[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The criminal's goal is to eat. If he doesn't, "long term" is meaningless.

He could just try farming, fishing, ask, open gofundme, etc. instead of doing crime.
If his longterm goal is limited by his own lifetime, then it can't be universal.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

That universal terminal goal is the ultimate reason why we use reason at all, and not become irrationalists, hyper sceptics, or nihilists.

The fact that some people become irrationalists, hypersceptics or nihilists (not to mention fascists or communists) denies the existence of a universal goal.

I absolutely agree with you. Everything is relative in the aspect of morality and for each conviction can be equally strong and correct, both for a fascist and an anti-fascist. And each of them will bring their own incredibly powerful arguments.

It's like saying that the fact that there are still flat-earthers denies the existence of a universal gravitation. Or the existence of people believing in simulation hypothesis denies the existence of an objective reality.

[alancalverd]

More criminals prosper than farmers. Worst that can happen is you spend a few years being fed at the taxpayer''s expense, studying a trade or an Open University degree, playing chess, and learning from your fellow-professionals. Fishing is dangerous.

Universal presumably means that it applies to everyone, nothing to do with long or short term. I have no goals beyond my own lifetime.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

More criminals prosper than farmers. Worst that can happen is you spend a few years being fed at the taxpayer''s expense, studying a trade or an Open University degree, playing chess, and learning from your fellow-professionals. Fishing is dangerous.

Universal presumably means that it applies to everyone, nothing to do with long or short term. I have no goals beyond my own lifetime.

It means that the law enforcement is ineffective, thus needs improvements. Doing crime should be made more dangerous toward the perpetrators,  so people with self interest are discouraged from it.

Universal goal means that it applies to any conscious entities, no matter what element they are based on.
The long term goal is suggested by the word terminal, assuming that causes precede consequences.
The consciousness part is required by the word goal itself.
Don't you want to leave a better world for your kids, grand kids, and the next generation?

[alancalverd]

Law enforcement, i.e. policing and prosecution, is ineffective, and when it results in a conviction, punishment and protection simply puts a burden on the taxpayer and does nothing to prevent further crimes. When the world comes to its senses, criminals will simply be placed on an island or enclosed in a fenced area and left to get on with building whatever alternative society they want, including the right to die from exposure or establish sustainable housing and agriculture.

Australia works OK but I'd prefer to start with an uninhabited area rather than allow my scum to attack a native population. Bleeding hearts from time to time wail about the depopulation of Scottish islands, so why not pay the remaining inhabitants to resettle on the mainland, and dump our human detritus on a place which does at least have sheep and potatoes?

The problem with your universal goal seems to be that it is something you want to impose on the universe, whereas I interpreted it as something that the universe, or at  least those elements that could express an idea, wanted. Problem is that everything that embodies whatever you define as consciousness, has a different idea of perfection.

I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants, but this may involve it being less comfortable for your descendants, since we are distributing decreasing resources among an increasing population.   

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Law enforcement, i.e. policing and prosecution, is ineffective, and when it results in a conviction, punishment and protection simply puts a burden on the taxpayer and does nothing to prevent further crimes. When the world comes to its senses, criminals will simply be placed on an island or enclosed in a fenced area and left to get on with building whatever alternative society they want, including the right to die from exposure or establish sustainable housing and agriculture.

In industrial practice, improvements start with identifying problems. The next step is finding the root cause and contributing causes. Then make a plan to address them to prevent the problem from reoccuring in the future. The chosen plan may depend on available resources, based on its effectiveness and efficiency. Then execute the plan and evaluate the results, which may produce side effects or residual problems.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The problem with your universal goal seems to be that it is something you want to impose on the universe, whereas I interpreted it as something that the universe, or at  least those elements that could express an idea, wanted. Problem is that everything that embodies whatever you define as consciousness, has a different idea of perfection.

My idea of universal terminal goal is imposed by the definitions of each words in the phrase. I don't remember if you've proposed any alternative. You only said that it doesn't exist.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants, but this may involve it being less comfortable for your descendants, since we are distributing decreasing resources among an increasing population.   

decreasing resources and increasing population are just your assumptions. Being multiplanetary and being innovative can increase resource. Regulation and education can reduce or maintain population.

[alancalverd]

decreasing resources and increasing population are just your assumptions.

Observation, definition of life, and basic physics:  ΔS > 0. Not assumptions.

[alancalverd]

I don't remember if you've proposed any alternative. You only said that it doesn't exist.

It would be dishonest to propose an alternative definition of something that cannot exist.

[alancalverd]

In industrial practice, improvements start with identifying problems. The next step is finding the root cause and contributing causes. Then make a plan to address them to prevent the problem from reoccuring in the future. The chosen plan may depend on available resources, based on its effectiveness and efficiency. Then execute the plan and evaluate the results, which may produce side effects or residual problems.

Problem: criminals (by definition) disrupt the normal working of a cohesive society, and harm innocent individuals

Root cause: parasitism is more efficient than hosting

Plan: identify and segregate parasites in a selfcontained community

Benefit: gradual elimination of problem

Cost: negligible

Residual problems: none in the medium term, if segregation is complete and permanent.

Possible longterm undesirable effect: parasites organise themselves into an army and invade the hosts en masse

Likelihood of side effect: very low, as parasites may prefer to feed on each other (see "bacteriophage"), being closer to hand

Side benefit: the threat of permanent banishment to a small rock in the north Atlantic may discourage newcomers from taking up crime as a career

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

decreasing resources and increasing population are just your assumptions.

Observation, definition of life, and basic physics:  ΔS > 0. Not assumptions.

For a closed system. The earth is clearly not one. It continuously receive energy from the sun. Up to some point in the future.
Survival of consciousness beyond that point is a real possibility. Someone will try to make it, someone else won't. Any form of consciousness which will make it are more likely the product of someone who try to make it. It's just natural selection at work.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I don't remember if you've proposed any alternative. You only said that it doesn't exist.

It would be dishonest to propose an alternative definition of something that cannot exist.

But you offered an interpretation.

The problem with your universal goal seems to be that it is something you want to impose on the universe, whereas I interpreted it as something that the universe, or at  least those elements that could express an idea, wanted. Problem is that everything that embodies whatever you define as consciousness, has a different idea of perfection.

Sure, different forms of consciousness have some differences. But they also have some similarities. The universal goal must be based on those similarities, instead of the differences.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Root cause: parasitism is more efficient than hosting

Except when the hosts goes extinct, or start building effective defensive counter measure.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Plato and the origin of mental health - PubMed

Abstract
This essay examines the history of the concept of mental health. Its origin can be traced to Plato, who argued that immorality is to the soul what disease is to the body. The purpose of this argument was to answer those who thought that morality is a set of social conventions, and in that sense, is contrary to nature. Plato responded by turning to those who made a systematic study of nature--the medical writers of his day--and claiming that if proper balance is needed to maintain a healthy body, the same is true of the soul. Thus the natural state of the soul is one in which the various parts agree on which should rule. This does not mean that Plato sought to excuse immoral behavior by treating it as a medical condition, only that he regarded immoral behavior as contrary to nature and thus treatable. Although later attempts to define mental health are not as rigid as Plato's, it is remarkable how many of his insights are still applicable, in particular the claim that morality and mental health, though not identical, are nonetheless linked. A case in point is the experience of wanting something but not liking the fact that you want it. Plato regarded internal conflict of this sort as a paradigm case of psychic dysfunction. I argue that we can regard it as either a moral failing or a mental one.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18962894/

Nowadays, soul and mind can be interpreted as various states of neurons and neurotransmitters which affect someone's behaviors.

Socrates and Plato: the good consequences of being moral are not what make actions good; rather, actions have good consequences because they are good in themselves (and ought to be done for that reason alone). Immorality is due to ignorance of the good.
http://people.tamu.edu/~sdaniel/Notes/ethics1a.html

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants,

Have you found a reason for this?
Do you think that everyone feels the same?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Residual problems: none in the medium term, if segregation is complete and permanent.

You seem to assume that people's mind, character, and behaviors can not be changed.

[alancalverd]

Why bother? The areas of the globe where criminals operate are already overpopulated (parasites need hosts!) so recycling them as reformed humans is not required.

The simplest way to recycle organic rubbish is to segregate it into a compost heap and let nature reduce it to sterile dust. I am always in favor of a "do nothing" approach if it achieves the desired result, and in this case it is certainly the quickest procedure and guaranteed effective.

[alancalverd]

I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants,

Have you found a reason for this?
Do you think that everyone feels the same?

It's something to do with animal evolution. All those species that can, choose or modify their environment so that their offspring can flourish. Being a fairly recent and very fragile species with exceptionally long maturation and neoteny, I think the instinct is quite deeply rooted in most humans.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

It's something to do with animal evolution. All those species that can, choose or modify their environment so that their offspring can flourish. Being a fairly recent and very fragile species with exceptionally long maturation and neoteny, I think the instinct is quite deeply rooted in most humans.

Prehistoric humans were limited in their capacity to coordinate efforts involving large numbers of individuals, just like other mammals. Social insects seem to do the job better.
That changed with the invention of written language. Modern humans can coordinate to achieve common goals of billions individuals.
Inclusion of direct descendants may involve a dozen or so individuals. Tribal inclusion can involve hundreds to thousands. National inclusion can involve millions.
Instinct based decisions tend to be shortsighted, and have a great chance of being stuck in local minima.