[PmbPhy]

Ah yes - which way round would they display the images if they don't actually come here to see how we display them? Well, it would be a real problem if our communication link was going through something equivalent to a wormhole but into a different universe, but if the aliens are in our universe we could show them pictures of large objects like galaxy clusters which they could use to determine which way round the images should be displayed.

Why would showing them such pictures objects help? Are you suggesting that we send them pictures of objects that we see and they also see and we both therefore have the same object to refer to?

That's true, but you're now exploring a special area based on human emotions/feelings.

No. I'm trying to illustrate that you can't simply translate words and think you're able to communicate with an alien species. That requires having a great deal in common. I'm sure you know that there are words or phrases in other languages which have no translation to the English language, right?

I don't think a visiting alien would want to marry anything it found here -

I never suggested any such thing. I'm trying to explain that there are things which can't be translated. In this case it's even hard for humans to explain what makes something the way it is. I used physical appearance as an example but it should never have been taken to mean that it has anything to do with the actual problem of communicating with aliens. I was illustrating the problem that there may not be things that can be described to an alien species.

I think any evolved intelligence ...

I don't know what you mean by "involved" here. Please clarify. I hope you don't mean that we're assuming that an alien species that we contact must be more intelligent than we are? I see no reason for that to be true. The only thing I see being necessary is that they have more knowledge about interstellar travel than we do. Who knows? Perhaps we'll have that knowledge in 300 years. But in 300 years we'll still be humans. There is unlikely to be any advancement in human evolution in that amount of time so we won't be more intelligent as a species. Are scientists will just be more knowledgeable.

...they will be further forced to conform with the kind of universal thinking that is required by machines where feelings don't override reason.

I have no idea what that means.

It would be more than possible - this process would not involve us or the alien species so we would not slow it down at all. Everything would be done by two intelligent machines exchanging images, video and sound in order to swap dictionaries of words while mapping them to meanings.

That implies we have such computers and we don't. Even if we did then I don't believe that there exist knowledge that is required to, say, translate a language that we've never seen before. Today there are dead languages that will never be translated.

[alancalverd]

Ah yes - which way round would they display the images if they don't actually come here to see how we display them?

That's actually the easy bit. If you transmit a series of n x m binary bits whe n and m are prime, there are only two ways of mapping them into a 2-D frame, and the wrong way will have considerably more spatial noise since it will chop up contiguous objects. Any being with the wit and technology to receive and display the signal will have discovered prime numbers, mapping, and frequency spectrum analysis. 

You can be really clever and transmit n x m x l bits, from which your alien could eventually make a 3D printer model once he has sorted out his maximum entropy reconstruction algorithm.     

[JohnDuffield]

What of the chances of finding intelligent life...

IMHO that's the wrong question, and the right question is this:

What are the chances that intelligent life has already found us?

[David Cooper]

Why would showing them such pictures objects help? Are you suggesting that we send them pictures of objects that we see and they also see and we both therefore have the same object to refer to?

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. We could show them a diagram of the structure of the visible universe as it looks to us when we look in their direction, and they would be able to see that it's done from our perspective rather than from theirs, making it dead easy for them to tell what "left" and "right" mean to us.

That's true, but you're now exploring a special area based on human emotions/feelings.

No. I'm trying to illustrate that you can't simply translate words and think you're able to communicate with an alien species. That requires having a great deal in common. I'm sure you know that there are words or phrases in other languages which have no translation to the English language, right?

There are different ways of expressing things, but they can always be expressed in more fundamental ways which eliminate the confusion. When you make your language accessible to aliens, you will automatically begin by using the clearest, most logical ways of expressing things rather than starting with confusing idiomatic expressions. There is nothing in any human language that can't be translated into another language - it may require a lot of explanation to do so, but it is far from impossible, and the amount of difficulty a word generates (in terms of how economically it can be translated) is inversely proportional to its importance.

I'm trying to explain that there are things which can't be translated. In this case it's even hard for humans to explain what makes something the way it is. I used physical appearance as an example but it should never have been taken to mean that it has anything to do with the actual problem of communicating with aliens. I was illustrating the problem that there may not be things that can be described to an alien species.

But the only difficulty there is with explaining beauty, and that's where we get into areas involving feelings. Even then, we can explain a lot about why we find some people beautiful and others ugly, so it isn't an area beyond all understanding. If the aliens have any kind of feelings at all, they can use that to guide their understanding. A distorted face makes us feel bad while a neat face makes us happy. Symmetry has an important role in this, but it is not the whole story. The golden ratio also has a role. Aliens would be able to understand that fine.

I think any evolved intelligence ...

I don't know what you mean by "involved" here. Please clarify. I hope you don't mean that we're assuming that an alien species that we contact must be more intelligent than we are? I see no reason for that to be true.

"Evolved intelligence" - what I mean by this is intelligence that came about through evolution as opposed to designed machine intelligence like AGI. Simple evolved intelligence can be quite unintelligent, but it may be good enough to work in a simple creature. As it evolves greater intelligence and becomes a universal problem solver like us, it has to conform to the rules of reasoning which enable correct thinking, so it ends up thinking in the same way as any other evolved intelligence regardless of the route it took to get there. With AGI, we miss out all the evolution and go straight for a machine which applies the rules of reason, but we are practically there already with our own minds as the pathway to high intelligence forces all species to conform if they are to become universal problem solvers.

...they will be further forced to conform with the kind of universal thinking that is required by machines where feelings don't override reason.

I have no idea what that means.

If you are programming proper artificial intelligence, you want it to produce correct answers for everything it thinks about, so you set it thinking using correct reasoning rather than programming it to think in a shoddy way like a human. Humans come close to thinking the right way, but they let their prejudices override reason as their feelings dominate, so they find it difficult to reason in a pure way. By creating AGI, we will drive everyone to conform to more systematic, reasoned thinking and will end up thinking the same way as any intelligent aliens who have also created AGI.

That implies we have such computers and we don't.

We don't yet, but it isn't far off - if you were to put money on us receiving a communication from aliens before we have this kind of AGI, I think you'd be waving that money goodbye. And they will certainly have it.

Even if we did then I don't believe that there exist knowledge that is required to, say, translate a language that we've never seen before. Today there are dead languages that will never be translated.

There are dead languages which are preserved in writings which we cannot understand yet and which may never be understood, but they are not actively trying to teach us those languages through those texts. If they put little drawings after every new word to give us clues as to what they might mean, we might find it really easy to understand them. When it comes to communications with aliens, we will be actively seeking to make ourselves understood to each other, so it's a totally different kettle of fish.

[David Cooper]

Ah yes - which way round would they display the images if they don't actually come here to see how we display them?

That's actually the easy bit. If you transmit a series of n x m binary bits whe n and m are prime, there are only two ways of mapping them into a 2-D frame, and the wrong way will have considerably more spatial noise since it will chop up contiguous objects. Any being with the wit and technology to receive and display the signal will have discovered prime numbers, mapping, and frequency spectrum analysis.

That's not the issue in question. The issue is how you determine left from right. You can easily get the picture to look correct (even if you don't use prime numbers for height and width), but it may be reversed. It might not matter if it is reversed though, and indeed it's quite possible that different people see the world the other way round from each other - none of us can tell if we see it the way round that it actually is.

[alancalverd]

Gross left and right aren't particularly important to most species, though the chirality of some molecules determines their biological function. Faced with a coronal plane image of a human or a spider, I could probably work out that it was vaguely bilaterally symmetric and had a preferred orientation with respect to gravity. Given three projections and a scale (the hydrogen 21 cm line is likely to be a universal standard of length and time) I could make a fullsize model of it. So it's entirely possible for any life form that can control an electromagnetic technology, to initiate meaningful conversations with another.     

[ScientificSorcerer]

I think that we need to find some aliens before we can learn how to effectively communicate with them.  Which would mean hopping in a space craft to start scouring far off solar systems for signs of life.

In order to do that effectively we would need to go light speed or beyond.  Thinking about how to make cheaper and faster space craft.  (warp drives and stuff like that would be completely necessary)

[yor_on]

Intelligence seems to be the realization of not knowing enough, then start asking questions. If the universe works by emergences, meaning 'jumps' that you don't really can back track to their constituents behavior before this 'emergence', then intelligence should be able to pop up everywhere I think.

[alancalverd]

We recognise intelligence in another animal by its ability to surprise us. It is the antonym of mechanism. So we should be looking for the mechanistically improbable- like the "WOW signal". The difficulty is recognising the difference between a surprising signal and random noise.