The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Non Life Sciences
  3. Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology
  4. Is infinity a misconception?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10]   Go Down

Is infinity a misconception?

  • 190 Replies
  • 104742 Views
  • 0 Tags

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline dlorde

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1454
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 14 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #180 on: 29/10/2014 14:48:00 »
Quote from: JohnDuffield on 29/10/2014 14:06:59
Interesting. But I didn't understand why space had to be expanding into another medium. Space is the medium. How can there be some other medium? Does not parse. 
Yes, that puzzled me too.
Logged
 



Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 81572
  • Activity:
    100%
  • Thanked: 178 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #181 on: 31/10/2014 19:48:38 »
Nah, or just maybe?
If you look at the universe as a equilibrium you can pick two choices, a dynamically changing equilibrium, or a static. If we now give a constant to a dynamically changing universe, will it not still be a constant? Assuming the universe have a constant balance.

the third assumption is one in where you have dynamically changing universe in where there can't be constants. But that is not what we see. So I think that link is wrong, if it assume "that Planck's constant is not a pure constant at all but a cosmological variable, a point for which some supported was reported in 2013 by Seshavatharam and Lakshminarayana."

My own outlook is that constants are here to stay, they are what define this universe.
Logged
URGENT:  Naked Scientists website is under threat.    https://www.thenakedscientists.com/sos-cambridge-university-killing-dr-chris

"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."
 

Offline phyti39

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 51
  • Activity:
    0%
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #182 on: 31/10/2014 20:00:00 »
Quote from: Bill S on 28/10/2014 21:42:46

Quote
Universe (Latin) and cosmos (Greek) are interchangeable

Originally, I would agree, but I think the meanings have to some extent evolved.  See #116 in this thread.
Quote
#116
I think this might be less confusing if John Gribbin’s usage were followed:

Cosmos = everything that exists, or can exist.
Universe = our (in principle) observable portion of spacetime and its contents.
universe = any other universe that may, or may not, exist.
This looks more like semantics than science.
We can’t have complete knowledge of definition 1.
The observable universe and the perceptual universe (spacetime) are contained in def.1.
Definition 3 is redundant and meaningless.
The intended purpose of noting one Latin and the other Greek is to show they are different cultural variations for the same entity, all that is known to exist.

Logged
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 3743
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 531 times
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #183 on: 06/11/2014 22:33:50 »
I had originally posted this as a reply on another thread, but it probably belongs in this one:

"If the universe is actually globally homogeneous and isotropic, that means that each point is equivalent to every other point within the universe. This type of symmetry can easily be attained by a sphere, in which any point can be transformed into any other point by a simple rotation of the sphere. If we accept that the universe is flat, it cannot be spherical. A flat plane can also satisfy these conditions (homogeneous and isotropic), but only if it is infinite--in this case any point can be transformed into any other point by translation.

As a chemist, though, I have to point out that this is analogous to our theoretical models of crystals. There are 219 (or 230) space groups--the types of symmetry a crystal structure can have. In each there is an assumption that the entire crystal can be translated in one direction or another to line up with itself again. These models are extremely accurate in their predictions of the properties of all types of crystals. However, the models assume an infinite crystal lattice, which we know is not an accurate depiction of any crystal ever observed/characterized (most of those studied are less than 1mm on a side, >1000000 atoms across, though there are single crystals as large as a meter on a side, and possible even larger). It also turns out that while the models work very well at predicting what goes on inside a crystal, they are very poor models of the boundaries of crystals, which we invoke other models for.

My point is, from the viewpoint of an atom near the center of a crystal, the whole universe is an infinite perfect crystal--the model works perfectly as far as the atom can "see" and beyond. But eventually there is a boundary that is completely inexplicable given a perfect crystal model.

The observable universe appears to be flat, homogeneous and isotropic. But in my opinion, there could very well be inhomogeneity, anisotropy or curvature beyond our observable bubble."
Logged
 

Offline Bill S

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3630
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 114 times
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #184 on: 06/11/2014 22:52:12 »
Quote from: ChiralSPO
My point is, from the viewpoint of an atom near the center of a crystal, the whole universe is an infinite perfect crystal--the model works perfectly as far as the atom can "see" and beyond. But eventually there is a boundary that is completely inexplicable given a perfect crystal model.

The observable universe appears to be flat, homogeneous and isotropic. But in my opinion, there could very well be inhomogeneity, anisotropy or curvature beyond our observable bubble."

Interesting point.  We are assured that cosmology would be unworkable without these assumptions, so I suppose it is reasonable to make them, and work with them.  Perhaps trouble comes only when peoples forget that they are assumptions and start treating them as if they were established facts.   
Logged
There never was nothing.
 



Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21159
  • Activity:
    67%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #185 on: 07/11/2014 07:32:11 »
Quote from: phyti39 on 31/10/2014 20:00:00

Quote

Cosmos = everything that exists, or can exist.
Universe = our (in principle) observable portion of spacetime and its contents.
universe = any other universe that may, or may not, exist.
Definition 3 is redundant and meaningless.

Not at all. 1 is the set of all sets, 2 is the finite set bounded by  the Schwarzchild limit, 3 is (1 - 2).
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline allan marsh

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 91
  • Activity:
    0%
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #186 on: 07/11/2014 22:10:05 »
If there is zero then there must inevitably be infinity
It took the Romans and those with runic tools to produce zero
Now it is 2014 and infinity is real
Logged
A man that knows he is right is almost sure to be wrong.....etc.  Michael faraday 1819
 

Offline Bill S

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3630
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 114 times
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #187 on: 07/11/2014 23:18:03 »
Quote from: Allan
If there is zero then there must inevitably be infinity

I'm not sure that I follow the logic of that.
Logged
There never was nothing.
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 3743
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 531 times
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #188 on: 07/11/2014 23:42:59 »
I agree. Zero (absolute zeros) and infinity go hand in hand.
Logged
 



Offline Ethos_

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1332
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 18 times
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #189 on: 08/11/2014 00:46:14 »
Quote from: chiralSPO on 07/11/2014 23:42:59
I agree. Zero (absolute zeros) and infinity go hand in hand.
I agree as well.........................And backtracking to earlier posts about nothingness, what else is nothingness but Zero? When one visualizes the "Universe" as finite, then that "nothingness" which lies beyond being nothingness is also part of the "Cosmos". Where the "Universe" is finite, the "Cosmos" is infinite.
Logged
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21159
  • Activity:
    67%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: Is infinity a misconception?
« Reply #190 on: 08/11/2014 12:05:19 »
It's true that zero and infinity are associated, since 1/x→∞ as x→0.

But I don't think the Romans had a useful concept of zero. This seems to have arrived from India via Arabic mathematicians, who had a symbol for zero, that is lacking in Roman numerals.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



  • Print
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10]   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags:
 
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 1.371 seconds with 51 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.