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"Spiritual brain ..." is a funny derision of materialism , and shows how it is false , ridiculous , dogmatic , contradictoty paradoxical incoherent , unscientific and much more ,
while offering some alternate scientific explanations to the false materialist ones .
The manifesto for a post-materialistic science is all about the fact that materialist science has been delivering a false , dogmatic and distorted version of nature or reality, a false version of the nature of reality that pretend to be scientific ,thanks to materialism.Science is all about trying to explain the universe or the nature of reality or nature ,so, science must abandon materialism , if science wanna be able to deliver some relatively accurate reflections of representations of reality ."Scientific materialism " is false , so, science has no choice but to become non-materialst , if science doesn't wanna loose its ceredibility and reliability as a valid source of knowledge , otherwise science under materialism would remain just a dogmatic ideology or atheist religion that would remain confined within the false materialist version of reality , despite all scientific advances, discoveries ...that were achieved only through the scientific method by materialist and non-materialist scientists alike .The non-materialist scientists thus are more scientific than the materialist ones could ever be , simply because the former follow what emiprical evidence show to them , and the latter just try to make empirical evidence fit into their a-priori held materialist world view ,or just deny it , ignore it as such ,or just call it pseudo-science or worse whenever that empirical evidence would contradict their a-priori held materialist belief or world view .Science has become a servant or a slave of materialists and materialism , in the sense that science gets misused for the service of the materialist ideology , in order to vindicate it , in vain ,while science should be used to explore the universe through free inquiry .
Prior note : Fact is : you have made many arguments from ignorance (I am well aware of what that means ) , not because you disagreed with me ....., but , simply because you implied that since you were not familiar with or not informed regarding the evidence provided by non-materialist and other scientists , then , there were none , and because of similar replies of yours ....Check that out in your own posts to me ....It's not possible to cover all those fields this way , let alone in detail ,so, that's why i was just referring you all to them through the work of some non-materialist scientists .......I cannot do the whole work for you thus : the evidence is there to take a loot at , some of the evidence that's provided even by some mainstream scientists like Shapiro , Jay Gould and others .It's up to you thus to check out my links and excerpts.Check out the main link of this thread, don't be lazy : I cannot do the whole work for you , once again :
Regarding Stapp's work where he connected Hebb's law ( neurons that fire together connect together ) to what he called the Zeno-effect ( a kindda "glue " that holds the created neural pathways or brain wiring in place through the power of conscious focus .
The latter explains why habits are so difficult to break ,since focussing on them only strengthens their old neural pathways , and explains that focussing away from old habits regularily through excercises , meditation , discipline ... methodologically , away from them on healthier thoughts can create new neural pathways or brain wiring that would override the old neural pathways created by negative habits .... Non-materialist cognitive psychology or therapy is built up on that: i tried it myself , and it does work .
Quote from: cheryl j on 19/10/2014 20:48:09I can't help but wonder, what if some new type of force involving consciousness , or some new form of "stuff" was discovered? What difference would it make?If quantum field theory (the Standard Model) is even a reasonable approximation to the way the world works (and the evidence suggests it is far more than that - particularly now the long-predicted Higgs particle has been found), then such a force doesn't exist, and any 'stuff' would have to be made of familiar material. No unknown forces or particles relevant to everyday human-scale interactions remain to be discovered - there are probably plenty at other scales and strengths, but the fundamentals of our everyday environment are all accounted for (gravity, electromagnetism, electrons, protons, and neutrons). It's a strong claim, but QFT is a strong theory. For the full, exciting, entertaining details, see Sean Carroll's talk The Higgs Boson and the Fundamental Nature of Reality. Skip to 33 minutes for the specific claim (although the whole thing is well worth watching). Please pay close attention to the caveats and limits that Carroll describes.
I can't help but wonder, what if some new type of force involving consciousness , or some new form of "stuff" was discovered? What difference would it make?
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Thanks. Tomorrow is library night and I plan to catch up on some viewing with their wifi. I really wish I had a better understanding of physics.
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg442699#msg442699 date=1413852051]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 20/10/2014 18:25:21Regarding Stapp's work where he connected Hebb's law ( neurons that fire together connect together ) to what he called the Zeno-effect ( a kindda "glue " that holds the created neural pathways or brain wiring in place through the power of conscious focus . You realize that makes absolutely no sense, right? Not even metaphorically.
QuoteThe latter explains why habits are so difficult to break ,since focussing on them only strengthens their old neural pathways , and explains that focussing away from old habits regularily through excercises , meditation , discipline ... methodologically , away from them on healthier thoughts can create new neural pathways or brain wiring that would override the old neural pathways created by negative habits .... Non-materialist cognitive psychology or therapy is built up on that: i tried it myself , and it does work .Why do you think cognitive therapy is non materialist?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 20/10/2014 18:25:21Prior note : Fact is : you have made many arguments from ignorance (I am well aware of what that means ) , not because you disagreed with me ....., but , simply because you implied that since you were not familiar with or not informed regarding the evidence provided by non-materialist and other scientists , then , there were none , and because of similar replies of yours ....Check that out in your own posts to me ....It's not possible to cover all those fields this way , let alone in detail ,so, that's why i was just referring you all to them through the work of some non-materialist scientists .......I cannot do the whole work for you thus : the evidence is there to take a loot at , some of the evidence that's provided even by some mainstream scientists like Shapiro , Jay Gould and others .It's up to you thus to check out my links and excerpts.Check out the main link of this thread, don't be lazy : I cannot do the whole work for you , once again :I am not asking you to “do the work for” me. I am simply suggesting that you provide a link to particular study or two that you feel is most illustrative of the “overwhelming evidence” you keep referring to, and is an example of the kind of non-material influences your theory proposes. You can’t expect in a discussion forum that people have the time or the motivation to read a dozen books and view countless videos It is not “lazy” to request that you reference the most important studies that your ideas are based on. (In fact on another science forum, it’s mandatory after repeated requests, or the thread can be closed.) I do not direct your attention to entire anatomy or neuroscience text books and complain that you are being lazy, narrow minded, or “arguing from ignorance” for not having read them.If nothing else it would give us something new to do beside rehash the same philosophical disagreement, the general trueness and falseness of methodologies, over and over.
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg442693#msg442693 date=1413848542]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 20/10/2014 16:48:29"Spiritual brain ..." is a funny derision of materialism , and shows how it is false , ridiculous , dogmatic , contradictoty paradoxical incoherent , unscientific and much more , See, that is exactly why I think it will likely be a waste of time. I’m less interested in page after paghttp://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/Themes/naksci3/images/bbc/bold.gife of their litany of criticisms about evolution or neuroscience. I want to see what alternative explanations and mechanisms they have, and the evidence that backs it, and I suspect that will be once again sorely lacking and a waste of my time. QuoteSee ? That's exactly what i mean : you don't read me well : I said that that particular work showed how ridiculous , false ...materialism was / is , while offering alternate explanations to the materialist false ones , through evidence . Quotewhile offering some alternate scientific explanations to the false materialist ones . If I check it out at all, that is what I'd be most interested in seeing if only out of curiosity as to how they think they can pull that off. But I'm not hopeful.
QuoteThe manifesto for a post-materialistic science is all about the fact that materialist science has been delivering a false , dogmatic and distorted version of nature or reality, a false version of the nature of reality that pretend to be scientific ,thanks to materialism.Science is all about trying to explain the universe or the nature of reality or nature ,so, science must abandon materialism , if science wanna be able to deliver some relatively accurate reflections of representations of reality ."Scientific materialism " is false , so, science has no choice but to become non-materialst , if science doesn't wanna loose its ceredibility and reliability as a valid source of knowledge , otherwise science under materialism would remain just a dogmatic ideology or atheist religion that would remain confined within the false materialist version of reality , despite all scientific advances, discoveries ...that were achieved only through the scientific method by materialist and non-materialist scientists alike .The non-materialist scientists thus are more scientific than the materialist ones could ever be , simply because the former follow what emiprical evidence show to them , and the latter just try to make empirical evidence fit into their a-priori held materialist world view ,or just deny it , ignore it as such ,or just call it pseudo-science or worse whenever that empirical evidence would contradict their a-priori held materialist belief or world view .Science has become a servant or a slave of materialists and materialism , in the sense that science gets misused for the service of the materialist ideology , in order to vindicate it , in vain ,while science should be used to explore the universe through free inquiry .For the life of me I’ll never understand the benefit you see in attacking all of conventional science based on physical processes, and characterizing it as “false” when clearly it has elucidated the mechanisms behind a vast number of phenomena, in physics, chemistry, biology, botany, medicine, etc and has completely altered the human experience and potential. And although you keep saying this progress in knowledge has nothing to do with materialism, it has had everything to do with it, and the belief that nature was intelligible and could be explained through physical processes without resorting to mystical elements or God.
But fine, if you feel there is "more", or "something else" out there, what’s stopping you or anyone else from discovering it and using the scientific method to explain its workings? A mass conspiracy against such investigations is not tenable.
Cheryl :Just responding to most of the posts here does cost me quite some time and energy (not to mention money as well lol ) , so, how do you expect me to tell you about all the work, models, theories, evidence , data of non-materialist scientists .? You gotta be kidding me .I talked about all that in general terms in my own words , and via links , video links , excerpts of books ....That's all i can do for you , guys ...It's up to you all to check all that out , or otherwise ,so : I can only take you to the fountain .I cannot make you drink from it , not that i necessarily care that you would .Got other things and duties to attend to as well like everybodyelse , so .P.S .: dlorde, alancalverd... :No time left , sorry .Thanks .Cheers.
Quoteauthor=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg442699#msg442699 date=1413852051]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 20/10/2014 18:25:21Regarding Stapp's work where he connected Hebb's law ( neurons that fire together connect together ) to what he called the Zeno-effect ( a kindda "glue " that holds the created neural pathways or brain wiring in place through the power of conscious focus . You realize that makes absolutely no sense, right? Not even metaphorically.That's a bit how neuroplasticity or self-directed neuroplasticity , grosso-modo , work, from the non-materialist neuroscience's perspective that relies on one particular interpretation of quantum theory , in total contrast with the materialist neuroscience that's still stuck within the classical determinist mechanical Newtonian world view . Non-materialist cognitive psychology or therapy rely on the above , and it works .I tried it myself, once again .I can tell . Many other people did try it also with success...Why does it make no sense to you then ? You have admitted to dlorde that you weren't that into physics, for example ? Haven't you ? How can you tell then ?QuoteQuoteThe latter explains why habits are so difficult to break ,since focussing on them only strengthens their old neural pathways , and explains that focussing away from old habits regularily through excercises , meditation , discipline ... methodologically , away from them on healthier thoughts can create new neural pathways or brain wiring that would override the old neural pathways created by negative habits .... Non-materialist cognitive psychology or therapy is built up on that: i tried it myself , and it does work .Why do you think cognitive therapy is non materialist?You should try to read me well, Cheryl : Be serious, please : I said : the non-materialist cognitive therapy .....There is materialist and non-materialist cognitive therapy or spychology ,as there is materialist and non-materialist neuroscience , as there is materialist science and non-materialist science ...Comprende ?
I asked for one solid study as an example of the "over whelming body of evidence" you keep referring to.
Non-materialist scientists were /are and will be doing just that : you're just not aware of their work ,theories, models , data or evidence .
Quote from: cheryl jI asked for one solid study as an example of the "over whelming body of evidence" you keep referring to.Hi Cheryl,I read the first post of this thread and read the first link where it said this: The authors of the manifesto are all scientific mavericks whose viewpoints are not mainstream. There's another name for such mavericks, i.e. crackpots! LOL!!
author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg442690#msg442690 date=1413845324]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 18/10/2014 18:11:40... See also the entanglement phenomena in quantum physics : explain that instantaneous action from huge distances between particles through some material process of yours then ? I thought nothing in the universe can travel faster than the speed of light .Not quite. The rule is that nothing can accelerate to or past the speed of light (in vacuo), and that no information can travel faster than light (in vacuo).
... See also the entanglement phenomena in quantum physics : explain that instantaneous action from huge distances between particles through some material process of yours then ? I thought nothing in the universe can travel faster than the speed of light .
QuoteWhy can't consciousness work through entanglement also , via instantaneous action on "matter" or via minds-minds interactions from a distance then ?Decoherence.
Why can't consciousness work through entanglement also , via instantaneous action on "matter" or via minds-minds interactions from a distance then ?
Quote Do you think that the great physicist and mathematician Von Neumann did detect the role of consciousness in physics through any form of elimination, or direct detection ? He concluded through rigorous maths that the measurement problem in quantum physics could not be solved but by concluding that there must be a process of some sort that collapses the wave function , a process outside of the laws of physics . He could not think of anythingelse than the consciousness of the observer , albeit reluctantly .QuoteIn the 82(!) years since von Neumann's publication, physics has moved on. Wave function collapse is just one of a number of interpretations of QM, and the idea of conscious collapse is now a historical footnote (except for a few fringe woosters, like Stapp).
Do you think that the great physicist and mathematician Von Neumann did detect the role of consciousness in physics through any form of elimination, or direct detection ? He concluded through rigorous maths that the measurement problem in quantum physics could not be solved but by concluding that there must be a process of some sort that collapses the wave function , a process outside of the laws of physics . He could not think of anythingelse than the consciousness of the observer , albeit reluctantly .
In the 82(!) years since von Neumann's publication, physics has moved on. Wave function collapse is just one of a number of interpretations of QM, and the idea of conscious collapse is now a historical footnote (except for a few fringe woosters, like Stapp).