[John21 (OP)]

John, this is my Scientific Reply to Bilberry Extract POIS Prognosis.

Best wishes for continued success!!!

Thanks Demo, crossed fingers indeed !

Perhaps a stupid question, but what's the advantage of something like Bilberry over Ibuprofen for instance, if it is the anti-inflamatory property that helps?

Not stupid at all. I have no experience with ibuprofen as it concerns POIS, but I am quite certain that I have tried Aspirin for POIS at some time with no effect. How could this be if bilberry is reducing inflammation? I don't know, good question though.

[daveman]

Since there are flu like symptoms and my lymph nodes swell up after orgasm I considered the possibility of semen retrograde where the body could be reacting to sperm entering the bladder and into the kidneys and being interpretted as a foreign invader since the testicles are outside our body to keep cool.  After ejaculation I have semen(sperm) present in urine for a couple days before it becomes clear again.   

This follows closely what I have been finding about forced expulsion of the semen reducing  my POIS symptoms significantly. Perhaps the action of forcing assures that the pathway backwards is closed.

I went to Wiki though and they say that there are few negative symptoms from semen retrograde. I have felt like yourself though, that the forced retrograde coupled with a time developed sperm alergy or immune system overreacting to sperm, could be causing the POIS symptoms in my case.

It was my 15th wedding anniversary yesterday, so I am in day 1 today [] But again, the forced ejection has made today's symptoms quite weak. I almost feel good!! Maybe not so much in the morning, but things are already looking up.

[daveman]

John, this is my Scientific Reply to Bilberry Extract POIS Prognosis.

Best wishes for continued success!!!

Thanks Demo, crossed fingers indeed !

Perhaps a stupid question, but what's the advantage of something like Bilberry over Ibuprofen for instance, if it is the anti-inflamatory property that helps?

Not stupid at all. I have no experience with ibuprofen as it concerns POIS, but I am quite certain that I have tried Aspirin for POIS at some time with no effect. How could this be if bilberry is reducing inflammation? I don't know, good question though.

Ibuprofen for me helps reduce the symptoms about in the same way it would for a cold. I take 500 mg of tylonol + 300 mg of Ibuprofen if the symptoms are strong, and that usually gives me 4 hours of releif (70%). Sometimes just 600 mg of Ibu witout Tylenol if I find that I have higher inflamation (finger, elbow & hips joints).

But quite temporary. Perhaps the Bilberry somehow has a longer-lasting anti-inflamitory effect when taken over time. Probably better for the liver too.

And of course there's the other healthier foods that you eat that could even compliment the effect.

I very much agree that the right foods can avoid antagonizing our poor beat up bodies.

[John21 (OP)]

I wonder if maybe the resveratrol in bilberries/blueberries/cranberries is involved. Perhaps I will try a resveratrol supplement as well.

[Guthrie]

Since there are flu like symptoms and my lymph nodes swell up after orgasm I considered the possibility of semen retrograde where the body could be reacting to sperm entering the bladder and into the kidneys and being interpretted as a foreign invader since the testicles are outside our body to keep cool.  After ejaculation I have semen(sperm) present in urine for a couple days before it becomes clear again.   

This follows closely what I have been finding about forced expulsion of the semen reducing  my POIS symptoms significantly. Perhaps the action of forcing assures that the pathway backwards is closed.

I went to Wiki though and they say that there are few negative symptoms from semen retrograde. I have felt like yourself though, that the forced retrograde coupled with a time developed sperm alergy or immune system overreacting to sperm, could be causing the POIS symptoms in my case.

It was my 15th wedding anniversary yesterday, so I am in day 1 today [] But again, the forced ejection has made today's symptoms quite weak. I almost feel good!! Maybe not so much in the morning, but things are already looking up.

This is really interesting!  If this is this case, it would be nearly the opposite of the 'semen loss' theory of POIS.  That is, the 'semen loss' theory hypothesizes that POIS stems from a problematic depletion of semen, whereas the 'semen retrograde' theory hypothesizes that POIS stems from a problematic retention of semen!  

[Guthrie]

If this is this case, it would be nearly the opposite of the 'semen loss' theory of POIS.  That is, the 'semen loss' theory hypothesizes that POIS stems from a problematic depletion of semen, whereas the 'semen retrograde' theory hypothesizes that POIS stems from a problematic retention of semen!  

a retrograde is considered depletion not retention.
but i dont think pois is much about semen anyway.

In daveman's theory, though, retrograde (or some variation on it) would be rentention in the sense that the semen stays in your system and could therefore cause an allergic or autoimmune reaction.  So it may be a depletion of semen in terms of 'semen reservoirs' but still a retention in terms one's overall system.

I agree with you that, in my opinion, POIS does not seem to be connected to the 'amount' of semen that is 'lost.'  However, I do think it is possible that a biochemical cascade may be set off by something in the *substance* or *chemical makeup* of semen and the effect that that has on the body.  (On the other hand, it is also possible that it could be connected to other chemical reactions linked with orgasm, and not necessarily with semen per se.)

[demografx]

Ive got my own 'personal' proof about semen not the issue with POIS as I talked about 2 posts on page 304.
   

As I (and others) have posted earlier, I believe that sperm regeneration time is somehow connected to POIS.


A few examples:



From rob58, February 7, 2009: "Theory: Depletion and replacement problems.  Several have mentioned this on this forum and to me this seems the most likely candidate. From an evolutionary perspective it is important for men to replace sperm relatively quickly once it is lost. Most can do so but this requires the endocrine system to work hard and take "resources" away from other activities (like brain function and physical fitness). POIS sufferers may have more problems than others because their body is not as efficient in replacing sperm.  One example may be those with low testosterone production or tolerance."

From me, October 18, 2009: "The testosterone affects me less as a stimulant but more as a quicker sperm-regeneration/sexual system/libido restoration mechanism - at least that's my hypothesis".

From B_Jim, September 10, 2007: "Your experience with testosterone is interesting. We have few infos on the release of testosterone and sperm regeneration."

From Martin88, November 11, 2009: "I always thought POIS day 2 aggravation was caused by sperm not fully replenished..."

From exponent, November 14, 2009: "I feel like my body may be pulling resources from other important functions to help produce sperm because I may be deficient in something."



With my successful TRT+stimulants POIS treatment, I can now clearly feel - after depletion - that sperm/semen re-builds rapidly.


In my full-blown-POIS-agony-days, in comparison, my sperm regenerated at a snail's pace.


In both cases above, when semen was replaced to "full" level, POIS was gone.


2 semen references from wikipedia:
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen    (Simple English version)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen        (Standard wiki version)


BTW, An update on my POIS treatment:


I have recently seen considerable improvement on Day Zero (the first 6 to 24 hours), resulting from some experimentation:


(1) Double-dose of testosterone upon POIS onset


(2) Double-dose of stimulants upon POIS onset


(3) Increase in emotional warmth focus vs. physical release


As always, I strongly urge consulting a physician if you are interested: TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) can potentially shut down the body's natural production system in the future, preventing a re-start of natural T-production.

[demografx]

Nice picture demo  [] []

Thanx, B_Jim! Next time, I'll put my shirt on [] []

[demografx]

@ Chat Room: sorry I was away from the keyboard when some of you showed up!! Please don't give up!

[demografx]

It was my 15th wedding anniversary yesterday...

                      

                           Congratulations, daveman!

[demografx]

I just remembered that a few months ago I've asked about my symptoms and added a link to that forum - in a medical forum run by a psychiatrist who is also a sexologist. Here's the link (It's in hebrew... If you want, you might be able to use Google Translate or something...):
http://www.clalit.co.il/CommunityServer/forums/thread/567677.aspx

What might be interesting is that he said that: "Just today this subject came up in the metting of the Israeli Society for Sexual Medicine" and that they didn't find one solution, "It's more a matter of trial and error". He said that "Solutions that were proposed are: Beta blockers, Testosterone, Anti-Inflammatories and more".

I think that it's very likely that at least some of the doctors that disccused about that matter in that meeting have visited this site (before the meetings) and might base they're opinnion on this site.

Omer, thank you for sharing that very interesting info!!

If you agree, it would be very nice to extend an invitation to members of that medical forum to our group! You can post this link:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.new#new

[demografx]

demo...do you experience muscle tension or tightness during pois?

No.

[demografx]

So I must ask, do we have a database of all thats been tried? Something that could be added to John's first post ever to link to maybe? To where a person comes here, sees first page, then blammo they have a link to a database of all the cures that have been attempted and their results maybe?

Every welcome post to newcomers includes B_Jim's summary of 300 POIS cases here and elsewhere on the internet. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

[demografx]

I think I do have an idea: I think we should take some people from here who suffer from POIS and lives in the same area and are willing to take part in a study. Than we should pick up a researcher who would agree to study them. We should consult within ourselves here, and also with that researcher, about the best way to use our limited amount of money for the study. I think that the following part is crucial: The study MUST examine us in a way that have the possibilty to prove that we have a medical problem. What I mean is things like blood test, X-ray's etc, as oppose to tests who relies on non-objective elements - because than people who would look at the study might say that "it's all in our heads", that's it's a pshycosomatic illness.

I would like to give my advice for what study I would have chosen: We can take 10 people from here, who exibits signs of POIS, and than find 10 healthy people who are willing to particiapte in the study. Than, all of those people should be tested, in my opinion, for catecholamines levels and hormonal levels - if possible, in the blood (is there a blood test that can tell us what are the amnounts of catecholamines in the brain?). The tests would be in two phases: First test would be before having an orgasm (the subject would have to not have orgasm for at least a week before the test) and the second one would be, let's say, an hour or a day after having orgasm (it would be best if the people who have POIS in this study would be chosen so that they all start to feel POIS symptoms after a similar time after their orgasm). Than, we would be able to see if there is a decreased amount of those catecholamines and hormones in the two groups, and also to see if the amounts of catecholamines and hormones is smaller, or have been more largly decreased, in the POIS group.

It would be even better if we take, let's say, 12 people with POIS and 12 healthy people, and divide them to 3 different groups (4 people with POIS and 4 healthy people in each group). Why? Let's say that we see a smaller amount of catecholamines in the POIS group who contains 10 persons than in the control group (healthy people) who also contains 10 persons. People might say it's a coincidence. But, if we would have 3 groups, and every time we would see that the amount of catecholamines in the POIS group is smaller than in the control group. It would have to be a big coincidence (reminds me of a chapter in seinfeld...) in order to happen.

There is also another way to do the same thing: we can choose, let's say, 12 people with POIS and 12 people who are healthy, and to divide them to 3-4 groups and to right this here, in the forum, so that it would be clear that we divided them before knowing what their blood test results are. Than, those people should ask their doctor to give them a blood test for catecholamines (BTW, I would definitley include there dopamine and noradrenaline/norepinephrine) and hormones (I would definitley include there testosterone), and if they can't do the blood test twice, than they would have to do the only blood test after having an orgasm. Than, they would upload here their blood test results, and we would be able to see for ourselves if those 3-4 groups of people with POIS have a difference in their catecholamines and hormonal levels than the 3-4 groups of healthy people. For this, we don't even need a group of people who lives in the same area (It's even better when regarding science that the people would not be from the same area - becuase than people might say the the study tells us something only about the people in that area).

THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING, OMER! EXCELLENT IDEAS!

Our biggest challenge has been finding a "Research Director", as you write: "we should pick up a researcher who would agree to study [us]." We have approached a number of well known researchers...unsuccessfully. HOWEVER, this forum has been loosely going forward - on its own - primarily with hormonal testing. I resisted at first, but when I did it, I found excellent results!

Do you have any ideas how to find this research director? (We have already prepared and sent "RFP" letters, which need improvement).

[demografx]

I went to allergist/immunologist and got a list of test done recommend by doctor. They are
cd4 count, ebv titer, serum immunoglobins, sed rate, ana and a test for foods allergy. I am excited about this test seems very comprehensive and the nurses had to draw like five tubes of blood and they said i was testing alot.
Need that bad news lol.

Great going, CC!

               

[martin88]

In my opinion semen is involved in POIS.  People with seminal loss without orgasm have POIS symptoms.

I think there can be a "fertilizing" effect on testicles and maybe adrenals when semen is stored very close to them.
It's still very possible that weak nerves caused by semen depletion can cause endorphins sensitivity or addiction.

This study relates that zinc has a direct influence on testicles. But I think other substances in semen are involved too.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2517451

Sorry if I go against other theories/experiences

[daveman]

I wonder if maybe the resveratrol in bilberries/blueberries/cranberries is involved. Perhaps I will try a resveratrol supplement as well.

The suppliments have much much more resveratrol than the Bilberries, and that's just fine! If resveratrol is an important factor, the supplicments will show it up right away!

Who knows perhaps a combination of resveratrol suppliments and ibuprofen in smaller doses could be a souped up version of the Bilberries.

I don't want to be negative on the more natural methods if they work, it's probably healthier overall, but for us impatient/lazy folk (speaking for myself of course!)......

[daveman]

This is really interesting!  If this is this case, it would be nearly the opposite of the 'semen loss' theory of POIS.  That is, the 'semen loss' theory hypothesizes that POIS stems from a problematic depletion of semen, whereas the 'semen retrograde' theory hypothesizes that POIS stems from a problematic retention of semen!  

I my specific case, I had a vasectomy reversal, and that complicates the analysis. Before the reversal I would have had excesive retention. Although during that time, I don't think that I had POIS symptoms. Now with the reversal, I should have less semen in my system than I had had for some 20 yrs.

What happens to the immune system, which had developed a healthy defense against sperm, and which had apparantly been in some kind of balance (no ill effects). As I understand it, it attacks the healthy sperm where it can. Exactly when and where I'm not clear. But the result is that my sperm are infertile.

So I don't know, with the retrograde, perhaps somehow a ton of sperm is redirected to some point that exposes the sperm in mass to the immune system. During the period after the vasectomy, as I understand it, the tiny vessels that mix the transport fluid from the prostate with the sperm become calcified, damaged and blocked. So perhaps bult up pressure there might allow sperm to enter directly into the bloodstream, where an overzealous immune system takes it's toll.
 But although my case may be different than many, it could be possible that for other reasons the same kind of damage or disfunction could be resulting.

That's why I would like a few of you to experiment with the forced ejection, to see if it could help other too, or it's just me.

[Limejuice]

That study is an excellent idea. If we approach research as you suggested our insurance would cover most the costs. It would also provide credability
When seeing a doctor.

I live in Denver Colorado and would be willing to drive 2 hours for such an ongoing research.

[demografx]

demo...do you experience muscle tension or tightness during pois?

No.

No aches and pains?

No.