[B_Daniel]

Counterpoints, I had forgotten that not everyone has time to read the other forum and I apologize for that.

It seems to me that you think POIS sufferers have at one time in each of their pasts had an above average frequency of orgasms/porn-viewing. I suppose this would have to be explored.

Counterpoints- you say we're addicted to a natural process in our body that is difficult to escape from?  And this is how POIS is similar to an addiction?  An addiction is a psychological or behavioral propensity to an act which makes it difficult to refrain from.  Our internal body functions don't have addictions from what i know.  Like, my eyes are not "addicted" to poor eye-sight.  The shape of my cornea or whatever is wrong.  My former acne was not because my body was addicted to making zits...  is this really what you mean??/

Per the point of POISers having an addiction to porn, etc., there is no doubt.  POIS causes low dopamine, which increases addictive behavior.  We get a rush from masturbation, which temporarily provides relief from feeling shitty.  So we over-do it.  The definition of an addiction is doing something so often that it causes harm on other parts of your life, but you can't stop.  ANY masturbation fits that description for us.  I masturbated once a day, every night, like clock work, for 10 yrs.  Was that an addiction?  Probably.  Did POIS cause that?.. maybe.  Did masturbation cause POIS?... Not the disorder, only the symptoms.  Is POIS an addiction?... (So is my body addicted to having an inflammatory response to orgasms)- I would say categorically no.

[B_Daniel]

 

Hi guys. Checking in after a long absence.  Have not had anything to contribute for along while, esp. since my medical knowledge is limited, but I have been reading the posts religiously. Very impressed with the ideas that have come up and with the overall quality of the discussions. Would like to bring up two issues. I have been one of longest sufferers on this forum.  I am now 53 years old and have suffered from pois since I was 14.  What I want to share with you can be good news or bad depending on your expectations, but over my almost 40 years of dealing with POIS it has gotten neither better nor worse, both in terms of intensity and duration. Brain fog, lethargy, aches, etc. all peaking at days two and three, just like they did in 1972.  Second issue is support for the NORD fund. I am committing to donating $50 for every $1000 in the fund until we hit our initial target of around 34K (so far donated $100 ...).  Seems to me that it takes only 20 of us to make a similar commitment, and we are there!  Demo et al., thanks for the support and work in support of the good cause.
Rob

Rob - 1st of all, thank you thank you thank you!  I can't believe you've gone 39 yrs with pois.  I think about my 14 years in disbelief - what a drag.  And there's no doubt that this thing doesn't go away with age.  We've all been plagued and you totally understand how important this research is.  It's unfortunate to say it this way, but it's your misery, my misery, our collective misery which motivates us so drastically to give so much money to get rid of this.  I want to spend my money on something positive - not getting rid of something negative.  But sometimes fixing the foundation of your house is more important than painting it.  It's time to repair the foundation! 

The other thing I wanted to point out is that you phrased the issue so so well.  I hadn't looked at it in these terms yet:

Seems to me that it takes only 20 of us to make a similar commitment, and we are there! 

That's exceptionally true.  It shows how close we really are.  And considering how close we are, even smaller donations really do make a difference.  We just need a lot more of them []  Thanks Rob!

[daveman]

Counterpoints, I had forgotten that not everyone has time to read the other forum and I apologize for that.

It seems to me that you think POIS sufferers have at one time in each of their pasts had an above average frequency of orgasms/porn-viewing. I suppose this would have to be explored.

Counterpoints- you say we're addicted to a natural process in our body that is difficult to escape from?  And this is how POIS is similar to an addiction?  An addiction is a psychological or behavioral propensity to an act which makes it difficult to refrain from.  Our internal body functions don't have addictions from what i know.  Like, my eyes are not "addicted" to poor eye-sight.  The shape of my cornea or whatever is wrong.  My former acne was not because my body was addicted to making zits...  is this really what you mean??/

Per the point of POISers having an addiction to porn, etc., there is no doubt.  POIS causes low dopamine, which increases addictive behavior.  We get a rush from masturbation, which temporarily provides relief from feeling shitty.  So we over-do it.  The definition of an addiction is doing something so often that it causes harm on other parts of your life, but you can't stop.  ANY masturbation fits that description for us.  I masturbated once a day, every night, like clock work, for 10 yrs.  Was that an addiction?  Probably.  Did POIS cause that?.. maybe.  Did masturbation cause POIS?... Not the disorder, only the symptoms.  Is POIS an addiction?... (So is my body addicted to having an inflammatory response to orgasms)- I would say categorically no.

Hi B_Daniel,

I think the whole addiction theory speaks more of withdrawl mechanisms as being the problem than addiction, although I suppose you can't have withdrawl without addiction.

If you think of heroine for instance, something easy to relate to. According to the movies, you see that it causes extreme pleasure, but in a short time, more is required to produce the same effect, and more, until the dose required just makes you sick and doesn't produce any pleasure. So you try to quit. But the withdrawl makes you crazy. So you have to take it just so you don't feel the withdrawl.

This is more than just psychological, it's (neuro)chemical, although in withdrawl, the heroine addicts suffers extreme psychological and physical pain. The addict suffers so much pain of both types that he has to go back to the addiction to stabalize the effect.

I think porn or sex addiction / withdrawl would have a lesser and much more subtle influence, so we might not recognize it as such. So from that point of view, there could be something there, however, in POIS sufferes it would have to be some abnormality, that not only makes normal people addicts, but that could have them suffering for years after any addiction could have passed. Or maybe even, we suffer withdrawl symptoms even if we haven't been addicted, because of some abnormality in the mechanism.

But we should approach this subject very carefully, because it's just too easy to connect the "if you touch it too much your teeth will fall out" stigma with normal sex desires. There are a lot of people here that aren't as outspoken and that are much purer than others, and would slip themselves into the addict slot at the drop of a hat, having them pursue a guilt filled remedy down a completely unproven and undefined path (less so than the more promising  pahs that we are following here).

This shouldn't stop us from investigating, but we must keep in mind that it's very much in its infancy, we're not all addicts, and there just may not be anything at all in it.

[makrofag]

If Niacin helps all the POIS-ers. Does it mean that all POIS-ers share the same core problem? I guess that would be great

[demografx]

makrofag, that WOULD be great!

[demografx]

... "if you touch it too much your teeth will fall out" stigma...

I was told that I'd go blind if I touched it,  so I stopped when I needed glasses! []

[daveman]

... "if you touch it too much your teeth will fall out" stigma...

I was told that I'd go blind if I touched it,  so I stopped when I needed glasses! []

Well I've still got all of my teeth and have changed my glasses about 4 times, so I guess you're right!

[demografx]

[demografx]

And considering how close we are [to POIS medical research funding], even smaller donations really do make a difference.  We just need a lot more of them [] 

Hmmmm. Now I hear EVERYONE asking, WHERE do I donate? []
http://rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations/fg_base_view_p3

[demografx]

POIS in Women!?!
A thread right here at Naked Science Forum
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=29253.msg365092;boardseen#new

[Animus]

  I want to spend my money on something positive - not getting rid of something negative.  But sometimes fixing the foundation of your house is more important than painting it.  It's time to repair the foundation! 

amen!  [] very well said and eloquent! I intend to donate again to the fund in the future. b_daniel is an inspiration with his level of commitment!

[Itsthatskater]

I must say it really does boost my confidence knowing there are people sharing ways how to help get better, I mean i dont know if TRT would be best for me, Im on 16 years of age right now and my testosterone levels are good when I cut my sex life for a while. But I mean Im a wrestler and I had a tournament a few months back and I had to wrestle feeling absolutely terrible due to Pois. I took second place, Do i think that if I continued to cut my sex life off i could have taken first in it, Yes i do, I was unable to compete at 100 percent, I was about 50 - 60 percent that day. I wrestled for 7 minutes straight in my toughest match of my career that i won by 1 point in double overtime to make it to the finals, It was all just a blur and I kept going on straight instinct. My strength wasn't there, My cardio wasn't there, I depended on all technique.

 I looked up ways get my body back to normal before it and they said its my Libido levels. POIS was not brought up once. Nobody even thought about it when i asked numerous questions on it. Maybe if Pois didnt affect us we would be able to feel better even if we cut off our sex lives considering Semen is still in our body at all times. And maybe it shows its worst side effects when it ejaculates.

Im not really sure im just trying to throw some of my ideas out there. I really hope I can find something.

I saw a video on something saying there is a way of fixing it but you have to be injected with your own semen for 3 years. That wouldnt necessarily be my favored choice on what to do.

I kind of just learned to live with POIS and learned to deal it. I just know any time i want to engage in sexual activity i pay the price for the next 3 days. I just think it is what it is. I would love to know what its like to live without it but right now I just dont understand how someone can ejaculate and still have the same strenght, cardio, and motivation.

Brett

[Quasar]

Good evening,

Are there any members that had a blood test for Serotonin and vitamin B3 (niacin) levels?

I'm interested in knowing if the results were OK., or they were low.

Thanks a lot!

[Quasar]

I'm thinking about the possibility of combine Niacin + Tryptophan, or Niacin + 5-htp; as a way to increase peripheral serotonin levels.

Remember that low Niacin levels prevent Tryptophan from converting to Serotonin, in blood levels.

This is why i'd like to know blood levels of Niacin (B3) and Serotonin of POIS members.

[Starsky]

Quasar How do you know that you have chronic epstein barr?

[Quasar]

Quasar How do you know that you have chronic epstein barr?

A doctor told me some time ago. It was a blood test. I don't remember exactly, but i think a had a positive VCA IgG, which means i had a past infection. In fact, 90% of people has antibodies for Epstein Barr. It's not easy to know if someone has or hasn't chronic fatigue syndrome.

[demografx]

Last time I discussed SEROTONIN tests with my endocrinologist, he said, "great idea, but they're generally unreliable."

My impression is that there are cutting edge scientific tests that ARE reliable, but prohibitively expensive.

My information is a couple years old, so if anyone has more current information on serotonin testing reliability, please come forward and update my thinking!  []

[Quasar]

Last time I discussed SEROTONIN tests with my endocrinologist, he said, "great idea, but they're generally unreliable."

My impression is that there are cutting edge scientific tests that ARE reliable, but prohibitively expensive.

My information is a couple years old, so if anyone has more current information on serotonin testing reliability, please come forward and update my thinking!  []

Demo,

Take a look at this: "We have explored the possibility of using measures of 5-HT (extracellular 5-HT and 5-HIAA in blood) as peripheral indexes of MAO activity. Depressed patients treated with phenelzine for 6 weeks display a dramatic increase of plasma 5-HT (270% of basal values) together with a decrease of plasma 5-HIAA. After treatment with irreversible MAO inhibitors, rat plasma 5-HIAA decreased in a similar fashion than MAO-A activity in liver, lungs and brain, measured using 5-HT as substrate. These results support the use of plasma 5-HT and 5-HIAA in humans to evaluate the action of MAOI on the serotonergic system."

I think we should ask for:

5-HT and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) in the plasma (blood).

(and of course, also Vitamin B3 levels).

I think it's not expensive.

I also think your doctor means that 5-HT levels in plasma are not adequate to determine brain 5-HT levels. But we don't need that, because, i think it's more interesting to us to know 5-HT levels in blood (peripheral serotonin), because then we will know why Niacin is working, and if we are low in peripheral serotinin, that would also explain migraines too.

Also, take a look at this:

"Medications that may elevate serotonin concentrations include lithium, MAO-inhibitors, methyldopa, morphine, and reserpine. The observed levels are usually <400 ng/mL. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (eg, fluoxetine) can lead to depletion of platelet serotonin levels and result in false-negative serum/blood 5-HT tests".

So, it seems some drugs raise central serotonin, and peripheral serotonin too, as MAOIs.

And, what's more, it seems SSRIs decrease peripheral serotonin. I long suspected that SSRIs cause a decrease in peripheral serotonin, which is not good for migraines, and maybe it's not good for POIS.

I never liked SSRIs.

[demografx]

Thanks, Quasar, wow, that was fascinating reporting!!

I have had a love-hate relationships with ssri's. In 1989 I tried Prozac and it SEEMED like an astonishing miracle took place, i.e., I was lifted out of a periodic "snakepit" of depression. I still became depressed but never again like pre-1989!

But SINCE then, I've been mostly on them (tried em all) and can't tell you what the heck they do! If anything!

But when I stop, I "seem" to get worse. However, I am not convinced that my "ssri withdrawals" are not simply a placebo effect!

[demografx]

  I want to spend my money on something positive - not getting rid of something negative.  But sometimes fixing the foundation of your house is more important than painting it.  It's time to repair the foundation! 

amen!  [] very well said and eloquent! I intend to donate again to the fund in the future. b_daniel is an inspiration with his level of commitment!

Amen to the Amen!! []