because somebody forced them to or censored them.

Wrong :
Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism  = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have  "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....
While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically .

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #742 on: 05/11/2013 18:04:39 »
Quote
Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.

Just be serious , come on :
Just answer the question, come on.
Be serious, ok ?
Well, when science will cease to "see " everything as being just material physical through just the key hole of materialism ,while pretending that all what it can see through that materialist mechanistic key hole is all what there is to reality , then  science will realise the fact that there is more to reality than just that it has been confined to , science that tries to understand and explain reality thus .
Science will be then put  on a new  path that might lead to new  unimaginable  discoveries as a result : do you want me to draw you a pic ?

Science has been just deluded into "thinking " , thanks to materialism thus , that the material physical side of reality is all what there is to reality = a distortion of reality .

When science will be liberated from materialism, then science will be able to "see " or rather try to approach the whole pic of reality or rather  science will be able to approach the parts of the whole pic of reality it  can deal with empirically , instead of confining itself to just the material physical side of reality , science has been taking for the whole real thing = the scope realm , jurisdiction and reach of science will be then extended exponentially ,relatively speaking then, while there are some significant parts of reality as a whole that will remain beyond both science's realm and beyond science's jurisdiction as well thus  .

Quote
... see how even telepathy is studied scientifically by Sheldrake, for example
Quote
.
Yeah, right. Whatever happened to the telepathy revolution...?

Maybe he's still looking for a way to distinguish between telepathy, clairvoyance, and remote viewing (etc.), or maybe the communication companies have bought him off, or are suppressing his work; but on the other hand, with no credible replications, maybe he's just chasing the magic butterfly of his imagination down the corridors of pseudoscience with a butterfly net of leaky protocols and flaky analysis ;)

Did you take a close look at Sheldrake's scientific work on the subject ? Guess not : go back and check his evidence , and then we can talk when you would come back .

Sheldrake has been dealing with both telepathy and his morphic resonance theory scientifically , relatively speaking , he has been practicing science as scientists should do whe science would be liberated from materialism : that's 1 of the major reasons why most scientists , including yourself , has been considering his work as being a form of pseudo-science , while it is in fact the other way around : materialism in science is pseudo-science , Sheldrake has just been demolishing those materialist dogmatic orthodox beliefs idols in science that has been taken for granted as science by the materialist mainstream scientific priesthood and their followers  .

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #743 on: 05/11/2013 19:06:16 »
... when science will cease to "see " everything as being just material physical through just the key hole of materialism ,while pretending that all what it can see through that materialist mechanistic key hole is all what there is to reality , then  science will realise the fact that there is more to reality than just that it has been confined to , science that tries to understand and explain reality thus .
Science will be then put  on a new  path that might lead to new  unimaginable  discoveries as a result : do you want me to draw you a pic ?
I'd rather you answered the questions; but OK, 'draw me a pic' of how science will change when it realises there is more to reality; what will it do differently than it does now?

Quote
When science will be liberated from materialism, ... science will be able to approach the parts of the whole pic of reality it  can deal with empirically , instead of confining itself to just the material physical side of reality
How can it deal empirically with parts of reality that are not material or physical? can you give some examples?

Quote
... there are some significant parts of reality as a whole that will remain beyond both science's realm and beyond science's jurisdiction as well thus  .
So how will science 'deal empirically' with these parts of reality if they're 'beyond both science's realm and beyond science's jurisdiction'?

Quote
Did you take a close look at Sheldrake's scientific work on the subject ? Guess not : go back and check his evidence , and then we can talk when you would come back .
I read Sheldrake's work when it was first published, back in the day. I've followed his progress from creative and innovative ideas man to pseudoscience train wreck. Disappointing or sad, or both, depending how you look at it...

Quote
Sheldrake has been dealing with both telepathy and his morphic resonance theory scientifically , relatively speaking , he has been practicing science as scientists should do whe science would be liberated from materialism : that's 1 of the major reasons why most scientists , including yourself , has been considering his work as being a form of pseudo-science , while it is in fact the other way around : materialism in science is pseudo-science , Sheldrake has just been demolishing those materialist dogmatic orthodox beliefs idols in science that has been taken for granted as science by the materialist mainstream scientific priesthood and their followers  .
None of his telepathy or morphic resonance work has stood up to scrutiny, or been credibly replicated. His ideas were carefully investigated by several groups; nothing was found, and the predictions didn't transpire. Mainstream science shrugged and sailed on, leaving him clinging to the driftwood of his sinking ideas, until he managed to scramble aboard the floating heap of rubbish in the pseudoscience gyre.
« Last Edit: 06/11/2013 12:03:59 by dlorde »

*

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1467
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #744 on: 06/11/2013 00:28:25 »

I used to make a mistake when i used to say that science can deal only with the material (I see i was also a relative victim of materialism in science thus ) , science can rather deal with all it can observe, test , study ...empirically + not everything can be explained just via the laws of physics , not everything is just a matter of cause and effect thus , as mechanistic materialism  assumes (Major examples ? : science cannot handle the nature or origins of consciousness,of  human intellect ,of  feelings ,of  emotions , of memory ....science cannot handle the nature and origin of human conscience , science cannot explain life as a whole just via physics and chemistry , let alone life's origins , evolution and emergence ...fully) .



 
Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism  = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have  "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....
While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically...
....Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism  = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have  "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....
While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically .


So science is responsible for including the immaterial in its conceptual framework of why things happen or how things happen,  but it can't criticize ideas about the immaterial or falsify the immaterial in any way? Are you familiar with the phrase "writing a blank check"?
« Last Edit: 06/11/2013 00:40:41 by cheryl j »

*

Offline SimpleEngineer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 117
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #745 on: 06/11/2013 14:25:11 »
don gave himself away with this statement

Neither the materialist reductionist naturalist conception of nature in science , nor the proposed alternative to  it  as proposed by Nagel = the non-reductionist naturalist one , neither one of them is  true , i think that's why Nagel also said the following :

Quote : " I am talking about something much deeperónamely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believersÖ. It isnít just that I donít believe in God and, naturally, hope that Iím right in my belief. Itís that I hope there is no God! I donít want there to be a God; I donít want the universe to be like that." End quote.

I remember myself thinking the same way as Nagel did here above ,when i first started to become aware or self-aware ,during my early teen-age time :
Is God all there is to this universe ? i thought : i do not want the universe to be like that , i do not want there to be a God ...i thought , but , i have outgrown that silly childish egocentric emotional "state of mind " , a long time ago .


HE does not want the universe to be materialistic, HE does not want everything to come down to chemistry and physics.

So these discussions he has been prompting is all about him rejecting the premise of science and wishes that it would stop finding out how the world works just in case it finds out it works in a way that he (DonQ) does not agree with.

However I like the quote from Nagel, I personally despise atheists who argue with religious groups about the existence of god, saying there is no proof he exists.. as they forget to close the factual statement of.. There is also no proof that he doesn't the religion of atheism is founded on hypocritical beliefs and statements.. As are DonQ's regular posts.

*

Offline David Cooper

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1505
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #746 on: 06/11/2013 16:17:38 »
The proof that God doesn't exist does exist. It is impossible for him to qualify as God. If he understands how he works, he has no magic left and reveals himself to be a natural being like ourselves. If he continues to run on magic which he doesn't understand, he falls far short of being God. He can't win.

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #747 on: 06/11/2013 17:56:25 »
The proof that God doesn't exist does exist. It is impossible for him to qualify as God. If he understands how he works, he has no magic left and reveals himself to be a natural being like ourselves. If he continues to run on magic which he doesn't understand, he falls far short of being God. He can't win.

We are not talking here about God .

Well, just for discussion's sake , the following then :

God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ; thousands of years of ancient philosophy , scholastics , modern philosophy ...should have convinced you already of that fact : trying to prove or disprove the existence of God was just a stupid and silly ancient Greek cultural habit that was taken over by christian scholastics , and by modern philosophy ,later on ...

Materialism , for example , is inherently an atheist reductionist and determinist world view or conception of nature , no wonder that materialism reduces the whole reality as asuch to just material physical processes : if reality is just material physical, there is logically no God, no after-life , no transcendent reality ....= how convenient : since when are beliefs , any beliefs for that matter , either the secular or the religious ones , including materialism thus , since when are beliefs some sort of evidence  ? = beliefs are no evidence = materialism as a secular belief or a secular religion is no evidence against the existence of God , obviously .
Materialism is just an atheist reductionist determinist mechanical "state of mind or mindset , attitude " , a false conception of nature at that , obviously  also , so = irrelevant .

 


*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #748 on: 06/11/2013 18:06:02 »
... I like the quote from Nagel, I personally despise atheists who argue with religious groups about the existence of god, saying there is no proof he exists.. as they forget to close the factual statement of.. There is also no proof that he doesn't
True - although some ideas are so patently absurd they need convincing evidence of their reality to be credible, e.g. Russell's Teapot, Sagan's invisible dragon, the Tooth Fairy, God, etc. As the man said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Quote
the religion of atheism is founded on hypocritical beliefs and statements..
Someone said 'atheism is a religion the way not collecting stamps is a hobby'. As an atheist myself, I'm not aware of having any religious-type organized beliefs, dogmas, rituals or activities. Despite a religious upbringing, I don't believe in god because it seems an absurd, contradictory, ill-defined idea, there's no plausible evidence for it, and a vast amount of circumstantial evidence that it's a product of human imagination. YMMV. If some plausible evidence appears, I'll consider it.

*

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #749 on: 06/11/2013 18:44:17 »
... I like the quote from Nagel, I personally despise atheists who argue with religious groups about the existence of god, saying there is no proof he exists.. as they forget to close the factual statement of.. There is also no proof that he doesn't
True - although some ideas are so patently absurd they need convincing evidence of their reality to be credible, e.g. Russell's Teapot, Sagan's invisible dragon, the Tooth Fairy, God, etc. As the man said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

(Once again, history of mankind's thought had proved the obvious simple and undeniable fact that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ,so, let's just leave it at that then , and that's not our subject either )

Well, materialism is so absurd , so paradoxical, so counter-intuitive, or implausible as Nagel said , so ridiculous , so silly , so childish a "scientific world view " that it is extremely puzzling that materialism has been taken seriously at all , let alone in science : extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence indeed , ironically enough .

Now that you cannot deliver any evidence for the "validity or truth " concerning the materialist mainstream "scientific world view ", that's obviously false , you just resort to attacking non-materialist world views such as religions, we are not talking here about the latter , we are just talking about materialism in science that's obviously false , and nobody said that religions are 'scientific " , as materialism pretends to be : that's the core issue here , if materialism has not been taken for granted as the alleged scientific world view  for so long now  , i would have never bothered raising the irrelevant silly issue of materialism = materialism that assumes that reality as a whole is just material physical  , well  , ironically enough , Nagel said on the subject  of materialism "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"= where is that extraordinary materialist evidence then ? where is that extraprdinary evidence regarding the extraordianry claims of materialism that reality is just material physical then ?

All that Russell's tea pot and the rest of your "arguments " against religion are not only incorrect and false irrelevant in relation to some religions at least  they cannot cover as such  , but they  also miss the point that there are false and true beliefs ,relatively speaking : the belief in Sint Claus is obviously false , my own belief in my mother is obviously true to me at least .......to mention just that , no need to scale it up all the way to religions .

Quote
Quote
the religion of atheism is founded on hypocritical beliefs and statements..
Someone said 'atheism is a religion the way not collecting stamps is a hobby'. As an atheist myself, I'm not aware of having any religious-type organized beliefs, dogmas, rituals or activities. Despite a religious upbringing, I don't believe in god because it seems an absurd, contradictory, ill-defined idea, there's no plausible evidence for it, and a vast amount of circumstantial evidence that it's a product of human imagination. YMMV. If some plausible evidence appears, I'll consider it.

Atheism is obviously a belief , a religion, a conception of nature , a naturalist one at that , a dogmatic orthodox one at that , even in the face of counter-evidence : major example ? materialism in all sciences and elsewhere .

Deliver your  extraordinary evidence regarding the extraordinary claims of the naturalist materialist reductionist determinist conception of nature then ,that gets sold to the people as the 'scientific world view " , deal ?

Besides, you cannot prove the falsehood or truthfulness of a certain belief or religion just via another belief assumption , the materialist one here ,come on : how convenient =   I say your materialist belief is false , and i did provide you with extensive supporting material and other on the subject , what do you do ? You just resort to saying : my materialist belief is better than yours = what kindda silly childish 'reasoning " is this then ? Amazing .
Just address the issue of the false materialist "scientific world view " at hand : religions are not the ones that pretend to be "the scientific world views " , deal ?
« Last Edit: 06/11/2013 18:47:48 by DonQuichotte »