[Counterpoints]

Tried Relora for the first time four hours ago.

Felt headachy, heart palpitations, speedy, then sleepy, relaxed/sedated, libido diminution and a little druggy/high.

Steve D.

How much did you have?  This may be a psychological reaction....  I've taken it in pretty large doses before (1000+ mg), and I've never felt very different. At most, a little sleepy, or a little edgy... not enough for me to even know for sure whether this was the result of the drug.  When I drink alcohol, I can feel the difference.  When I have something like valium, I can definitely feel the difference.  When I take an antihystamine, I can tell whether or not it is working.  When I take Relora, I'm basically unsure of any difference.  To me, it does *not* feel like a *strong* drug at all (but it could very well be helping with POIS!).

[Counterpoints]

I've also been taking about 300 mg of phosphytidylserine per day.  And 5 mg bisoprolol/day (beta-blocker).  Plus some B6, and Ashwaganda.  So a lot of cortisol reducing supplements!

Just curious, CP, besides Relora, how did you come up with this protocol to reduce cortisol? Thanks.

I first found out about phosphytidylserine, ashwaganda and B6, from an article on cortisol, I gave in an earlier post (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/757599.html).  Since then I've consulted with some people who work in supplement stores, and have done some reading.  A PhD researcher who works with endocrinologists said that a beta blocker probably reduces cortisol.

[CertainlyPOIS]

CCc, this is very interesting. I experienced this and researched it and it was called "brain orgasm". But brain orgasms never led to POIS for me. But brain orgasms w/nocturnal emissions did.
[/quote]

really it didnt  that is interesting and am cofused. Have you figure any ways to emitt without orgasm that will be way to see  what is the tru culprit.

Yeah i read people with spinal cord injuries say they experience orgams in areas of their body other genitals.  Some say if you touch their hand that is good enough to give orgasm.  I thought that was nuts but interesting.

[CertainlyPOIS]

Also since Fenugreek is supposed to increase cortisol and Relora decreases, perhaps either Relora or Fenugreek are the solution for the brain fog and mental problems.  It's only a matter of whether your body increases or decreases cortisol after orgasm.  If Fenugreek works then maybe its because immediately after orgasm those people have a large decrease in cortisol with the same effects as a large increase in cortisol (that doesn't make sense to me... how can a low amount have the same effects as a high amount) 

Just throwing out my opinion and thinking aloud... any ideas?
[/quote]


i think i can clear up ur confusion a little, cortisol is very important in body for metabolism of all the food you eat.  am thinking if cortisol drops to much and food is not being metabolize it is definately going to affect body.

[SteveD]

SteveD : have Iron had an effect on your Pois ?

I don't know. I was drinking 4-8 ounces of wheatgrass, three times a day ,for many months and felt free from the desire to be sexual which 'cured' me of POIS. I did not get enough iron or B-12 and began to feel weak and tired... and just wanted to sleep. I knew I was not experiencing depression, so I got five pieces of blood work and a urinalysis done.
I began, three weeks ago today, at a doctor's direction, to take supplements. My strength is returning. I have not had a POIS episode until the night before last. In truth, it was less devastating but still very costly (see post from 12/28/08). I'm not sure what to attribute it to. Some guesses are that 1) the amount of semen lost was small. 2) The intentionality  was not to be orgasmic and this I'm finding, more and more, to be a significant factor in the severity of my POIS symptoms 3) I'm working out extremely hard 4) I'm fasting a lot this week and that is very helpful to me 5) I'm working with others on the phone, in person, and online, and the perspective that comes from that seems to help diminish the symptoms as well.
But, it could have been spurious, plain dumb luck!

In years past my iron level has been fine and I still experienced POIS, so I'm reluctant to ascribe my recent experience to Iron

[CertainlyPOIS]

Coreman

How many time has alpha 20 worked.
Have you tried using it without wellbutrin and the other medication
Have you being using wellburin and other medication without noticing difference and only notice difference after using alpha 20c
 
am interested in using it but it so expensive.

[SteveD]

CCconfucious,

>>>i think i can clear up ur confusion a little, cortisol is very important in body for metabolism of all the food you eat.  am thinking if cortisol drops to much and food is not being metabolize it is definately going to affect body.

That makes some sense to me. I notice that when I experience POIS I almost immediately want to eat more food and sleep more

[SteveD]

>>>><

Tried Relora for the first time four hours ago.

Felt headachy, heart palpitations, speedy, then sleepy, relaxed/sedated, libido diminution and a little druggy/high.

Steve D.

>>>>How much did you have?  This may be a psychological reaction....  I've taken it in pretty large doses before (1000+ mg), and I've never felt very different. At most, a little sleepy, or a little edgy... not enough for me to even know for sure whether this was the result of the drug.  When I drink alcohol, I can feel the difference.  When I have something like valium, I can definitely feel the difference.  When I take an antihystamine, I can tell whether or not it is working.  When I take Relora, I'm basically unsure of any difference.  To me, it does *not* feel like a *strong* drug at all (but it could very well be helping with POIS!).

I tried 300 MG. My experience last night was kind of close to what Demografx describes below. I am going to continue it today, but my sense is, side efects aside, that this is not near potent enough for me to offset the extreme physical energy losses I experience...but we'll see



RELORA

"Relora is a plant extract. Because the actual active ingredients are not discernible, there's no way to know what the interactions with other drugs might be. Therefore, I would recommend not taking it with Rx drugs,or with OTC drugs either.

This is what the manufacturer says: [Note the elevation in BP]

'side effects also include dizziness, trouble sleeping, and higher blood pressure.'  "
Quote from: demografx on 28/10/2008 14:42:35

IMPORTANT: ...RELORA - PLEASE READ!

[tarkington]

that is interesting that you mentioned food and metabolism in relation to cortisol.  I don't think I have mentioned this before, but within a day after orgasm I have no appetite.  I have a "sick to my stomach" feeling which prevents me from eating almost anything except ice cold sodas. After about a day that feeling disappears

[underwater]

Hi Tarkington--
Your description of POIS is very close to mine. Insomnia first night with sweating, tension, anxiety and chills. Second day involves fatigue, depression and continued anxiety with chills, but usually a slightly improved sleep. Third and fourth days general anxiety, mild depression and improving stamina, but still a little fatigued.
During this whole period I am anti-social and don't feel like using my mind. Also during this whole period I have muscle tightness and inflammation, expecially in lower back etc. USUALLY by day five it's gone; but it may linger. I've always assumed, for me, that adrenaline kicks the whole thing off until it combines with my high cortisol levels. Adrenaline eases after a day or so but the cortisol stays high.
I think that those of us here (and from my reading I think there are a few)who also have anxiety issues, there is a conflating of the two i.e. POIS make the anxiety worse and anxiety makes the POIS worse. This is why, for me, I always work on my general anxiety first. I can't really "work" on POIS, because I've never found anything that consistently worked. However, I am going to give Relora a try. Also, I have added Garlic to my daily supplements. Interestingly, when I feel real good (non-pois for many weeks due to lack of "O"), I am a lot less anxious about POIS. However, the last month or so my general anxiety condition has been horrible, thus necessitating that I really avoid "O". 

[Counterpoints]

underwater: you say you have "mild depression", "general anxiety", social anxiety, and you "don't like using your mind", while in "POIS".  Yet earlier you said you didn't have mental symptoms, only physical?

[underwater]

Counterpoints, I read that you may occasionally use valium. I've used Benzos over the years for my Anxiety, but I never specifically tried it before or after "O". Have you ever experimented with it in regards to POIS? I've often thought about trying it as an after pill. Also, I've always used very small (subtherapeutic) doses. Never more than 1 mg. a day.

[underwater]

Hi Counterpoints---
Yes, I have a difficult time using my mind, and I will prefer not to engage. But, since I was in education for many years, I was often lecturing or having meetings at undesirable times. I don't think I have the "brain fog" that many people here describe nor the intensity of cognitive disorientation, but rather a very diminished form of "mental" discomfort. Still a very bothersome reaction. For me, it's never really been brain fog and fatigue as the two prime symptoms, but rather tension, anxiety, depression and fluctuating body temperatures. I often feel like a have been plugged into an electric outlet with a mild current.

[demografx]

CCc, this is very interesting. I experienced this and researched it and it was called "brain orgasm". But brain orgasms never led to POIS for me. But brain orgasms w/nocturnal emissions [i.e., wet dreams] did [lead to POIS].

really it didnt  that is interesting and am cofused. Have you figure any ways to emitt without orgasm that will be way to see  what is the tru culprit.

Emit without orgasm?? I don't think that's possible!
Weak orgasm, maybe, but not zero.

Yeah i read people with spinal cord injuries say they experience orgams in areas of their body other genitals.  Some say if you touch their hand that is good enough to give orgasm.  I thought that was nuts but interesting.

Extra-genital orgasm? That's news to me! I think it's totally different from "brain orgasm", if that's what you were referring to.

"Brain orgasm" is basically just a wet dream...but without the "wet" [] In other words, the orgasm is strictly within your mind, and it's completely detached from your body, so no emission occurs! And "climax" feeling can be just as intense as reality.

[Counterpoints]

Counterpoints, I read that you may occasionally use valium. I've used Benzos over the years for my Anxiety, but I never specifically tried it before or after "O". Have you ever experimented with it in regards to POIS? I've often thought about trying it as an after pill. Also, I've always used very small (subtherapeutic) doses. Never more than 1 mg. a day.

From Oct. 2006 to January 2007, I used 0.5 mg Lorazepam pills.  Lorazepam (tradename Ativan) is a benzodiazepine like Valium.  It has a shorter half-life, and it's faster acting.  So it's better than valium for panic attacks.  (It's also used in smaller dosages).  I could feel the effects within 10-20 minutes.  I had them prescribed to me specifically for dealing with POIS symptoms.  I tried taking one to two 0.5mg pills about 40 minutes prior to orgasm, and sometimes one after.  It did help me cope, but I didn't feel POIS was noticeably improved. However, my POIS was better than it ever has been, from Dec. 2006 to Feb. 2008.  So maybe it somehow "reset" my system in a way that helped more than I thought... maybe I started to associate orgasm with relaxation, and that had a chemical effect?  Just some wild speculation. :-)

Coreman has reported good results with Clonazepam (another benzodiazepine).  It has helped with his POIS.  And looking up Clonazepam on Wikipedia, I just noticed something very very interesting!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonazapam:
Clonazepam decreases release of acetylcholine in cat brain [3] and decreases prolactin release.[4]

[demografx]

I often feel like a have been plugged into an electric outlet with a mild current.

I often feel like someone pulled the plug on me []

[demografx]

Clonazepam decreases release of acetylcholine in cat brain  and decreases prolactin release

Fascinating news, CP! Didn't know if you saw that my recent labwork revealed 400% higher-than-average prolactin! (Waiting for brain/pituitary gland scan results). I just sent my endo an email trying to convince him that I'm a cat! = ^ . . ^ =

...my POIS was better than it ever has been, from Dec. 2006 to Feb. 2008.

What do you think happened after Feb. 2008?

[underwater]

Counterpoints--
Clonazepam (klonopin) is a powerful Benzo. 20 mg. of valium = 1 mg. Clonazepam.
Used it a lot in the 90's-- Worked quite well for me then, all around. I tried it again this year, and, no go; worthless--Hit tolerance/withdrawal fast-----------
The general problem with Clonazepam is that if it works - and you take modest to significant daily doses (1mg-2mg) for extended periods of time - and then it stops being effective, you have to taper slowly or there may be serious problems. [I used it with Zoloft from 93-95, then Klonopin alone for the next few years.] I'm considering experimenting with an SSRI, but I'm waiting. I want to exhaust all homeopathic avenues. I may try Relora, and I have another product that sits next to my bed unused-- I am paranoid about all drugs. But I do know one thing, and that is over the last 20 years when I have felt real good for long stretches of time, often the POIS recovery time has been "tolerable"---This hasn't been the case this year, but I hope to return to the "tolerable" condition. This forum has the potential to evolve into a great scientific community. Thank you for your trail blazing--------- 

[tarkington]

Hi Tarkington--
Your description of POIS is very close to mine. Insomnia first night with sweating, tension, anxiety and chills. Second day involves fatigue, depression and continued anxiety with chills, but usually a slightly improved sleep. Third and fourth days general anxiety, mild depression and improving stamina, but still a little fatigued.
During this whole period I am anti-social and don't feel like using my mind. Also during this whole period I have muscle tightness and inflammation, expecially in lower back etc. USUALLY by day five it's gone; but it may linger. I've always assumed, for me, that adrenaline kicks the whole thing off until it combines with my high cortisol levels. Adrenaline eases after a day or so but the cortisol stays high.
I think that those of us here (and from my reading I think there are a few)who also have anxiety issues, there is a conflating of the two i.e. POIS make the anxiety worse and anxiety makes the POIS worse. This is why, for me, I always work on my general anxiety first. I can't really "work" on POIS, because I've never found anything that consistently worked. However, I am going to give Relora a try. Also, I have added Garlic to my daily supplements. Interestingly, when I feel real good (non-pois for many weeks due to lack of "O"), I am a lot less anxious about POIS. However, the last month or so my general anxiety condition has been horrible, thus necessitating that I really avoid "O". 

Underwater I hope Relora works for you, we have almost identical symptoms. Question:  How do you know your cortisol is high?
I agree with you that anxiety issues in the first place make POIS worse and POIS makes anxiety issues worse. I am surprised that combination doesn't drive us insane. Just stay strong.

[martin88]

Fascinating news, CP! Didn't know if you saw that my recent labwork revealed 400% higher-than-average prolactin! (Waiting for brain/pituitary gland scan results).

This is very encouraging Demo, but I think we are among the rare people on the planet who are happy to find bad results in a lab test. In a way it's sad to be at this point!

I heard about a MD naturopath who was treating erectile dysfunction with bromocriptine. Maybe you could ask information about it to your endocrino when the time of treatment will come. If anyone has experience about this it will be appreciated if you post here.

Bromocriptine seems to be the miracle drug : cocaine withdrawal, hypogonadism, hyperprolactinemia. Also :
There appear to be some connections between insulin insensitivity and dopamine. A company is using bromocriptine to treat diabetes and obesity, and their website postulates a connection between neurotransmitters and seasonal variation in insulin sensitivity among vetebrate animals.[5] There are also some connections between temperature and dopamine and serotonin production
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromocriptine

Unfortunately I think other drugs to reduce hyperprolactinemia have been tested (mentionned here) without success for pois.