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  4. Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
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Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #720 on: 14/03/2017 22:17:52 »
A thread on a forum wouldn't make a dent.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #721 on: 15/03/2017 20:13:32 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 14/03/2017 22:17:52
A thread on a forum wouldn't make a dent.
It might make just as big a dent as an off topic post in a thread.
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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #722 on: 16/03/2017 12:58:33 »
Famine is caused by politics, war and cli.ate change in that order. It is pointless debating the effects of climate change and what to do about it when it is far less of a problem than the other two. Sorting the divisive issues out will go a long way to resolving all our problems. However human nature flies in the face of resolutions. There are no grown ups in charge.
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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #723 on: 16/03/2017 19:24:47 »
Bihar 1966, Maharashtra 1973, Iceland 1783, Sahel every so often since time began....one could list hundreds of really lethal famines caused by climate change in relatively stable political conditions.

War is not a particularly efficient killer compared with disease and hunger.

Politics and religion are a definite menace to humanity, however. The political imperative to "grow the economy" and religious demands to outbreed the worshippers of a lesser god, ensure that various bits of the world from time to time cannot sustain their human population. The zero-cost, zero-effort solution, of course, is to make fewer babies, but there's no industrial or political profit in that, so it won't happen.
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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #724 on: 16/03/2017 19:34:15 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 14/03/2017 21:03:58
We are in an era of almost instantly redundant technology where marketeers promote the latest model incessantly. How long do you think it will be before the over consumption of resources wrecks the planet?

The price of almost all materials is lower now than ever. This in spite of all that drivel a few years ago about peak oil.

The reserves of extractable resources are also still going up as they have been ever since humans found the first rock that would split and leave a sharp edge.

Soon we, humans, will start bringing asteroids into earth orbit where they will be mined for the materials they have in them in abbundance which are often scarce down here.

This will lead to heavy industry being located in space where energy is plentiful and polution not a problem.

The availibility of resources is going to be massively more than today for ever.
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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #725 on: 16/03/2017 19:37:34 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 16/03/2017 12:58:33
Famine is caused by politics, war and cli.ate change in that order. It is pointless debating the effects of climate change and what to do about it when it is far less of a problem than the other two. Sorting the divisive issues out will go a long way to resolving all our problems. However human nature flies in the face of resolutions. There are no grown ups in charge.
800 million people live in cronic malnourishment today.

This is largely a result of the increased prices of basic food stuff due to the use of food as fuel. This has raised prices by 30% to 70%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_curve#/media/File:PrestonCurve2005.JPG

How much would a rise in income of $130 a year make to those on the left of this graph who currently have a life expectancy of just over 40 years? I think that's excluding infant mortality.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #726 on: 16/03/2017 20:56:52 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/03/2017 19:24:47
Bihar 1966, Maharashtra 1973, Iceland 1783, Sahel every so often since time began....one could list hundreds of really lethal famines caused by climate change in relatively stable political conditions.

War is not a particularly efficient killer compared with disease and hunger.

Politics and religion are a definite menace to humanity, however. The political imperative to "grow the economy" and religious demands to outbreed the worshippers of a lesser god, ensure that various bits of the world from time to time cannot sustain their human population. The zero-cost, zero-effort solution, of course, is to make fewer babies, but there's no industrial or political profit in that, so it won't happen.
If it happened in a particular year it's called "weather" not "climate".- it's a very common mistake among those who seek to deny the existence of anthropogenic climate change.
But otherwise you have a good point.
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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #727 on: 16/03/2017 22:50:12 »
Quote from: Tim the Plumber on 16/03/2017 19:34:15
Quote from: jeffreyH on 14/03/2017 21:03:58
We are in an era of almost instantly redundant technology where marketeers promote the latest model incessantly. How long do you think it will be before the over consumption of resources wrecks the planet?

The price of almost all materials is lower now than ever. This in spite of all that drivel a few years ago about peak oil.

The reserves of extractable resources are also still going up as they have been ever since humans found the first rock that would split and leave a sharp edge.

Soon we, humans, will start bringing asteroids into earth orbit where they will be mined for the materials they have in them in abbundance which are often scarce down here.

This will lead to heavy industry being located in space where energy is plentiful and polution not a problem.

The availibility of resources is going to be massively more than today for ever.
That's a nice fantasy. How are we supposed to find petrochemicals in asteroids?
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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #728 on: 16/03/2017 23:28:10 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/03/2017 20:56:52

If it happened in a particular year it's called "weather" not "climate".- it's a very common mistake among those who seek to deny the existence of anthropogenic climate change.
But otherwise you have a good point.

The Icelandic famine lasted several years and significantly altered the agronomy of Iceland. It was precipitated by a volcanic eruption whose effects were noticeable all over northern Europe. Now, being British, I consider weather to be a day-to-day variable phenomenon, but a trend that spans more than a season looks like something else. If it isn't climate, perhaps you'd care to suggest another name?     

I was hoping to add some reference to the ecological consequences of the PETM global warming event, but it seems that the warming spike preceded the increase in CO2 level by some 2000 years, so I won't mention it here in case it upsets the faithful!
« Last Edit: 17/03/2017 00:09:42 by alancalverd »
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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #729 on: 16/03/2017 23:40:15 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/03/2017 23:28:10
I was hoping to add some reference to the ecological consequences of the PETM global warming event, but it seems that the warming spike preceded the increase in CO2 level by some 2000 years, so I won't mention it here in case it upsets the faithful!
The only thing disturbing is your commitment to cherry-picking scientific results in the service of denying the science as a whole. Well, OK, your commitment to accepting mythology that seems to superficially support your claims is also disturbing. And your bigotry.

So, yeah, a lot of things disturbing.
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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #730 on: 17/03/2017 12:41:28 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/03/2017 19:24:47
Bihar 1966, Maharashtra 1973, Iceland 1783, Sahel every so often since time began....one could list hundreds of really lethal famines caused by climate change in relatively stable political conditions.

War is not a particularly efficient killer compared with disease and hunger.

Politics and religion are a definite menace to humanity, however. The political imperative to "grow the economy" and religious demands to outbreed the worshippers of a lesser god, ensure that various bits of the world from time to time cannot sustain their human population. The zero-cost, zero-effort solution, of course, is to make fewer babies, but there's no industrial or political profit in that, so it won't happen.

When war displaces populations into refugee camps it becomes an indirect but still efficient killer. Especially when coupled with famine.
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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #731 on: 17/03/2017 13:58:23 »
I forgot to mention the US Dust Bowl. Again arguably not a climate change problem buit a failure to moderate agriculture to a sustainable level. And there's the semantic problem: anything that can be correlated with carbon dioxide is "climate" except when the correlation is anomalous, when it becomes "cherrypicking", and anything else is "weather" because it  is heresy to think otherwise. So the American Dust Bowl was due to a failure  to anticipate 3 years'  weather 20 years ahead.
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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #732 on: 17/03/2017 15:29:02 »
Quote from: PhysBang on 16/03/2017 22:50:12
Quote from: Tim the Plumber on 16/03/2017 19:34:15
Quote from: jeffreyH on 14/03/2017 21:03:58
We are in an era of almost instantly redundant technology where marketeers promote the latest model incessantly. How long do you think it will be before the over consumption of resources wrecks the planet?

The price of almost all materials is lower now than ever. This in spite of all that drivel a few years ago about peak oil.

The reserves of extractable resources are also still going up as they have been ever since humans found the first rock that would split and leave a sharp edge.

Soon we, humans, will start bringing asteroids into earth orbit where they will be mined for the materials they have in them in abbundance which are often scarce down here.

This will lead to heavy industry being located in space where energy is plentiful and polution not a problem.

The availibility of resources is going to be massively more than today for ever.
That's a nice fantasy. How are we supposed to find petrochemicals in asteroids?
Well there is lots of carbon in them so processing it into petrol and plastic should not not be tricky given the free power of continious sunshine.

Although why would we want to ship in stuff from space that is hugely abundant down here?
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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #733 on: 17/03/2017 22:06:58 »
Quote from: Tim the Plumber on 17/03/2017 15:29:02
Well there is lots of carbon in them so processing it into petrol and plastic should not not be tricky given the free power of continious sunshine.

Although why would we want to ship in stuff from space that is hugely abundant down here?
Why do so many people have so much faith in the assumptions of simple economics model and so little knowledge of physics?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #734 on: 18/03/2017 12:52:10 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/03/2017 23:28:10
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/03/2017 20:56:52

If it happened in a particular year it's called "weather" not "climate".- it's a very common mistake among those who seek to deny the existence of anthropogenic climate change.
But otherwise you have a good point.

The Icelandic famine lasted several years and significantly altered the agronomy of Iceland. It was precipitated by a volcanic eruption whose effects were noticeable all over northern Europe. Now, being British, I consider weather to be a day-to-day variable phenomenon, but a trend that spans more than a season looks like something else. If it isn't climate, perhaps you'd care to suggest another name?     

I was hoping to add some reference to the ecological consequences of the PETM global warming event, but it seems that the warming spike preceded the increase in CO2 level by some 2000 years, so I won't mention it here in case it upsets the faithful!
So, you don't think sunshine in July and snow at Christmas are weather (n the North, at any rate).
Others may disagree.
It's a moot point whether volcanic ash clouds are weather or climate, but they are irrelevant to a discussion of whether or not you can discount CO2 levels.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #735 on: 18/03/2017 15:45:44 »
Sushine in July and snow at Christmas are climate. Snow in July is weather, and the recent disappearance of winter snow is climate change.

Vocanic ash clouds are in fact relevant because they may or may not be cognate with very large historic releases of CO2.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #736 on: 18/03/2017 18:39:10 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 18/03/2017 15:45:44
Sushine in July and snow at Christmas are climate. Snow in July is weather, and the recent disappearance of winter snow is climate change.

Vocanic ash clouds are in fact relevant because they may or may not be cognate with very large historic releases of CO2.

So, it's only most of the stuff that you introduced that's irrelevant.
Nobody has claimed that CO2 is the only factor in climate change.
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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #737 on: 18/03/2017 19:04:02 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 18/03/2017 18:39:10
Quote from: alancalverd on 18/03/2017 15:45:44
Sushine in July and snow at Christmas are climate. Snow in July is weather, and the recent disappearance of winter snow is climate change.

Vocanic ash clouds are in fact relevant because they may or may not be cognate with very large historic releases of CO2.

So, it's only most of the stuff that you introduced that's irrelevant.
Nobody has claimed that CO2 is the only factor in climate change.

Actually the IPCC uses all the observed warming during the period, which ever period they choose, to justify the very high projections the spew out.

If there are other factors in play then there is no justification for any worry at all. The temperatures being within the normal range for this interglacial.
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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #738 on: 18/03/2017 22:15:49 »

Quote from: Tim the Plumber on 18/03/2017 19:04:02

If there are other factors in play then there is no justification for any worry at all.

Those whose lives and livelihoods are being wrecked may disagree.
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Re: Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?
« Reply #739 on: 18/03/2017 22:40:55 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 18/03/2017 22:15:49

Quote from: Tim the Plumber on 18/03/2017 19:04:02

If there are other factors in play then there is no justification for any worry at all.

Those whose lives and livelihoods are being wrecked may disagree.

Well, if I understood who that could possibly be I would be deeply concearned.

I don't see a 3 foot sea level rise by 2100 as disaaterous. If that will flood your land invest in a shovel and build some sea defences. Who else is adversely affected?
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