TheBox on black holes

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #100 on: 02/03/2016 22:56:08 »


For starters you are off by a factor of 10. On Earth where gravitational acceleration is roughly 9.81 m/s² an object with a mass of 45 kg produces a force of 441.45 Newtons when not accelerating relative to the Earth's surface. On the Moon the gravitational acceleration is 1.63 m/s² and the same 45 kg object produces a force of 73.35 Newtons when not accelerating relative to the Moon's surface. The object has the same mass on the Earth and on the Moon. The only difference is the gravitational acceleration and thus the weight.

I know most of the explanation you just give.   What I am not getting is this,  we determine the mass of an object by ''weighing'' it on a set of scales.  Mass is defined in kilogram.

The object on the scales presses down on the  scales because of the force of Newtons being applied. The object will press down until the scales ''level'' out.

We call the result the mass of the object,




you say - ''The object has the same mass on the Earth and on the Moon''

How is this possible?


You also said - ''On the Moon the gravitational acceleration is 1.63 m/s² and the same 45 kg object produces a force of 73.35 ''


So if we took our object and scales to the moon, the object will have less ''press'' on the scales, by there being less force on the moon, so the result will be less kilogram, which is less mass,

so how do you account for the seemingly contradiction of what you said quoted in bold?







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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #101 on: 02/03/2016 23:10:11 »


For starters you are off by a factor of 10. On Earth where gravitational acceleration is roughly 9.81 m/s² an object with a mass of 45 kg produces a force of 441.45 Newtons when not accelerating relative to the Earth's surface. On the Moon the gravitational acceleration is 1.63 m/s² and the same 45 kg object produces a force of 73.35 Newtons when not accelerating relative to the Moon's surface. The object has the same mass on the Earth and on the Moon. The only difference is the gravitational acceleration and thus the weight.

I know most of the explanation you just give.   What I am not getting is this,  we determine the mass of an object by ''weighing'' it on a set of scales.  Mass is defined in kilogram.

The object on the scales presses down on the  scales because of the force of Newtons being applied. The object will press down until the scales ''level'' out.

We call the result the mass of the object,




you say - ''The object has the same mass on the Earth and on the Moon''

How is this possible?


You also said - ''On the Moon the gravitational acceleration is 1.63 m/s² and the same 45 kg object produces a force of 73.35 ''


So if we took our object and scales to the moon, the object will have less ''press'' on the scales, by there being less force on the moon, so the result will be less kilogram, which is less mass,

so how do you account for the seemingly contradiction of what you said quoted in bold?

As I said previously the scales we have here on Earth have been built to work on Earth. The scale measures the force and then uses the known gravitational acceleration on Earth to convert that force to a mass. The scale ceases to report the correct mass when moved to the Moon where the gravitational acceleration is different. It is a problem with how the scale was built. If you adjust the scale to use the gravitational acceleration of the Moon the scale will display the correct mass on the Moon and an incorrect mass on Earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #102 on: 02/03/2016 23:20:54 »


As I said previously the scales we have here on Earth have been built to work on Earth. The scale measures the force and then uses the known gravitational acceleration on Earth to convert that force to a mass. The scale ceases to report the correct mass when moved to the Moon where the gravitational acceleration is different. It is a problem with how the scale was built. If you adjust the scale to use the gravitational acceleration of the Moon the scale will display the correct mass on the Moon and an incorrect mass on Earth.

Just no, everything is based and scaled of the Earth and mainly the physics of the earth.  Mass is not a real thing, this is how it reads, mass is measured in Kg, all mass is attracted to mass, equivalent - all kg is attracted to kg.

User - what is mass?

science - it's the quantity of matter in a body 


user - matter is the body , huh?

science - its measured in kg

user - so its the weight

science - no weight is newtons

user - huh? you are describing the same thing with different names.

Science definition is not great, we shouldn't say mass is attracted to mass, we should say matter is attracted to matter, and we should say that mass is -

 The rest force measurement of a body at rest relative to an inertial accelerating reference frame.

added - this is the physics definition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass

With the most contradictory statement .


''Mass is not the same as weight, even though we often calculate an object's mass by measuring its weight with a spring scale ''

So even though we caught a fish and it looks like a fish, it isn't a fish. Makes no sense what so ever....


« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 00:25:48 by Thebox »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #103 on: 03/03/2016 00:32:32 »


As I said previously the scales we have here on Earth have been built to work on Earth. The scale measures the force and then uses the known gravitational acceleration on Earth to convert that force to a mass. The scale ceases to report the correct mass when moved to the Moon where the gravitational acceleration is different. It is a problem with how the scale was built. If you adjust the scale to use the gravitational acceleration of the Moon the scale will display the correct mass on the Moon and an incorrect mass on Earth.

Just no, everything is based and scaled of the Earth and mainly the physics of the earth.  Mass is not a real thing, this is how it reads, mass is measured in Kg, all mass is attracted to mass, equivalent - all kg is attracted to kg.

User - what is mass?

science - it's the quantity of matter in a body 


user - matter is the body , huh?

science - its measured in kg

user - so its the weight

science - no weight is newtons

user - huh? you are describing the same thing with different names.

Science definition is not great, we shouldn't say mass is attracted to mass, we should say matter is attracted to matter, and we should say that mass is -

 The rest force measurement of a body at rest relative to an inertial accelerating reference frame.

This is absolutely wrong. Anyone that actually understands physics would never say that mass is attracted to mass. They would say that matter attracts matter and that the magnitude of the attraction of one object to a second object is directly proportional to the mass of the second object and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the centers of the objects. The attraction is the force on the first object due to the second object (or weight of the first object as measured on the second object) and changes based on the mass of the second object and distance between the center of the first object and second object. Once again mass and weight are very different concepts. They are related but distinct.

You seem to have trouble distinguishing your flawed understanding of current science with the actual current scientific understanding. You are attributing arguments to science that are not in anyway scientific arguments due to your lack of understanding. When someone demonstrates that your understanding of science is flawed in this manner you should really take that as an opportunity to learn.

Quote
added - this is the physics definition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass

With the most contradictory statement .


''Mass is not the same as weight, even though we often calculate an object's mass by measuring its weight with a spring scale ''

So even though we caught a fish and it looks like a fish, it isn't a fish. Makes no sense what so ever....

This is getting to a point where I'm beginning to question your honesty. This concept is amazingly simple and the logic behind it is completely straightforward and easy to follow. Your inability to understand something so simple is either wilful ignorance (for some unfathomable reason) or an act in order to upset people that do understand it.

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #104 on: 03/03/2016 01:02:59 »


This is getting to a point where I'm beginning to question your honesty. This concept is amazingly simple and the logic behind it is completely straightforward and easy to follow. Your inability to understand something so simple is either wilful ignorance (for some unfathomable reason) or an act in order to upset people that do understand it.
This is the game Mr. Box plays, and it's a ruse, a stratagem to lure the unsuspecting into arguments he has no intention of ever surrendering to the facts surrounding the issue. I've finally had to simply ignore him out of frustration and intend to stick to my guns with that goal in mind.

I for one, had hoped that he was just confused and tried numerous times to help him understand the error in his judgments. But alas, to no avail. I finally had to surrender to the possibility that he was presenting himself in this fashion to simply further the confusion. After studying many of his posts, I've come to the conclusion that he is not nearly as ignorant as it may first appear. The only conclusion left is that he's doing it on purpose and I've simply had enough of the nonsense.

If you intend to continue communication with him, be prepared to deal with the same thing over and over again. Truly, I hope I'm wrong about him and would be delighted if I'm found in error about his agenda. If that be the case, then I wish him all the luck and success in his pursuit of the truth.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 01:56:45 by Ethos_ »
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #105 on: 03/03/2016 09:51:13 »


As I said previously the scales we have here on Earth have been built to work on Earth. The scale measures the force and then uses the known gravitational acceleration on Earth to convert that force to a mass. The scale ceases to report the correct mass when moved to the Moon where the gravitational acceleration is different. It is a problem with how the scale was built. If you adjust the scale to use the gravitational acceleration of the Moon the scale will display the correct mass on the Moon and an incorrect mass on Earth.

Just no, everything is based and scaled of the Earth and mainly the physics of the earth.  Mass is not a real thing, this is how it reads, mass is measured in Kg, all mass is attracted to mass, equivalent - all kg is attracted to kg.

User - what is mass?

science - it's the quantity of matter in a body 


user - matter is the body , huh?

science - its measured in kg

user - so its the weight

science - no weight is newtons

user - huh? you are describing the same thing with different names.

Science definition is not great, we shouldn't say mass is attracted to mass, we should say matter is attracted to matter, and we should say that mass is -

 The rest force measurement of a body at rest relative to an inertial accelerating reference frame.

This is absolutely wrong. Anyone that actually understands physics would never say that mass is attracted to mass. They would say that matter attracts matter and that the magnitude of the attraction of one object to a second object is directly proportional to the mass of the second object and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the centers of the objects. The attraction is the force on the first object due to the second object (or weight of the first object as measured on the second object) and changes based on the mass of the second object and distance between the center of the first object and second object. Once again mass and weight are very different concepts. They are related but distinct.

You seem to have trouble distinguishing your flawed understanding of current science with the actual current scientific understanding. You are attributing arguments to science that are not in anyway scientific arguments due to your lack of understanding. When someone demonstrates that your understanding of science is flawed in this manner you should really take that as an opportunity to learn.

Quote
added - this is the physics definition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass

With the most contradictory statement .


''Mass is not the same as weight, even though we often calculate an object's mass by measuring its weight with a spring scale ''

So even though we caught a fish and it looks like a fish, it isn't a fish. Makes no sense what so ever....

This is getting to a point where I'm beginning to question your honesty. This concept is amazingly simple and the logic behind it is completely straightforward and easy to follow. Your inability to understand something so simple is either wilful ignorance (for some unfathomable reason) or an act in order to upset people that do understand it.


It is quite clear now to me why you invaded this thread, you are clearly a troll and have come over here to try help your buddies get rid of me, anyone can clearly see you have been dishonest .

I clearly stated - we shouldn't say mass is attracted to mass, we should say matter is attracted to matter.


You reply - ''This is absolutely wrong. Anyone that actually understands physics would never say that mass is attracted to mass. They would say that matter attracts matter.''


Obviously your agenda is not to read.



''You seem to have trouble distinguishing your flawed understanding of current science with the actual current scientific understanding. ''


I understand more than you do for a certainty. do not come into my threads quoting wiki and pretending you are a scientist, you will be soon shown that your ability to personally think is none existent. ....


« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 09:54:50 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #106 on: 03/03/2016 09:58:08 »


This is getting to a point where I'm beginning to question your honesty. This concept is amazingly simple and the logic behind it is completely straightforward and easy to follow. Your inability to understand something so simple is either wilful ignorance (for some unfathomable reason) or an act in order to upset people that do understand it.
This is the game Mr. Box plays, and it's a ruse, a stratagem to lure the unsuspecting into arguments he has no intention of ever surrendering to the facts surrounding the issue. I've finally had to simply ignore him out of frustration and intend to stick to my guns with that goal in mind.

I for one, had hoped that he was just confused and tried numerous times to help him understand the error in his judgments. But alas, to no avail. I finally had to surrender to the possibility that he was presenting himself in this fashion to simply further the confusion. After studying many of his posts, I've come to the conclusion that he is not nearly as ignorant as it may first appear. The only conclusion left is that he's doing it on purpose and I've simply had enough of the nonsense.

If you intend to continue communication with him, be prepared to deal with the same thing over and over again. Truly, I hope I'm wrong about him and would be delighted if I'm found in error about his agenda. If that be the case, then I wish him all the luck and success in his pursuit of the truth.


Game?  you are the only one playing games around here with  your false pretences.   I am one of the only few on here who actually does any science on here, most of you only know to quote wiki and have no idea how to do science or make any science of your own with values such as The Box Singularity.

I know what I have created stop trying to take me for a fool.  I know I'm good because I always get good at what I want to get good at.


You said was going to ignore me, please do so, I do not wan't troll talking to me, I want a real scientist .


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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #107 on: 03/03/2016 13:57:38 »
This arrangement of words also fails to have any meaning.
Then try a new arrangement until you manage to finally say something sensible.

(shrugs)

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #108 on: 03/03/2016 14:03:12 »
I've finally had to simply ignore him out of frustration and intend to stick to my guns with that goal in mind.
The only conclusion left is that he's doing it on purpose and I've simply had enough of the nonsense.
You have a bad habit of not talking about science. At least agyejy and TheBox can provoke a thought. Your posts are merely annoying. There are moderators. We don't need you to play our daddy. Say something about science, or be quiet please.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 14:05:31 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #109 on: 03/03/2016 14:18:11 »
This is absolutely wrong. Anyone that actually understands physics would never say that mass is attracted to mass. They would say that matter attracts matter.
FALSE, and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I'll let an actual scientist speak for me this time:

https://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~strassler/

"The word Matter. “Matter” as a term is terribly ambiguous; there isn’t a universal definition that is context-independent.  There are at least three possible definitions that are used in various places:

“Matter” can refer to atoms, the basic building blocks of what we think of as “material”: tables, air, rocks, skin, orange juice — and by extension, to the particles out of which atoms are made, including electrons and the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus of an atom.

"OR it can refer to what are sometimes called the elementary “matter particles” of nature: electrons, muons, taus, the three types of neutrinos, the six types of quarks — all of the types of particles which are not the force particles (the photon, gluons, graviton and the W and Z particles.)  Read here about the known apparently-elementary particles of nature.  [The Higgs particle, by the way, doesn’t neatly fit into the classification of particles as matter particles and force particles, which was somewhat artificial to start with; I have a whole section about this classification below.]

"OR it can refer to classes of particles that are found out there, in the wider universe, and that on average move much more slowly than the speed of light.

"With any of these definitions, electrons are matter (although with the third definition they were not matter very early in the universe’s history, when it was much hotter than it is today.) With the second definition, muons are matter too, and so are neutrinos, even though they aren’t constituents of ordinary material.  With the third definition, some neutrinos may or may not be matter, and dark matter is definitely matter, even if it turns out to be made from a new type of force particle.  I’m really sorry this is so confusing, but you’ve no choice but to be aware of these different usages if you want to know what “matter” means in different people’s books and articles."

Source: http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/

So, practice what you preach: "You seem to have trouble distinguishing your flawed understanding of current science with the actual current scientific understanding. You are attributing arguments to science that are not in anyway scientific arguments due to your lack of understanding. When someone demonstrates that your understanding of science is flawed in this manner you should really take that as an opportunity to learn."
« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 14:22:45 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #110 on: 03/03/2016 14:27:22 »
This is absolutely wrong. Anyone that actually understands physics would never say that mass is attracted to mass. They would say that matter attracts matter.
FALSE, and I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

"The word Matter. “Matter” as a term is terribly ambiguous; there isn’t a universal definition that is context-independent.  There are at least three possible definitions that are used in various places:

“Matter” can refer to atoms, the basic building blocks of what we think of as “material”: tables, air, rocks, skin, orange juice — and by extension, to the particles out of which atoms are made, including electrons and the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus of an atom.

"OR it can refer to what are sometimes called the elementary “matter particles” of nature: electrons, muons, taus, the three types of neutrinos, the six types of quarks — all of the types of particles which are not the force particles (the photon, gluons, graviton and the W and Z particles.)  Read here about the known apparently-elementary particles of nature.  [The Higgs particle, by the way, doesn’t neatly fit into the classification of particles as matter particles and force particles, which was somewhat artificial to start with; I have a whole section about this classification below.]

"OR it can refer to classes of particles that are found out there, in the wider universe, and that on average move much more slowly than the speed of light.

"With any of these definitions, electrons are matter (although with the third definition they were not matter very early in the universe’s history, when it was much hotter than it is today.) With the second definition, muons are matter too, and so are neutrinos, even though they aren’t constituents of ordinary material.  With the third definition, some neutrinos may or may not be matter, and dark matter is definitely matter, even if it turns out to be made from a new type of force particle.  I’m really sorry this is so confusing, but you’ve no choice but to be aware of these different usages if you want to know what “matter” means in different people’s books and articles."

Source: http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/

So, practice what you preach: "You seem to have trouble distinguishing your flawed understanding of current science with the actual current scientific understanding. You are attributing arguments to science that are not in anyway scientific arguments due to your lack of understanding. When someone demonstrates that your understanding of science is flawed in this manner you should really take that as an opportunity to learn."

I completely agree the definition of matter is  terribly ambiguous.  At the moment I have it defined in my theory ambiguously

Matter - Solidity or substance that occupies space


I am working on this to try to direct it to an exact point of something rather than an ambiguous point. 

I think we can either call photons and like matter or we can call particle solidity matter, at the moment it describes both but they are different so should  be distinguishable.

How about matter for particles of solidity and convertual matter for photons etc? 




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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #111 on: 03/03/2016 14:36:27 »
You also said - ''On the Moon the gravitational acceleration is 1.63 m/s² and the same 45 kg object produces a force of 73.35 ''


So if we took our object and scales to the moon, the object will have less ''press'' on the scales, by there being less force on the moon, so the result will be less kilogram, which is less mass,

so how do you account for the seemingly contradiction of what you said quoted in bold?
Let's say you were on a spacewalk outside a spacecraft. Far above the earth, you are weightless, and so is the spacecraft. However, if you get in between that spacecraft and something else, you will get crushed by its mass despite the "weightless" conditions. That's the difference between mass and weight.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 14:42:07 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #112 on: 03/03/2016 14:45:19 »
You also said - ''On the Moon the gravitational acceleration is 1.63 m/s² and the same 45 kg object produces a force of 73.35 ''


So if we took our object and scales to the moon, the object will have less ''press'' on the scales, by there being less force on the moon, so the result will be less kilogram, which is less mass,

so how do you account for the seemingly contradiction of what you said quoted in bold?
Let's say you were on a spacewalk outside a spacecraft. Far above the earth, you are weightless, and so is the spacecraft. However, if you get in between that spacecraft and something else, you will get crushed by its mass despite the "weightless" conditions. That's the difference between mass and weight.

When you raise an object of the ground, the mass of the object increase relative to the rest mass, an example -the object of 45 kg hits the ground at an equivalent to 90 kg.  ?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #113 on: 03/03/2016 14:47:12 »
You also said - ''On the Moon the gravitational acceleration is 1.63 m/s² and the same 45 kg object produces a force of 73.35 ''


So if we took our object and scales to the moon, the object will have less ''press'' on the scales, by there being less force on the moon, so the result will be less kilogram, which is less mass,

so how do you account for the seemingly contradiction of what you said quoted in bold?
Let's say you were on a spacewalk outside a spacecraft. Far above the earth, you are weightless, and so is the spacecraft. However, if you get in between that spacecraft and something else, you will get crushed by its mass despite the "weightless" conditions. That's the difference between mass and weight.

it is the speed and pressure that crushes you not the mass in that instant,


If the spaceship was a set of scales the scales will measure a greater mass at the point of contact for an instant before the spaceship is sent hurling through space.


Rest mass is different to potential mass.  An object in a lesser acceleration inertial reference frame will  have less mass at rest than an object with a greater mass in a greater field of acceleration,  in another words if an object was on an event horizon to a black hole , it will  have a greater mass than if it wasn't.

There is very simple experiment you can do,

place a 1 kg object on a set of scales, the scales will show 1 kg of mass at rest, raise the object in the air a couple of meters, drop the object, the scales now reads for an instant an increase in mass.




« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 16:15:32 by Thebox »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #114 on: 03/03/2016 16:27:41 »
place a 1 kg object on a set of scales, the scales will show 1 kg of mass at rest, raise the object in the air a couple of meters, drop the object, the scales now reads for an instant an increase in mass.
That's different. In a way, what you did was demonstrate the potential to turn kinetic energy into mass, LOL

Here's a better experiment. Take your scale with you on an elevator. Step on it and check your weight. Now, press a button to go up. You now weigh more. Press it again to go down, this time you weigh less. At no point did your mass change.

Now, imagine you are on your scale in the elevator, and you don't push a button, but rather, the Earth suddenly increases to double its mass. You will weigh twice as much, even though your mass did not change. You would also feel like the elevator was going up, even though it was standing still.

This is what scientists are talking about when they say "gravity equals acceleration."

Speed has nothing to do with that. Well, maybe not "nothing," but at least in this particular context. If you are spacewalking, something happens, and now you are pinned between two massive spacecraft moving toward one another at a rate of only one centimeter per second, you're just going to get crushed in slow motion, that's all. Again, that's the difference between mass and weight. Weight is a measurement of mass in a SPECIFIC environment, as in, you would weigh less on the Moon, more on Jupiter, less on an elevator going down, more on an elevator going up. Mass is a measure of mass in ANY environment. Trust me, the mass of two weightless spacecraft is more than sufficient to put the squeeze on you and your musings.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 16:35:18 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #115 on: 03/03/2016 16:45:04 »



Here's a better experiment. Take your scale with you on an elevator. Step on it and check your weight. Now, press a button to go up. You now weigh more. Press it again to go down, this time you weigh less. At no point did your mass change.

Now, imagine you are on your scale in the elevator, and you don't push a button, but rather, the Earth suddenly increases to double its mass. You will weigh twice as much, even though your mass did not change. You would also feel like the elevator was going up, even though it was standing still.



The statement you  made is contradictory, if something on a set of scales weighs more or less kilograms by relative velocity, it has more or less mass.
Weight is force of Newtons,  Mass is kilogram, the mass of an object is relative to the weight of the force.

The potential mass increases the greater the speed and distance away from the inertial reference rest frame. 

Imagine we have a platform with a 1 kg object at rest mass on it.  Relative to the object on the platform or when the object is on the ground the object has the same rest mass.

If the object was to fall the rest mass instantly increases of the object relative to the ground. Speed  increasing the objects rest mass to relativistic mass.





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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #116 on: 03/03/2016 16:51:48 »
it is the speed and pressure that crushes you not the mass in that instant,
Here's a good topic for debate related to what we are talking about, and somewhat related to the thread.

I have noticed that people tend to fall into two camps in these forums. Some people say that "foreshortening" is "real," and some say it is not. That is, if you were travelling in a spacecraft approaching the speed of light, you would appear "compressed" or "foreshortened." Some people say that is a real physical effect, and some say it is an "apparent" effect that we seem to see, but that is an illusion, that the whole of spacetime and everything is compressed relative to everything else, so all you would have is everything equally compressed and functional.

I fall into the former camp. I think it is real. Remember the elevator? Forget the scale. Get a tape measure. Stand up straight, not on your toes, no cheating. Get a measurement of your height. Now lay down. Take the same measurement, and you will find you are something like 3/4 of an inch longer than you are all tall. The reason is simple. Gravity pulls you down, so all those ligaments and cartilage want to spread out. Stand up, and all the cartilage gets compressed between your head and feet. Now, pressing the elevator buttons, you will find that you are also a little shorter than usual on the way up, and a little taller on the way down.

Curiouser and curiouser. Personally, since scientists keep telling me that "gravity equals acceleration," I have come to the opinion that, if I were travelling in an elevator that was going up at some significant fraction of the speed of light, I would most likely be pancake shaped, and that would be my real shape, not an apparent effect an observer would see due to the warping of spacetime. No, I think I would actually be a puddle of soup.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #117 on: 03/03/2016 17:01:59 »
The statement you  made is contradictory.
Look who's talking ...

You should know this more than anyone, as you hang around forums like these at least as much as I do. No matter what statement you make, no matter how accurate you try to be, someone is going to rip it apart.

Sometimes, that's just because reality is so weird, reality seems to contradict itself. Then, we apply lexically ambiguous languages like English to describe these processes.

A good example: Mass and energy are equivalent. True. Mass is not energy. True. Mass is made of energy. True or false, depending on how you look at it.

I'm not trying to be an authority on this subject, though I do know a few things about it. Nevertheless, I will probably make even more contradictory statements in the future, and so will you, and so will everyone else because that is the nature of the subject matter, so I don't really understand what you are complaining about here.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 17:09:10 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #118 on: 03/03/2016 17:05:59 »
it is the speed and pressure that crushes you not the mass in that instant,
Here's a good topic for debate related to what we are talking about, and somewhat related to the thread.

I have noticed that people tend to fall into two camps in these forums. Some people say that "foreshortening" is "real," and some say it is not. That is, if you were travelling in a spacecraft approaching the speed of light, you would appear "compressed" or "foreshortened." Some people say that is a real physical effect, and some say it is an "apparent" effect that we seem to see, but that is an illusion, that the whole of spacetime and everything is compressed relative to everything else, so all you would have is everything equally compressed and functional.

I fall into the former camp. I think it is real. Remember the elevator? Forget the scale. Get a tape measure. Stand up straight, not on your toes, no cheating. Get a measurement of your height. Now lay down. Take the same measurement, and you will find you are something like 3/4 of an inch longer than you are all tall. The reason is simple. Gravity pulls you down, so all those ligaments and cartilage want to spread out. Stand up, and all the cartilage gets compressed between your head and feet. Now, pressing the elevator buttons, you will find that you are also a little shorter than usual on the way up, and a little taller on the way down.

Curiouser and curiouser. Personally, since scientists keep telling me that "gravity equals acceleration," I have come to the opinion that, if I were travelling in an elevator that was going up at some significant fraction of the speed of light, I would most likely be pancake shaped, and that would be my real shape, not an apparent effect an observer would see due to the warping of spacetime. No, I think I would actually be a puddle of soup.

Interesting , I fall into the neither , I believe the visual Lorentz contraction of a body in motion is just a thing of light perception, however I consider the object in motion, the length expands and is stretched by the force of gravity puling it backwards, like an elastic band stretching rather than a contraction.




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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #119 on: 03/03/2016 17:10:22 »
The statement you  made is contradictory.
Look who's talking ...

You should know this more than anyone, as you hang around forums like these at least as much as I do. No matter what statement you make, no matter how accurate you try to be, someone is going to rip it apart.

Sometimes, that's just because reality is so weird, reality seems to contradict itself. Then, we apply lexically ambiguous languages like English to describe these processes.

A good example: Mass and energy are equivalent. True. Mass is not energy. True. Mass is made of energy. True or false, depending on how you look at it.

I'm not trying to be an authority on this subject, though I do know a few things about it. Nevertheless, I will probably make even more contradictory statements in the future, and so will you, and so will everyone else because that is the nature of the subject matter, so I don't really understand what you are complaining about here.

My apologies, you are correct, it does not matter how we word it at times , someone will have ago lol.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #120 on: 03/03/2016 17:17:04 »
Interesting , I fall into the neither , I believe the visual Lorentz contraction of a body in motion is just a thing of light perception, however I consider the object in motion, the length expands and is stretched by the force of gravity puling it backwards, like an elastic band stretching rather than a contraction.
What is that, the Bob Clampett explanation of Lorentz animation? I guess that's what I get for suggesting I was pancake-shaped. You're frigging hilarious, TheBox, like, seriously.

:D

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #121 on: 03/03/2016 17:23:09 »
Interesting , I fall into the neither , I believe the visual Lorentz contraction of a body in motion is just a thing of light perception, however I consider the object in motion, the length expands and is stretched by the force of gravity puling it backwards, like an elastic band stretching rather than a contraction.
What is that, the Bob Clampett explanation of length contraction? I guess that's what I get for suggesting I was pancake-shaped. You're frigging hilarious, TheBox, like, seriously.

:D


Seriously, consider at this time in your location you are stretched between two points, however the nearest point contracts you , if you were to to magically start to hover and mover a vertical path upwards you would stretch the space-time that holds you contracted becoming stretched yourself, as you reached  the the other body, your stretched length then contracts again relative to the other bodies gravitational strength. 

I understand this relativistic affect is hard to swallow, I am sure you will glance in dismay, but I do not consider one way journey and affect , I consider all the parameters.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 17:28:52 by Thebox »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #122 on: 03/03/2016 18:14:02 »
I clearly stated - we shouldn't say mass is attracted to mass, we should say matter is attracted to matter.


You reply - ''This is absolutely wrong. Anyone that actually understands physics would never say that mass is attracted to mass. They would say that matter attracts matter.''


Obviously your agenda is not to read.

You clearly indicated that you believed that current scientific understanding says that mass attracts mass. You even used a little fictional conversation between a fictional "user" that clearly represented you and "science". I simply pointed out that science never made that argument.

Quote
''You seem to have trouble distinguishing your flawed understanding of current science with the actual current scientific understanding. ''


I understand more than you do for a certainty. do not come into my threads quoting wiki and pretending you are a scientist, you will be soon shown that your ability to personally think is none existent. ....

This is a non-sequitur.

When you raise an object of the ground, the mass of the object increase relative to the rest mass, an example -the object of 45 kg hits the ground at an equivalent to 90 kg.  ?

An object might hit the ground with a force equivalent to the weight of a 90kg object but this is only true under very specific circumstances in regards to exactly how long it takes the falling object to decelerate after first contacting the ground and the mass of the object. Raising the object does not increase its mass in the way you describe.

Switching people I am addressing now.

Then try a new arrangement until you manage to finally say something sensible.

(shrugs)

Please refrain from attempts at provocation. It does not in anyway help your cause.

FALSE, and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I'll let an actual scientist speak for me this time:

...

So, practice what you preach: "You seem to have trouble distinguishing your flawed understanding of current science with the actual current scientific understanding. You are attributing arguments to science that are not in anyway scientific arguments due to your lack of understanding. When someone demonstrates that your understanding of science is flawed in this manner you should really take that as an opportunity to learn."

None of the things you quoted actually disapprove my statement. Clearly definitions of matter can be confused and inexact but that inexactness is never so bad that it is wrong to say that matter is attracted to matter. Further, I point you to several other parts of that very article which you seemed to ignore:

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Matter and Energy really aren’t in the same class and shouldn’t be paired in one’s mind.
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Energy is not ambiguous (not within physics, anyway).  But energy is not itself stuff; it is something that all stuff has.
(Emphasis mine.)
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Photons should not be called `energy’, or `pure energy’, or anything similar.  All particles are ripples in fields and have energy; photons are not special in this regard. Photons are stuff; energy is not.
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The stuff of the universe is all made from fields (the basic ingredients of the universe) and their particles.  At least this is the post-1973 viewpoint.

These are all points that I have made to you and you have disputed. Since you have clearly held up this person as an authority on these things that should be believed over both you and me then you currently have no choice but to admit that you are wrong in exactly the ways I indicated earlier.

A good example: Mass and energy are equivalent. True. Mass is not energy. True. Mass is made of energy. True or false, depending on how you look at it.

Mass and energy are properties of things. Properties are not things and therefore can not be made from something. Things have a property. Properties are not made out of things. I point you once again to the website you linked:

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Energy is not ambiguous (not within physics, anyway).  But energy is not itself stuff; it is something that all stuff has.
(Emphasis mine.)

If energy isn't stuff but stuff has energy then energy must be a property just like mass is a property. Relativity has taught us that the properties of mass and energy are really describing the same thing.

Quote
I'm not trying to be an authority on this subject, though I do know a few things about it. Nevertheless, I will probably make even more contradictory statements in the future, and so will you, and so will everyone else because that is the nature of the subject matter, so I don't really understand what you are complaining about here.

When correctly stated and understood science is not contradictory. The scientific method is pretty much designed to identify and remove contradictory ideas from any system of thought to which it is applied. Sometimes to the layman even correctly stated science can sound contradictory but that is simple a symptom of a lack of understanding.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #123 on: 03/03/2016 20:33:42 »
Raising the object does not increase its mass in the way you describe.

You clearly give that very little thought.   non-sequitur  , I am just trying to remember who says that off the other forums.


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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #124 on: 03/03/2016 20:42:22 »
You clearly give that very little thought.

I gave it exactly as much thought as was required to come to the correct conclusion.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #125 on: 03/03/2016 20:50:08 »


I gave it exactly as much thought as was required to come to the correct conclusion.


You clearly  did not give it enough though, if you  had you would realise the relativistic affect of mass increase which I have explained.  Clearly you are clued up to present information but that does not mean you are in a position of having the ability to think about new information. If you are not interesting in this discussion with no other purpose but to post present information back, may I suggest you are in the wrong thread.

In a baby example of relativistic mass, hold an house brick in your hand at arms length, I assure you within a short time you will feel the effects of relativistic  mass increase.

Try the same experiment with the brick on the ground, you will not experience the relativistic mass increase.




« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 20:57:14 by Thebox »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #126 on: 03/03/2016 21:07:13 »
You clearly  did not give it enough though, if you  had you would realise the relativistic affect of mass increase which I have explained.  Clearly you are clued up to present information but that does not mean you are in a position of having the ability to think about new information. If you are not interesting in this discussion with no other purpose but to post present information back, may I suggest you are in the wrong thread.

The concept of mass and the theory of relativity do not work the way you think they do. You seem to be incapable of understanding the distinction between the force exerted by something when that something is undergoing an acceleration and the magnitude of its mass. I suspect you are also having trouble understanding the concept of net force and net acceleration.

Quote
In a baby example of relativistic mass, hold an house brick in your hand at arms length, I assure you within a short time you will feel the effects of relativistic  mass increase.

Try the same experiment with the brick on the ground, you will not experience the relativistic mass increase.

Case in point this has absolutely no connection to the theory of relativity. I assume you are attempting to reference the perceived increase of weight of a held object as your muscles become tired. This is an illusion produced by your brain interpreting signals from your muscles. You muscle fibers cannot stay contracted without a source of chemical energy. The longer you attempt to keep your muscles fibers contracted the more chemical energy they have to be supplied with and the less time the cells in the fiber have to clean out the waste products from using that chemical energy. Two things eventually happen. The first is that if the muscle fibers need more energy than you can naturally produce they eventually run out of energy and send signals to your brain telling you that they are tired which your brain interprets as the object getting heavier. The second is that if the muscle cells are producing more waste than your body can remove from the muscle cells the waste builds up and the muscle cells send pain signals that eventually will cause your brain to tell the muscles to stop contracting so the waste can be removed. If your brain didn't do that the cells would be damaged and die.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #127 on: 03/03/2016 21:13:30 »
                                       

The concept of mass and the theory of relativity do not work the way you think they do.


Really ?  so mass, the theory of relativity, special relativity, all written down, is all written in some ancient language and there is only you that can understand it?





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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #128 on: 03/03/2016 21:21:58 »
                                       

The concept of mass and the theory of relativity do not work the way you think they do.


Really ?  so mass, the theory of relativity, special relativity, all written down, is all written in some ancient language and there is only you that can understand it?

That would be another non-sequitur. The fact that you do not understand the concept of mass and the theory of relativity does not in anyway indicate anything about either of those things. It certainly does not imply that I think only I can understand them. It only implies things about you, your current level of understanding, and perhaps your ability to reason. Given time and a willingness to listen to/learn from reasoned arguments and observational evidence you could learn to understand these things. The only barrier between you and understanding is your behavior.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #129 on: 03/03/2016 21:24:58 »


Say something about science, or shut your trap.

Let's get something straight, I'll offer my opinions and or my understanding when and wherever I choose. You can take your insults and put them where the sun don't shine Mr. T.

And BTW, it's clear to many of us that you haven't taken the time or effort to examine my activity here at TNS, if you had and could get over your touchy and offended act, it would be clear to you that I also come here to discuss science.

So........get over it!
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #130 on: 03/03/2016 21:34:29 »

That would be another non-sequitur. The fact that you do not understand the concept of mass and the theory of relativity does not in anyway indicate anything about either of those things. It certainly does not imply that I think only I can understand them. It only implies things about you, your current level of understanding, and perhaps your ability to reason. Given time and a willingness to listen to/learn from reasoned arguments and observational evidence you could learn to understand these things. The only barrier between you and understanding is your behavior.

You are seriously arrogant and trying to flame by again being intentionally presumption , you  understand but I  don't understand, your arrogance is overwhelming.   

You are him of the other forum aren't you saying the same thing over and over like you are saying here?


I am beginning to agree with C.W you are coming across like some stalker.


We are in a that can't be true section, me and CW are having an intellectual gibberish  conversation, talking hypothetical situations and all sorts of rubbish or not so rubbish, you are welcome to join in talking , just stop telling us we don't know what present information is.

Look I can read

http://www.bartleby.com/173/

I can watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev9zrt__lec

There is nothing complicated about any of it.








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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #131 on: 03/03/2016 21:45:22 »


You are him of the other forum aren't you saying the same thing over and over like you are saying here?

Remember I warned you about that paranoia?

Quote from: Thebox
just stop telling us we don't know what present information is.


Mr. Box,......agyejy has as much right to question your beliefs and presumed facts as you have to question his. Nobody, and I repeat, nobody has the right to command anyone here to stop their objections to your views or anyone else's..............................PERIOD
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #132 on: 03/03/2016 21:49:10 »


You are him of the other forum aren't you saying the same thing over and over like you are saying here?

Remember I warned you about that paranoia?

Quote from: Thebox
just stop telling us we don't know what present information is.


Mr. Box,......agyejy has as much right to question your beliefs and presumed facts as you have to question his. Nobody, and I repeat, nobody has the right to command anyone here to stop their objections to your views or anyone else's..............................PERIOD

It is not a bother if he comes on and says I am wrong for this reason of logic  , but to keep repeating that I don't understand is very wrong and that is what is winding me up .




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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #133 on: 03/03/2016 21:50:14 »
You are seriously arrogant and trying to flame by again being intentionally presumption , you  understand but I  don't understand, your arrogance is overwhelming. 

Being correct isn't arrogant and demonstrating that statement someone has made is incorrect is not flaming.

Quote
You are him of the other forum aren't you saying the same thing over and over like you are saying here?


I am beginning to agree with C.W you are coming across like some stalker.

You really are starting to sound a bit paranoid.

Quote
We are in a that can't be true section, me and CW are having an intellectual gibberish  conversation, talking hypothetical situations and all sorts of rubbish or not so rubbish, you are welcome to join in talking , just stop telling us we don't know what present information is.

Why? What obligation do I have not to prove that the statements you are making are incorrect?

Quote
Look I can read

http://www.bartleby.com/173/

I can watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev9zrt__lec

There is nothing complicated about any of it.

The ability to read something or watch something is not the same as the ability to understand something. This is especially true when you refuse to alter your opinions and viewpoints when presented with reasoned arguments and observational evidence. One also has to be careful of the provenance of the sources of information they learn from.

Quote from: Ethos_
Mr. Box,......agyejy has as much right to question your beliefs and presumed facts as you have to question his. Nobody, and I repeat, nobody has the right to command anyone here to stop their objections to your views or anyone else's..............................PERIOD

Well technically this is a privately owned space and thus the owners of the space and/or their representatives have that right. We generally call that moderation.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #134 on: 03/03/2016 21:55:17 »


It is not a bother if he comes on and says I am wrong for this reason of logic  , but to keep repeating that I don't understand is very wrong and that is what is winding me up .
So.......he's supposed to agree with you when he feels you are mistaken? Listen Box, there is no shame in being mistaken, we all have been at some time in our lives. What is shameful however is to reject offhand everything someone else has to offer without considering their position. A word to the wise is sufficient.............................
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #135 on: 03/03/2016 21:56:23 »


Being correct isn't arrogant and demonstrating that statement someone has made is incorrect is not flaming.

Ok, you obviously think you are smart, so obviously it should be really easy for you to use all your knowledge to prove this ''idiot'' wrong.


Time does not exist, anything after 0 measurement is instant  history.


Prove that wrong , come  back when you can.



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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #136 on: 03/03/2016 21:58:25 »


It is not a bother if he comes on and says I am wrong for this reason of logic  , but to keep repeating that I don't understand is very wrong and that is what is winding me up .
So.......he's supposed to agree with you when he feels you are mistaken? Listen Box, there is no shame in being mistaken, we all have been at some time in our lives. What is shameful however is to reject offhand everything someone else has to offer without considering their position. A word to the wise is sufficient.............................

Well I have raised the pirate flag in this thread and put our friend to the test.  We will see if he can think for himself or just another book hog.


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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #137 on: 03/03/2016 22:02:05 »


Well technically this is a privately owned space and thus the owners of the space and/or their representatives have that right. We generally call that moderation.
Yes, that is true agyejy but is usually only enforced when someone has become totally rude and insulting. In any case, I think you know the spirit of my remark and why I said it.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #138 on: 03/03/2016 22:04:38 »


Well technically this is a privately owned space and thus the owners of the space and/or their representatives have that right. We generally call that moderation.
Yes, that is true agyejy but is usually only enforced when someone has become totally rude and insulting. In any case, I think you know the spirit of my remark and why I said it.

To me it looks like you are trying to infiltrate into this forum like they/you did over at phys forum, that forum is now shut, it is not paranoia, you clearly seem as if you know  ag.


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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #139 on: 03/03/2016 22:14:17 »


To me it looks like you are trying to infiltrate into this forum like they/you did over at phys forum, that forum is now shut, it is not paranoia, you clearly seem as if you know  ag.
I have never had any correspondence with the fellow Mr. Box. Other than his activity here at TNS. I'm being totally up front with you about this, I have had no affiliation with him whatsoever. Nevertheless, I find his posts intelligent and in agreement with current scientific theory.

I seriously think you would benefit from an honest study of relativity and when I say study, I mean consider the views from the experts before you start making up new theories on your own.  Give it an honest try, you may be surprised at how your perception of reality might change.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #140 on: 03/03/2016 22:21:59 »


To me it looks like you are trying to infiltrate into this forum like they/you did over at phys forum, that forum is now shut, it is not paranoia, you clearly seem as if you know  ag.
I have never had any correspondence with the fellow Mr. Box. Other than his activity here at TNS. I'm being totally up front with you about this, I have had no affiliation with him whatsoever. Nevertheless, I find his posts intelligent and in agreement with current scientific theory.

I seriously think you would benefit from an honest study of relativity and when I say study, I mean consider the views from the experts before you start making up new theories on your own.  Give it an honest try, you may be surprised at how your perception of reality might change.

I agree his input is very wise of present knowledge and I hope he takes no offence by my words, BUT, I have been looking at Einstein for about 6 years now, I pretty much understand the guy , to keep presuming I don't understand is arrogant.   


Do you think I could have a The theory of realistic if I didn't understand science?  A box singularity that I know is quite cool science and not been done before?

How long do you think I have got in life to learn now I am middle aged?

As long as I get somebody to understand the box singularity, job done for me (tired of trying to explain), science over. Something new and realistic to go at for science.





 


« Last Edit: 03/03/2016 22:24:42 by Thebox »

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #141 on: 03/03/2016 22:30:05 »


I agree his input is very wise of present knowledge and I hope he takes no offence by my words, BUT, I have been looking at Einstein for about 6 years now, I pretty much understand the guy , to keep presuming I don't understand is arrogant.   
No Mr. Box, it only means that you and I don't understand it the same way.

Quote from: Thebox
Do you think I could have a The theory of realistic if I didn't understand science?  A box singularity that I know is quite cool science and not been done before?

How long do you think I have got in life to learn now I am middle aged?


You're still a young man Mr. Box, I'm almost 74 years old and I learn something new every day. If fact, the more I learn, the less intelligent I feel. My ego has had to take a back set many times over the years, so don't think the learning is over just yet. You still have many years to solve many things.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #142 on: 03/03/2016 22:31:18 »
Ok, you obviously think you are smart, so obviously it should be really easy for you to use all your knowledge to prove this ''idiot'' wrong.

I would like to make it clear that you called yourself an idiot. I never did.

Quote
Time does not exist, anything after 0 measurement is instant  history.


Prove that wrong , come  back when you can.

Your statement is indecipherable. It does not appear to adhere to the syntax of the english language. Based on your previously expressed views I'm not even sure what definitions you are using for time, exist, measurement, instant, and history. Truthfully modern science hasn't even completely settled on a single consistent concept of time. So even if your statement wasn't indecipherable it probably wouldn't have a scientific answer one way or the other within our current understanding of science.

However, I would point out that the concept of time certainly exists or we wouldn't have the words time, history, past, present, future, instant, etc. So at the very least time exists in the sense that it is a concept that humans think/talk about.

Quote
I agree his input is very wise of present knowledge and I hope he takes no offence by my words, BUT, I have been looking at Einstein for about 6 years now, I pretty much understand the guy , to keep presuming I don't understand is arrogant. 

Simply spending time does not guarantee or demonstrate understanding.

Quote
Do you think I could have a The theory of realistic if I didn't understand science?  A box singularity that I know is quite cool science and not been done before?

How long do you think I have got in life to learn now I am middle aged?

As long as I get somebody to understand the box singularity, job done for me, science over. Something new and realistic to go at for science.

If anything that theory proves beyond any doubt you have failed to understand modern science.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #143 on: 03/03/2016 22:37:05 »
No Mr. Box, it only means that you and I don't understand it the same way.


That's the point , I understand it the same way and I understand more to it and some things differently.   I will give you a prime example,  in the relativity video I provided , notice the part when it comes to the beam of the light and the angle of the beam, relatively neither observer or a third observer or 4th observer observes a beam unless it is a laser travelling through a medium such as smoke reflecting of a mirror, a normal surface does not reflect a laser.


All observers observe that which is not opaque, the clarity of space.

So the explanation is null and void and contradictory.


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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #144 on: 03/03/2016 22:42:29 »



Your statement is indecipherable. It does not appear to adhere to the syntax of the english language.


Well let me assure you that other people understood it very well, they agreed .   

Let me put it another way for you,

The moments on a clock, the moments on a sundial, the moments of cycle rate of the Caesium atom, all recording history, even 1 cycle on a caesium clock is history .

So when I don't jump for joy when I hear the term time-dilation, do not be surprised.






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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #145 on: 03/03/2016 23:05:28 »
Well let me assure you that other people understood it very well, they agreed .   

Truth is not determined via popular vote.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #146 on: 04/03/2016 08:51:15 »


Truth is not determined via popular vote.

Interesting, you have told me I am wrong by the opinion of popular  vote of Wiki. So are you now saying that the popular vote and ideas on wiki are not the ''truth''?


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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #147 on: 04/03/2016 08:57:50 »
Case in point this has absolutely no connection to the theory of relativity. I assume you are attempting to reference the perceived increase of weight of a held object as your muscles become tired. This is an illusion produced by your brain interpreting signals from your muscles.

Relativity is what two observers agree on, I assure you we would both agree the weight is getting heavier relative to us, relative to the ground, relative to space.  Relativistic mass is when the object is not at rest mass in an inertial accelerating reference frame, the greater the speed and/or distance, the greater the mass relative to another body , relative to  the ground.

An object at rest on the moons inertial accelerating reference frame, has less mass than the same object on Earth.


courtesy of google pics -

[attachment=21106]


Looks relativistic massless to me.


 ''I suspect you are also having trouble understanding the concept of net force and net acceleration. ''

Let me think, can I do subtraction......oh yes I could last time I subtracted.

L=X

At(-ve=c)

Bt(+ve=c)


At-Bt=0t net difference


I get no  time dilation between two point using the constant of the speed of light as my ''clock'' 


While the spaceship travels from A to B with an on-board Caesium clock and an observer is on Earth in an inertial reference frame with another Caesium clock, both Caesium clocks lose their synchronisation , the one on Earth remains at ground state while the one in motion experiences time dilation and length contraction, I am timing them both with my very accurate space-time clock of light between the start and finish points of the not opaque clarity of space, and the light travelling from the finishing point to the start point and the invert journey round trip.

My clock shows NO time dilation and no length contraction, the finishing point did not get nearer to my third person observation.

[attachment=21108]


Velocity does not change, an object travelling 1035 mph will travel  24,901 miles in 24 hours.   This does not alter, 86400 seconds is equal to approx 24,901 miles, 1 second is equal to approx 0.288 mile.   The whole Universe , we have time equal to a distance travelled equal to a speed, we have the speed of time set equal to the speed of the Earth's rotational spin.


24,901/86400= approx 0.288 mile


Yes you may look with spine chilling glances, you may reply but we use the Caesium atom now, but may I remind you that the cycles of the transition of the Caesium atom were made to equal the old second, changing the ''colour'' of the clock did not change what it was equal to.

In analogy let us imagine we have a camcorder on earth aimed at the moon and a camcorder on the moon aimed at earth, sam on a spaceship on earth had 3 camcorders on-board the spaceship, 1 looking at the moon , one looking at the earth, and 1 recording himself.


The spaceship sets off to the moon that automatically triggers the camcorders synchronised start.  When sam reaches the moon sensor pad landing zone, the camcorders instantly pause recording.


All the camcorders record in synchronisation of the time the photon packets arrive, in real time,



Now although we think sam has just experienced a slowing time of time, the hard evidence and data on the hard drives of the camcorders, the amount of data space it used, all shows to be equal and shows Sam experienced nothing different to any observer.

In short we use the real time speed of the recordings to time the journeys using the camcorders as a clock.

''Time is the synchronisation of observation''


If two observers disagree on the synchronisation of observation, they are disagreeing on time and would have to disagree about the speed of light .


I wrote this a while a back I wondered what it meant , now it is clearer to me.

''A separation of time and space, illuminated by the fabric of light, a fabric constant that allows the perception of distance , a fabric that alters the very essence of space, an opaqueness to vision clarified by it's very existence.  An existence that synchronises my mind to all of space, a constant that couples my mind to matter, distance a sense of separation of mind over matter,

In my mind time stands still, synchronised to timeless space,  all that I observe, a change in time, synchronisations different to my own.

I observe four dimensions through a fifth dimension of synchronised state, a dimension that allows four dimensions to exist but to not out welcome their stay.''


By the 5th dimension I meant the Box singularity. I think this is the reason people fail to understand me, I am thinking 5th dimensional beyond the 4 dimensions you are in, a bit like being inside the ''twilight zone'', a reality you can't see  by the entrapment firmament of the 4 dimensions.










 


























« Last Edit: 04/03/2016 10:49:10 by Thebox »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #148 on: 04/03/2016 09:03:29 »
Craig, Ethos

Whilst it is sometimes amusing to watch others quibble over angels and pinheads, it would be much appreciated if you (a) stuck to the question and (b) retained a gentlemanly decorum. The fact that you are both wrong in this case doesn't add much to the debate.

Please take a deep breath and "think nice".

helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #149 on: 04/03/2016 14:07:17 »
Craig, Ethos

Whilst it is sometimes amusing to watch others quibble over angels and pinheads, it would be much appreciated if you (a) stuck to the question and (b) retained a gentlemanly decorum. The fact that you are both wrong in this case doesn't add much to the debate.

Please take a deep breath and "think nice".
I stand corrected alan..................taking deep breath.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."