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  4. How do microwaves behave?
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How do microwaves behave?

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #100 on: 22/10/2021 08:26:14 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/10/2021 23:10:58
In that experiment, the beam splitter is the double slit and splitting crystal.
Why are you changing the definition of "beam splitter" here?

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/10/2021 23:10:58
proper understanding on how each of its components work is essential to find out the explanation,

Why do you propose to study a beam splitter which is not in the experiment?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #101 on: 22/10/2021 11:05:51 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 22/10/2021 08:26:14
Why do you propose to study a beam splitter which is not in the experiment?
It is used in another experiment, which is also weird. To understand something, we should start with the simple version of it.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 20/10/2021 04:51:57
Here's another one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%27s_delayed-choice_experiment#Experimental_details
Quote
John Wheeler's original discussion of the possibility of a delayed choice quantum appeared in an essay entitled "Law Without Law," which was published in a book he and Wojciech Hubert Zurek edited called Quantum Theory and Measurement, pp 182–213. He introduced his remarks by reprising the argument between Albert Einstein, who wanted a comprehensible reality, and Niels Bohr, who thought that Einstein's concept of reality was too restricted. Wheeler indicates that Einstein and Bohr explored the consequences of the laboratory experiment that will be discussed below, one in which light can find its way from one corner of a rectangular array of semi-silvered and fully silvered mirrors to the other corner, and then can be made to reveal itself not only as having gone halfway around the perimeter by a single path and then exited, but also as having gone both ways around the perimeter and then to have "made a choice" as to whether to exit by one port or the other. Not only does this result hold for beams of light, but also for single photons of light. Wheeler remarked:

The experiment in the form an interferometer, discussed by Einstein and Bohr, could theoretically be used to investigate whether a photon sometimes sets off along a single path, always follows two paths but sometimes only makes use of one, or whether something else would turn up. However, it was easier to say, "We will, during random runs of the experiment, insert the second half-silvered mirror just before the photon is timed to get there," than it was to figure out a way to make such a rapid substitution. The speed of light is just too fast to permit a mechanical device to do this job, at least within the confines of a laboratory. Much ingenuity was needed to get around this problem.

After several supporting experiments were published, Jacques et al. claimed that an experiment of theirs follows fully the original scheme proposed by Wheeler.[14][15] Their complicated experiment is based on the Mach–Zehnder interferometer, involving a triggered diamond N–V colour centre photon generator, polarization, and an electro-optical modulator acting as a switchable beam splitter. Measuring in a closed configuration showed interference, while measuring in an open configuration allowed the path of the particle to be determined, which made interference impossible.

In such experiments, Einstein originally argued, it is unreasonable for a single photon to travel simultaneously two routes. Remove the half-silvered mirror at the [upper right], and one will find that the one counter goes off, or the other. Thus the photon has traveled only one route. It travels only one route. but it travels both routes: it travels both routes, but it travels only one route. What nonsense! How obvious it is that quantum theory is inconsistent!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser

This diagram below is from the same Wiki article.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #102 on: 22/10/2021 12:59:00 »
Beam splitters don't do magic. They are   very simple.
The fact that this sort exists tells you a lot.
https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=1110&gclid=CjwKCAjwwsmLBhACEiwANq-tXItnY7Y9tZ_9NJnIlPiJWQoOVO-sbl9M3BNJYM7Fc-W_2PF5PkJzQhoCnmkQAvD_BwE
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #103 on: 22/10/2021 16:07:41 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 22/10/2021 12:59:00
Beam splitters don't do magic. They are   very simple.
The fact that this sort exists tells you a lot.
https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=1110&gclid=CjwKCAjwwsmLBhACEiwANq-tXItnY7Y9tZ_9NJnIlPiJWQoOVO-sbl9M3BNJYM7Fc-W_2PF5PkJzQhoCnmkQAvD_BwE

Here's what I found in your link.
Quote
Constant Reflection to Transmission Ratio Over Range
50:50 Beamsplitters
My microwave beam splitter has different characteristics. Closer to normal angle, the reflectivity is minimum. 50-50 split is achieved around 45 degree incoming angle. So there's clearly something to learn here.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #104 on: 22/10/2021 17:50:07 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/10/2021 16:07:41
So there's clearly something to learn here.
Yes there is.
You need to focus on what's unusual about those beam splitters- the wavelength of the EM radiation isn't particularly important. Nor is the variation of reflection with angle.

What's important is the design.
Did you spot that?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #105 on: 22/10/2021 23:18:53 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 22/10/2021 17:50:07
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/10/2021 16:07:41
So there's clearly something to learn here.
Yes there is.
You need to focus on what's unusual about those beam splitters- the wavelength of the EM radiation isn't particularly important. Nor is the variation of reflection with angle.

What's important is the design.
Did you spot that?
I'll figure it out when the experiments are done.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #106 on: 08/11/2021 06:23:54 »
This video is the first in the interferometer experiment series. It shows the basic configuration to make sure that following/subsequent experiments are within expectations.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2022 08:28:33 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #107 on: 10/11/2021 13:15:51 »
And here's the first variation, which replaces the beam splitter with a linear polarizer.
Do you find any result that's surprising yet?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #108 on: 12/11/2021 09:08:51 »
My next planned experiment needs additional 45 degree linear polarizer. It may take a while, but I think it's worth the effort. Just like in basic interferometer, the interference effect using polarizing beam splitter would be stronger.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #109 on: 13/11/2021 08:34:33 »
A few months ago I've made an experiment investigating microwave transmission through plasma.  At the time, I found a counterfeit money detector with UVA source from a gas discharge lamp. The experiment can show a weak but convincing difference of opacity in microwave frequency between on and off UVA lamp.
Unfortunately, the plasma inside the lamp is not the only electrically conductive material there. There's also phosphor coating inside of the lamp glass which may also change its conductivity when powered on..
« Last Edit: 13/11/2021 09:08:59 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #110 on: 13/11/2021 12:14:42 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/11/2021 08:34:33
A few months ago I've made an experiment investigating microwave transmission through plasma.  At the time, I found a counterfeit money detector with UVA source from a gas discharge lamp. The experiment can show a weak but convincing difference of opacity in microwave frequency between on and off UVA lamp.
Unfortunately, the plasma inside the lamp is not the only electrically conductive material there. There's also phosphor coating inside of the lamp glass which may also change its conductivity when powered on..
It's unlikely that the phosphor is a significantly better conductor when the lamp is lit.
In the first place there's no obvious mechanism but  more importantly, if the phosphor conducted, it would short circuit the plasma and the lamp wouldn't work.

If you want to be really certain, you can buy a UV C bulb with no phosphor.
You will probably want to screen the UV it produces.

Did you check that the microwave detector is not picking up microwaves emitted by the plasma?

When microwave ovens first became popular there were some worries about microwave radiation escaping from the ovens.
So some companies started to sell microwave leakage detectors.
After a while, people realised that they had no obvious way to know if those leak detectors worked.

Fortunately, someone pointed out that a fluorescent lamp produces a small (essentially safe) amount of microwave radiation, so you can test a microwave detector by holding it very close to a working fluorescent lamp. If it registers a signal from that, it's probably going to register any significant leak from an oven.

But the point is that a fluorescent tube like the one you are using is a microwave source.

Did you check that you don't get the apparent effect with the microwave source switched off?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #111 on: 13/11/2021 13:21:10 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/11/2021 12:14:42
Did you check that the microwave detector is not picking up microwaves emitted by the plasma?
Yes. The microwave receiver showed nothing when the UV lamp was turned on and off, and microwave transmitter were not involved. I'll upload the video soon.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #112 on: 15/11/2021 02:51:46 »
Here it is.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #113 on: 22/11/2021 09:25:13 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/11/2021 12:14:42
If you want to be really certain, you can buy a UV C bulb with no phosphor.
You will probably want to screen the UV it produces.
That's what I did last week. I've done the recording of the experiment, but the editing and uploading may take a while.
For safety precaution, I only power it up for short durations at a time.
You can wait for the video to be available. But if you have no patience or time to watch it later, you can sneak a peek at the results.

Spoiler: show

- the UV lamp doesn't produce detectable microwave.
- when unpowered, the lamp (with the gas in it) is almost completely transparent to microwave.
- when powered on, the lamp becomes slightly opaque to microwave.
 
I thus conclude that in previous experiment with UVA lamp, the phosphor coating obstructed the microwave transmission because it's partially conductive in microwave frequency. But when it's fluorescing, it becomes slightly less conductive.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #114 on: 24/11/2021 09:51:13 »
Here it is.
This is a follow up of the experiment in previous video. This time the gas-discharge lamp has no phosphor coating, so the effect on the microwave transmission should be produced specifically by the phase change of gas in the lamp into plasma.


Please let me know if you want something to check or verify regarding these experiments.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #115 on: 24/11/2021 18:40:06 »
Can you measure the microwaves scattered by the plasma in the lamp when it is on?
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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #116 on: 25/11/2021 02:30:24 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 24/11/2021 18:40:06
Can you measure the microwaves scattered by the plasma in the lamp when it is on?

In previous experiment, I've measured the scattered microwave from a metal stick. Even though the metal stick is a very good conductor and shows appreciable opacity, the scattered microwave by the metal stick is very weak because it's dispersed to various direction. Only a small portion of the scattered microwave can get to the receiver.
So I estimate that the scattered microwave by the plasma would be too weak to measure. But the attenuation problem due to spreading out of microwave can be overcame by using an array of UVC lamps, arranged like a vertical polarizer. Perhaps 4 or 5 lamps are enough to make a mirror which would minimize the spreading out of microwave, hence the receiver can still get enough power to detect it.
« Last Edit: 25/11/2021 03:52:57 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #117 on: 29/11/2021 04:23:07 »
My experiment using UVA lamp involves both changing of gas into plasma, and turning a surface to fluoresce. The next experiment using UVC removes the fluorescence part. It only feels natural if the next experiment demonstrate the effect of fluorescing surface without involving plasma. I've got some ideas, but it will take time to proceed. Stay tuned.
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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #118 on: 05/12/2021 05:32:12 »
I've done the experiment using fluorescent sticker, and activated them using UVA as well as UVC lamps from previous experiments. Unfortunately the effect of fluorescence to the opacity in microwave frequency is too weak to have firm conclusions. I'm not sure if I'll upload the video.
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Re: How do microwaves behave?
« Reply #119 on: 09/12/2021 11:35:42 »
Meanwhile, I've repeated the investigation on blocking mechanism of microwave using aluminum sheet 0.1 mm thick with various width from 7 to 70 mm, corresponding to around 0.25 to 2.5 wavelengths.
The results show that the sheet doesn't simply block the microwave transmission linearly to the area that it covers.

R means the sheet is placed at the receiver, T means it's at the transmitter.
H means the sheet is oriented horizontally, V means it's vertical.

The slope of the curve can emphasize the periodic nature of the trend.

* transp.JPG (75.86 kB, 1278x587 - viewed 2828 times.)

* dtransp.JPG (88.94 kB, 1272x586 - viewed 2873 times.)
« Last Edit: 09/12/2021 11:39:42 by hamdani yusuf »
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