[timey (OP)]

Alan, actually you are right.  What I'm describing isn't a variable second.  What I'm describing is a light wave moving at constant speed retaining a constant distance between wave peaks when travelling through variable time....  And that when current physics describes the length of a wavelength being inversely proportional to the energy of the light wave, all I am doing is saying that the rate of time that the light wave is travelling through, this reference frames length of second, (relative to a reference frame where light will have a different frequency), will be inversely proportional to the lights energy.
This means that the peaks between waves of all frequency of light travelling through reference frames of changing rates of time will be equally distanced, and that it is the change in length of second that extends or contracts a light wave.
(The logic for a light emitting source is symmetrical to this notion and I have tried to talk about this concept here: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=68849.0
...)

These changes in the rate of time that I am describing are the effects of the phenomenon of the contra directional gravitational time dilation that my model adds to the universe.  And the way light travels through the gravity field of open space surrounding M is indicative of this contra directional gravitational time dilations value at height from M.
(this negates the need for relativistic mass for light, and gives the acceleration of gravity a cause)

If this can be understood then I can go on to discuss how GR gravitational time dilation fits into this picture, and how the remit of this picture can hold distance or length constant within SR.

[nilak]

If the clocks rates are affected by speed instead of thinking time itsels is affecting it can also mean the clock only is affected buy the time not. Thus the clock doesn't measure time anymore but measures relative  speed. The clock becomes a speedometer in the absolute space. Thus the 1/ frequency is proportional the speed. 1/abs f is measured in 1/abs s and is proportional to normal m/s. L/absolute f is in m/m * s = s (which is not the absolute second but the one measured by normal clocks. But L/f is m*s.

[timey (OP)]

I'm really sorry Nilak but I just can't visualise those mathematical symbols.  If I could do the maths I would have calculated my model and either thrown it in bin in disgust (chuckle), or jubilantly submitted it for peer review.  My purpose here on the forum is to ask for help with the maths.

What I can say from reading what you have written is that my post on the other thread describing a concept of an absolute time being a universal 'now' has perhaps passed you by.  I do not see the possibility of an absolute second, only variable seconds of which the second that we know as a standard second is only distinguishable from any other as being considerably useful as a standard with which to measure any other length of second against.

In this thread concerning part 1 of what Colin reckons isn't a very well thought out thought experiment, the speed is held constant and we are just considering that the duration that this constant speed is travelling for has been extended by 10%, but that the car is still marking out 10 metres per second, as per the duration of a second in the lane 1 scenario, and so marks out 110 metres.  And how, if we reset the car to make 10 marks per second that is lengthened by 10%, that the car would then only make 100 marks at 10 marks per longer second exactly 1 metre apart.

[Colin2B]

In this thread concerning part 1 of what Colin reckons isn't a very well thought out thought experiment

What I said was that it was unclear and probably in the description.
This makes it clearer:

Colin - if the car makes 100 marks in lane 1, then in lane 2 if we do not reset the second that the car makes marks at, then the car will make 110 marks with the extended duration between start and stop light in lane 2.  If we reset the second that the car in lane 2 makes marks at to 1.1 seconds, relative to to lane 1, as per the 10% extended duration between start and stop light in lane 2 - then the car will make 100 marks and the distance between the marks will be 1 metre.
The distance the car travels in lane 2 will then be the same as it was in lane 1, because the car is travelling at constant speed per elongated second.

In lane 1 the frequency per second is 10 metres per second.
In lane 2 the frequency per second is 9 metres per lane 1 second, or it can be 10 metres per lane 2 second.

Let's start with some clarification.
“ frequency per second is 10 metres per second”
If you use incorrect terminology people will judge you and your theory accordingly and dismiss both.
I'm sure Alan has already said this, but frequency already incorporates /s so frequency/s would be used to describe a rate of change of frequency.
To describe frequency you need a plain number or count eg marks/s rather than a distance eg metres. This will also help to avoid some confusion in your experiment.

For example:
“In lane 1 the frequency per second is 10 metres per second.” I'll restate this as f=10 marks/s
OK, I agree this.

“In lane 2 the frequency per second is 9 metres per lane 1 second, or it can be 10 metres per lane 2 second.”
How do you get this?
The journey in lane 2 took 11 lane 1 seconds and made 110 marks so f=10 marks/s (lane 1 seconds)

Also, “If we reset the second that the car in lane 2 makes marks at to 1.1 seconds, relative to to lane 1, as per the 10% extended duration between start and stop light in lane 2 - then the car will make 100 marks and the distance between the marks will be 1 metre.”
Agreed, as long as we all understand that they are 1.1 lane 1 metres.

[timey (OP)]

Colin - by your stating the length of the metre in lane 2 as being a lane 2 metre, I take this to mean that you are still thinking that a metre in lane 2 will be longer than a metre in lane 1...

... In which case, no!  You are missing the fact that in resetting the car in lane 2 to make a mark every metre at constant speed per longer second, (ie: the same duration longer (per second) as has been added to the duration between stop and start light in lane 2), ...this being 10% longer - then both the car and the lane are set to the remit of the longer second, and the car will make a mark every metre as per a metre in lane 1.

Take the car in lane 2 that has been reset to make a mark every metre at constant speed per the duration of a lane 2 second, and when lane 2 car travels in lane 1 where the duration of the time between stop and start light is 10% less than lane 2, the lane 2 car will only mark out 90 metres within the duration of 10 lane 1 seconds.

...Just to further solidify what I am trying to convey:
If we get a third car for lane 3, and set this car to make a mark every metre at constant speed per second that is 20% longer than a lane 1 second, the car in lane 3 will be travelling at constant speed per second that is matching the duration between stop and start light in lane 3 which is also 20% longer than a lane 1 second.  The lane 3 car will make 100 marks in that duration of time between stop and start light, but the distance between the marks will still be a metre as measured in lane 1 and lane 2.
Take the lane 3 car and run it in lane 1.  It will make 80 marks in the duration of time between stop and start light in lane 1.
Take the lane 1 car that is set to make marks as per a lane 1 second and run it in lane 3.  The lane 1 car travelling within the duration between stop and start light in lane 3 as per a lane 3 second will make 120 marks.

It is important that the difference between a time experienced by the car, and a time experienced by the lane be understood before I can proceed.

[Colin2B]

…..... in resetting the car in lane 2 to make a mark every metre at constant speed per longer second, (ie: the same duration longer (per second) as has been added to the duration between stop and start light in lane 2), ...this being 10% longer - then both the car and the lane are set to the remit of the longer second, and the car will make a mark every metre as per a metre in lane 1.

OK, I can see what you have done. But you take my point about being very specific in your descriptions, or as Alan put it:

No, there will be 90 marks. Or maybe not. You have given inexplicit instructions.

So to check understanding:
Yes f in lane 2, measured in lane 1 will be 0.909 marks/s.

Again to check understanding:
If we consider lanes 1 & 2 to be at different GPs with lane 2 in the stronger gravity, ie slower time, then we can see that a frequency generated in lane 2 will be seen as redshifted in lane1.
What is different from current physics however, is that lane 1 will measure the car in lane 2 as travelling slower at 9.09m/s. This is because you have fixed the wavelength of lane 2 to be the same as in lane 1, whereas current physics allows this to change and so gives constant speed measurements.

EDIT to correct slip of keyboard

[nilak]

I'm really sorry Nilak but I just can't visualise those mathematical symbols. 

That is because the what I wrote there is a total mess  and it was done in a hurry.
Abs stands for absolute.
The math can be done. The idea is that units in absolute space vs. in a reference frame don't correspond directly like between reference frames because in absolute frame regular clock's don't measure absolute time and therefore cannot be measured in absolute seconds.

Although you talk about a variable second I think you need the absolute second to describe it.

[timey (OP)]

Colin - you are getting ahead of the discussion by adding in GP to the scenario, but when I do add in GP, contrarily to your comment regarding, the gravity potential will be lower for lane 1 than lane 2 and lower for lane 2 than lane 3.
Also I cannot understand where you get this 0.909 figure from.  If something is a figure of 100 and you take away 10%, it will be 90 surely?
And, yes, you are correct that current physics holds a standard second as a constant against frequency.

So - what you might deduce from my last post is that when taking a lane 2 car making marks at the frequency of a lane 2 second (this being 10% longer than a lane 1 second) and then running this lane 2 car in lane 1, that within 10 lane 1 seconds the lane 2 car will make 90 marks... and the space between these marks that the lane 2 car has marked in lane 1 will measure 1.1 metres.
...and the lane 3 car that is set to make marks at the frequency of a lane 3 second (this being 20% longer than a lane 1 second) running in lane 1, will make 80 marks within the duration of 10 lane 1 seconds...and the space between these marks that the lane 3 car marks out in lane 1 will measure 1.2 metres.
(As I have described above, the lane is a standard second, and the cars making marks to the tune of variable time periods are the frequency change)

Please note that these considerations so far have been just to illustrate the addition of a contra directional time dilation. (It may be noted at this juncture that my model states light as being unaffected by gravity potential)

Now I will add the gravity potential considerations:

To reiterate, the car in lane 1 is set to make 10 marks per second.  The duration of time between start and stop light is 10 seconds.
We are now resetting the lane 2 car to make marks per a second that is 10% shorter than the lane 1 second. (Please note that the lane 2 duration between stop and start light is still set at 10% longer than lane 1)
... We set the lane 3 car to make marks per a second that is 20% shorter than a lane 1 second. (Please note that the lane 3 duration between stop and start light is still set at 20% longer than lane 1.)

Looking at this reset lane 2 car making marks in lane 2 at a 10% faster rate than the lane 1 car, in the 10% slower than lane 1 duration of time between start and stop light - how many marks will the car make?
(please ignore SR for the mo, we'll get to that)

Nilak - you cannot have an absolute second in a universe of variable seconds, but you can make the standard second a second with which to hold every other length of second against.  As physics maths is doing this in any case, it's just a case of realising where physics is doing this and then further calculating.
Also it is important to recognise of you are going to use an absolute now or not as a concept.  Without it, the universe is a mess of different reference frames in various state of present, past, and future, and the possibility of an absolute reference frame is lost.

[Colin2B]

Also I cannot understand where you get this 0.909 figure from.  If something is a figure of 100 and you take away 10%, it will be 90 surely?

I think you must have read my post before you posted and before I had amended it. I was rushing out of the house and didn't proof read!
Yes, it is 9.09m/s.

Don't have much time at the moment but will have a read and work through what you have put. Might be a few days.

However, I think we are getting closer to what you are trying to say.

[timey (OP)]

Colin - Just to say that it is of paramount importance that the 'speed' is always viewed as being constant...  and sure, see you in few days...

[Colin2B]

see you in few days...

Not back yet. Can I check a few details:
Lane 2 car was first run in Lane 2 with no special settings - I'll call this car2a.

The Lane 2 car when 1st reset (I'll call this car2b) makes marks at the same metre distance as in Lane 1. It runs for 10 Lane 2 seconds and makes 100 marks.

When Lane 2 car is resent for GP (car2c) do you again keep the same metre as Lane 1? Do you also run it for 10 Lane 2 seconds?

[timey (OP)]

Ah, ok Colin, again it is of paramount importance that you also view the metre as being a constant.
Constant speed, constant distance.  The point being to recognise that a metre is only being affected in length when we use 1 length of second to measure another, such as in instances 1 and 3.

The lane 1 car, running at a lane 1 second (this being the duration in lane 1 between start and stop light) was run in lane 1 where the lane 1 car makes 10 marks per lane 1 second.  Here the defining factor is that the duration between the start and stop light for the lane 1 car matches 10 seconds as per how the car is set to make marks.  Both the lane and the car are measuring as per an equal duration of a second.

In the 1st instance I ran the lane 1 car in lane 1 and the car made 100 marks 1 metre apart.
Then I ran the lane 1 car in lane 2 where the duration between start and stop light is 10% longer than in lane 1.  The lane 1 car makes 110 marks 1 metre apart in lane 2.
Then I ran the lane 1 car in lane 3 where the duration between start and stop light is 20% longer than in lane 1.  The lane 1 car makes 120 marks 1 metre apart in lane 3.

In the 2nd instance I introduced the lane 2 car which is set to make marks at 10 marks per second that is 10% longer than a lane 1 second.
When I run this lane 2 car in lane 2, the lane 2 car will make 100 marks in the duration of time between start and stop light in lane 2, and the marks will be 1 metre apart.

Introducing the lane 3 car that is set to make marks at 10 marks per second that is 20% longer than a lane 1 second, this lane 3 car will make 100 marks between start and stop light in lane 3, and the marks will be 1 metre apart.

In the 3rd instance, I then ran the lane 2 car in lane 1 where the lane 2 car makes 90 marks in the duration between start and stop light in lane 1.
I then ran the lane 3 car in lane 1 where the lane 3 car makes 80 marks in the duration between start and stop light in lane 1.

Now I add the gravity potential.  Lane 2 car is reset to make 10 marks per second that is 10% shorter than lane 1...  But remember that the duration between start and stop light in lane 2 is 10% longer than in lane 1.  ...And the question is: how many marks does this reset lane 2 car now make in lane 2?

[timey (OP)]

Ok, well as far as I am concerned the answer is:
100 marks that are 1 metre apart...

...and if we reset the lane 3 car to make marks at 10 marks per a second that is 20% shorter than a lane 1 second, then within the duration of time between start and stop light in lane 3 that is 20% longer than in lane 1, the lane 3 car will also make 100 marks that are 1 metre apart.
(So we can see that 1 direction of time dilation cancels the effects of the other for gravity potential affected objects)

Now let's add SR:
We will now give the constant speed of the cars the value of 0.866c.  According to SR the cars will be experiencing a 50% slowing of time and a 50% length contraction.

First we need to look at lane 1.  The car will experience a 50% slowing of its time.  In lane 1 the car is set to make 10 marks per second at the same rate of second as the duration of 10 seconds between start and stop light in lane 1... So in the duration of time between start and stop light in lane 1, the lane 1 car experiencing a 50% slowing of its time will make 50 marks.  Each mark will be 2 metres apart.  Should we choose to view these 2 metre distance marks as having the value of 1 original metre, we might be a bit worried that the slowing of the cars time has slowed the speed of the car by 50%, but we can make a mental note at this juncture that when considering a 50% length contraction, the length contracted car will make 100 marks, and that these marks will be 1 metre apart.  If we were at-all worried that a slowing of the cars time would slow the cars speed, then we can observe that the length contracted car is maintaining the 0.866c despite the slowing of its time.

However, when moving the scenario into lane 2 we now have to consider what length of second we are holding relative to the speed of light...
The lane 2 car is set to make 10 marks per a second that is 10% shorter than a lane 1 second, and the duration between start and stop light is 10% longer in lane 2 than a lane 1 second.
My model states light as unaffected by gravity potential so the speed of light in lane 2 is calculated as 299 792 458 metres per second that is 10% longer than in lane 1...  So... 0.866c then doesn't have the same value in lane 2 as it had in lane 1...

...But what we are going to do here is keep the constant speed of the lane 2 and lane 3 cars, (this being 0.866c), relative to the lane 1 second...
The lane 2 car is now travelling at 0.866c relative to a lane 1 second, in a lane 2 second where this speed is now 0.9526c (and I'm sorry everyone, 'cos this is where I lose touch with the numbers) ... but the lane 2 car will be experiencing a greater degree of a slowing of its time, for arguments sake I'll say 55% and a greater degree of length contraction, again I'll say 55%, relative to the 50% observed of the lane 1 car...
...But...the lane 2 car itself is also experiencing a 10% shorter second relative to the lane 1 car, and the duration between stop and start light is 10% longer in lane 2 than lane 1...
So we take the 55% slowing of time the lane 2 car experiences and subtract the gravity potential 10% shorter second that the car is also experiencing, leaving a remainder of a 45% slowing of the cars time.  The car is further slowed by 10% by the duration between stop and start light in lane 2, so we can add 10% back on for a total of 55% slowing of time.  The car will make 45 marks that are 2.222 metres apart. ( Scratches head) Again, if we are concerned that the car has been reduced in speed by the slowing of it's time, we can see that the expected length contraction of 55% will cause the lane 2 car to make 100 marks 1 metre apart...
So under this remit, the lane 2 car didn't travel any further than the lane 1 car, but it did take them 5% more time to get there relative to lane 1's journey time.

Make the calculation for lane 3 and the lane 3 car will also not travel any further than the lane 2, or lane 1 car, but the lane 3 car will take 10% longer to get there relative to the lane 1's journey time.
(This is how GR and SR work within the picture of the added contra directional gravitational time dilation and my model of a cyclic universe)

If you can get your heads around that, (that being my shabby mathematical representation) ...then:

If we now decide to hold the speed 0.866c relative to the lane 2 second, (this being the rate of the duration of time between start and stop light in lane 2) that is 10% longer than the lane 1 second, we will have to physically reduce the lane 2 cars 'speed' by 10%.  By calculation via a lane 1 second, the lane 2 car is now travelling at 0.7794c.  Because the lane 2 car is now travelling at 0.866c as per a lane 2 second, the lane 2 car will now travel the distance in the same amount of time as the lane 1 car does.
Reduce the speed for the lane 3 car by 20% relative to the lane 1 second, thereby holding the speed of 0.866c relative to a lane 3 second, and the lane 3 car will travel the distance in the same amount of time as the lane 1, and lane 2 cars.
(This is the mechanics of how my model of the universe warps time to travel across space quicker)

Edit - Please let me rephrase:
This is how the mechanics of the universe, as per my model, can be utilised by humans to travel across space faster.
(Please note that in a non expanding, slowly contracting universe, masses, in particular galaxies, are not as far apart as current physics denotes)

[timey (OP)]

Have I been dismissed?

[alancalverd]

I think you have just bludgeoned everyone into silent admiration of your verbal knitting.

[timey (OP)]

But do the maths work?

[Colin2B]

I've been off grid for a while, not a lot of time to spend on this but I'm back with some questions for clarification, but haven't got beyond 1st part.

But do the maths work?

Models like these don't prove a theory, but they do help to understand the thinking behind it.
If you can offer some experimental tests, which your theory predicts, which go against current theory then that would help your case.

However, to the model.
Two statements which I would like to understand more about:

...... it is of paramount importance that the 'speed' is always viewed as being constant...

when taking a lane 2 car making marks at the frequency of a lane 2 second (this being 10% longer than a lane 1 second) and then running this lane 2 car in lane 1, that within 10 lane 1 seconds the lane 2 car will make 90 marks... and the space between these marks that the lane 2 car has marked in lane 1 will measure 1.1 metres.

I agree that in part 1 with lanes 1&2, cars in their respective lanes will be measured by local time to be 10m/s. However, when those cars are measured from another Lane, or run in another lane, not their own, then the measured speed will differ. For example, when the Lane 2 car is run in Lane 1 it will run at 9.09m/s.
Also, my calculations show a different result to that in bold above. The Lane 1 marks made by the Lane 2 car will be 0.909m apart not 1.1m, so I am obviously misunderstanding your instructions.

Also, I see that in #111 you add "Now I add the gravity potential.  Lane 2 car is reset to make 10 marks per second that is 10% shorter than lane 1...  But remember that the duration between start and stop light in lane 2 is 10% longer than in lane 1.  ...And the question is: how many marks does this reset lane 2 car now make in lane 2?"
And in #112 you say "there are 100 marks and they are 1m apart."
I don't get the same answer.
If I follow your instructions and instead of setting the car to make marks at 10% longer (but maintaining 1m spacing) then set the car to make marks at a second 10% shorter than Lane 1, then in this case I end up with the car making 122.1 marks in Lane 2.
However, because you talk about adding the GP, I assume you really mean to adjust the car which had +10% with an additional -10% thus bringing it close to the original scenario, however that gives 110 marks in Lane 2.
Again, what instructions are you working with?

Also, could you explain your comment "So we can see that 1 direction of time dilation cancels the effects of the other for gravity potential affected objects", because it sounds as though you are saying that there is no GP red/blue shift because your inverse dilation cancels it out! If so, I don't understand how your theory matches current observations.

Just an aside, I don't have time to go through the SR part, I'm more interested in the GP Section.

I think you have just bludgeoned everyone into silent admiration of your verbal knitting.

This is serious knitting and it does take some untangling.

[timey (OP)]

I am aware that maths do not prove a theory.  What I am seeking here is mathematical representation of the concepts that describe my model of a cyclic universe.
Again, the synopsis of my theory which is available on my personal details, outlines my models suggested experiment to prove or disprove itself.

To answer your questions:

Yes - in part 1 of the experiment the car was set to make 10 marks per second, and each mark is 1 metre apart.  The second that the car makes 10 marks per is set as per the 10 second duration between start and stop light in lane 1.
(Here the lane 1 car is making marks at the same rate of a second being used for duration between start and stop light in lane 1)

In lane 2 the duration between start and stop light is 10% longer than lane 1, and in lane 3 it is 20% longer than lane 1 - so the car set to make 10 marks as per a lane 1 second will make 110 marks in lane 2's 10 second duration between start and stop light, and 120 marks in lane 3's 10 second duration between start and stop light.  Each mark will be 1 metre apart.
(Here we can see that while the car itself is making marks at the rate of a lane 1 second, it is travelling within the duration of a second that is 10%, or 20% longer than the rate the car is making marks at.  The car itself is experiencing a faster rate of second than the rate of second it is travelling through and travels further.
Please note: I have not added gravity potential here.  All I am showing is that by using 1 length of second to measure a journey made at a constant speed in a reference frame inherent with a differing length of second, that distances may be compromised.)

To further illustrate:
When I introduce the lane 2 and lane 3 cars, we swap parameters and set the car in lane 2 to make 10 marks per second as per the rate of second used for the 10 second duration between start and stop light in lane 2, this being 10% longer than a lane 1 second.  The lane 2 car travelling in the lane 2 duration between start and stop light will now make 100 marks that are 1 metre apart.
But the lane 2 car travelling in the duration of a lane 1 second will make 90 marks that are 1.1 metres apart...  And the lane 3 car that makes 100 marks 1 metre apart in the lane 3 duration between start and stop light, will make 80 marks when travelling in lane 1 that are 1.2 metres apart.
(Here the car is experiencing a slower rate of second than the rate of time it is travelling through.)

Ok - what you are maybe missing is that in lane 1, the car and the lane (ie: the duration between start and stop light), are set at the same length of second.  And when we make changes to the lengths of seconds in lane 2 and 3 for either the lane or the car, it is important that you, if you are to view the thought experiment under the suggested remit, recognise that we are, at this stage maintaining constant speed and inferring constant distance, so to avoid confusion could you please refer to m/s as metres per second, this being a speed, and marks per second as being the marks a car makes per variable second.  It's important to distinguish the difference.

Ok, in adding gravity potential to lane 2 and setting the car to make marks as per a second that is 10% shorter than a lane 1 second, this will be a little bit like running a lane 1 car in lane 2, where the lane 1 car will make 110 marks 1 metre apart in lane 2... except for the fact that the car will be making marks at a 10% faster rate than a lane 1 car... so, (and yes you are right here), the car will make 120 marks 1 metre apart, but only if we use the 10% shorter second to measure the journey with.
But if I use the lane 2 second to measure the marks that the lane 2 car is making at 20% faster rate than the lane 2 second, then this would be synonymous to taking the lane 3 car that is set to run at 20% slower rate than a lane 1 second and running it in lane 1, where the car will make 80 marks at 1.2 metres apart for a total of 100 metres.
But if I measure the situation as per relative to a lane 1 second, lane 2 is running at a 10% longer second than lane 1, so the lane 2 second measuring the car making marks at a rate that is 10% faster, when held relative to a lane 1 second will record 90 marks at 1.1 metres for a total of 100 metres...
And the car running at a 10% shorter second, relative to a lane 1 second, marking lane 2 will make 110 marks at 0.9 metres for a total of 100 metres.
(This is what I refer to when I say that a gravitational time dilation that is causing a slower time, and a gravitational time dilation that is causing a faster time, if equally apportioned, will each cancel out the others time dilation related changes to the distance travelled.  Granted, I should have added: and this becomes apparent when relating the actions of both these gravitational time dilation phenomenon back to a 'standardised' lane 1 second)

I am saying that in my model light is not affected by gravity potential.  That light is only affected by the added contra directional gravitational time dilation. ie: that redshifts and blue shifts are caused by the contra directional gravitational time dilation of my model, and that the frequency of light travelling across space is stretched over, or compressed into time, not stretched over, or compressed into distance...
The gravity potential considerations are concerning objects with rest mass which is where GR and SR have their place in my model.

[Colin2B]

when I get chance I'll read through your last post and see what it changes.

[alancalverd]

Now here's a problem. You have defined the second as one tenth of the time between the start and stop light. But when the car starts moving, neither it nor the occupants know when the stop light is going to light because the second hasn't been defined until it does, so they don't know when to make marks on the road.

I think that's called a purl stitch in your knitting.