[CliveG]

The Jews do not believe in an afterlife

All of us? Really? It's mentioned in the Talmud. Get your facts straight, if you want to be taken seriously..

I am glad you posted.

The problem I have is trying to get the basics of Judaism straight. There were and are many sects and the beliefs are wide-ranging. One does not hear of the rewards of heaven for those Jews who have lived a good life according to the Biblical laws. Not only that, my limited experience when a couple of older Jews died was that they clung fiercely to life because there was nothing after death for them. In one case, an old man lay like a skeleton for six months with the doctors saying he had only a few days left. I said he was afraid to die. Then one day I said to others "He has given up. He will die soon." They said they saw no difference but the next day he died.

I went to a Jewish site on basics: (Lost the reference) Contrary to popular belief, Judaism does believe in an afterlife, but it is not the primary focus of our religion and there is a lot of room for personal opinion about the nature of the afterlife.

Which I think sums it up.

Other sites show the variety of views but I stick to my statement that in general Jews fear death because they do not believe they will have an afterlife. The resurrection of the dead is not an afterlife as most people know it.
So I looked it up:
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.

I think this is a fudge for public consumption and so are the following on Wiki

Here are some issues indicating that Judaism has a wide ranging set of beliefs and one can cherry pick to suit almost any viewpoint. Here is extinction of the soul and reincarnation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife#Judaism
...Although there is no reference to reincarnation in the Talmud or any prior writings, according to rabbis such as Avraham Arieh Trugman, reincarnation is recognized as being part and parcel of Jewish tradition.

...According to the Talmud, extinction of the soul is reserved for a far smaller group of malicious and evil leaders, either whose very evil deeds go way beyond norms, or who lead large groups of people to utmost evil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology
...In the late Second Temple period, beliefs about the ultimate fate of the individual were diverse. The Essenes believed in the immortality of the soul, but the Pharisees and Sadducees, apparently, did not.

...Conservative Judaism both affirms belief in the world beyond (as referenced in the Amidah and Maimonides' Thirteen Precepts of Faith) while recognizing that human understanding is limited and we cannot know exactly what the world beyond consists of. Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism affirm belief in the afterlife, though they downplay the theological implications in favor of emphasizing the importance of the "here and now," as opposed to reward and punishment.

Well, there you go. Once more, I see that people will put aside religious teachings (all religions and sects mostly) if it gets in the way of getting ahead in life.

We have a sect called the Zionist Christian Church. They do not drink or smoke and do not eat pork. They are in high demand as domestic workers because they do not steal. It is well-known. Some bad ones try to say they are ZCC because they know it will get them work. They practice their religion daily and believe in Heaven.

[CliveG]

You simply say "Gee. God does not want scientific absolute proof of his existence, but is he is prepared to tell people how the spirit world works,

God is part of the "spirit world".
 If the "spirit world" worked then it would prove His existence.
So, you have contradicted yourself there.
I suggest you stop trying.

God controls the spirit world. He does not want absolute proof of its existence. So everything is decided by an intelligence as to whether it will be allowed or not. Proof = not allowed. Hints = we can allow those. I think the contradiction is in your reasoning and not what I have been stating over and over again.

It is logical - if God wanted humankind to be certain of his existence his face would appear to all in the sky and he would demonstrate his powers by making us all float a few feet above the ground and then brand us and produce videos so that we would not argue about what happened.

On the other hand, if God did not exist, then there are a few logical problems. Humankind's propensity for mystic events, and a need to explain the emergence of intelligence as well as the emergence of the laws of physics that are truly remarkable in their beauty and simplicity. Do you not see that your best explanation for some of the events I have experienced is that you do not believe me in the slightest? That is weak.

[CliveG]

I was sitting on our porch overlooking our pool while the sun went down. A spotted eagle owl has taken to sitting in the tree there. My wife's daughter-in-law said that it was an omen of death. I like it and it hangs about and goes from tree to roof to stump and so on.

I am worried that my wife has not sold the house next to the tower. We had a sale dependent on a mortgage but they pulled out. This corona virus has some nasty characteristics. Cases are spreading outside China and the death rate outside China is higher. The incubation is longer and is not easy to trace. Countries are beginning to close their borders. Even our local China mall is bare of customers. Now Bernie is surging.

The USA could get hit badly by not having a manufacturing base. The time could very well be right for socialism in the USA. The elite could take a beating and society could become more fair. That is what God wants anyway. People are mildly scared but I do not think they realize just how bad it could get in this age of globalization.

In SA we might not get spare parts for our electrical grid which is failing badly. We are having load shedding nearly every day for 4 hours and we are told it will stay that way for a year. The smelters have already shut down permanently. The effects of over-population are quite apparent to any student with any knowledge. Strife, poverty, societal breakdown as people compete for resources - and the rich get richer to compensate and pretend they can stay above the fray.

I need oxygen at night and that is when they are shutting off the power. 8pm to 12midnight, or 12 midnight to 4 am, or 4 am to 8am. And we have unplanned frequent breakdowns nearly all at night. I cannot run the generator at night (too noisy) and it draws too much power for my battery backups. So I am not in a good place - hence the pessimism.

[Bored chemist]

Do you not see that your best explanation for some of the events I have experienced is that you do not believe me in the slightest?

No
It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I believe you are mistaken.
So, what you write off as a weak explanation is just a straw man you made up.

Stop doing that. It makes you look silly.

if God did not exist, then there are a few logical problems. Humankind's propensity for mystic events, and a need to explain the emergence of intelligence as well as the emergence of the laws of physics that are truly remarkable in their beauty and simplicity.

OK, lets have another look at those.
Taking the third point last
It's much easier to get a few simple  laws to arise spontaneously than to have anything as complicated as a God.

The emergence of intelligence is entirely consistent with evolution.
We even have an indication of what the intermediate steps are like. Man is brighter than the other apes.
They are generally brighter than, for example, dogs and they, in turn, are brighter than worms. The worms are cleverer than plants, and so on.

So there's no mystery there- just you refusing to understand.

And it's true that people experience mystical things.
We can reproduce that in the lab
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

And our research shows that it is more common in people with a known brain malfunction.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-religious-experiences.html

So, the actual evidence suggests that "mysticism"  is just another of those interesting features we have found in the brain like confirmation bias and the placebo effect.

So, there are no actual problems there; once again, it's just you not accepting the evidence.

God controls the spirit world. He does not want absolute proof of its existence. So everything is decided by an intelligence as to whether it will be allowed or not. Proof = not allowed. Hints = we can allow those. I think the contradiction is in your reasoning and not what I have been stating over and over again

And enough hints would (at any given level of significance) be interpreted as proof. So, if there was really proof of spirits it would be proof of God which you say is forbidden.
What you state " over and over again" misses this.
If you are right about proving that there are spirits then you have proved there's a God.

But you can't.
And, of course, you haven't.

[alancalverd]

The problem I have is trying to get the basics of Judaism straight.

It's none of your business, unless you were born into it. We don't evangelise or accept converts easily, so why bother?
The strength of the family is a "pick and mix" tradition. Two Jews = three opinions, but still two Jews. Belief is stultifying - argument is stimulating.

[CliveG]

Do you not see that your best explanation for some of the events I have experienced is that you do not believe me in the slightest?

No
It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I believe you are mistaken.
So, what you write off as a weak explanation is just a straw man you made up.

Stop doing that. It makes you look silly.

if God did not exist, then there are a few logical problems. Humankind's propensity for mystic events, and a need to explain the emergence of intelligence as well as the emergence of the laws of physics that are truly remarkable in their beauty and simplicity.

OK, lets have another look at those.
Taking the third point last
It's much easier to get a few simple  laws to arise spontaneously than to have anything as complicated as a God.

The emergence of intelligence is entirely consistent with evolution.
We even have an indication of what the intermediate steps are like. Man is brighter than the other apes.
They are generally brighter than, for example, dogs and they, in turn, are brighter than worms. The worms are cleverer than plants, and so on.

So there's no mystery there- just you refusing to understand.

And it's true that people experience mystical things.
We can reproduce that in the lab
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

And our research shows that it is more common in people with a known brain malfunction.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-religious-experiences.html

So, the actual evidence suggests that "mysticism"  is just another of those interesting features we have found in the brain like confirmation bias and the placebo effect.

So, there are no actual problems there; once again, it's just you not accepting the evidence.

God controls the spirit world. He does not want absolute proof of its existence. So everything is decided by an intelligence as to whether it will be allowed or not. Proof = not allowed. Hints = we can allow those. I think the contradiction is in your reasoning and not what I have been stating over and over again

And enough hints would (at any given level of significance) be interpreted as proof. So, if there was really proof of spirits it would be proof of God which you say is forbidden.
What you state " over and over again" misses this.
If you are right about proving that there are spirits then you have proved there's a God.

But you can't.
And, of course, you haven't.

Mistaken? I get a shock, not a "feeling" that the biker going past me in an ordinary way on an ordinary day will die just ahead. I slow down so as to not ride over him. He dies, and not because of an accident. How on earth can I be mistaken?
The exhibitionist who got upset with me. How on earth (or in hell) did that happen?
The "check the time" experiment, and the hypnosis experiments. How were they mistakes?

Spontaneous arising of simple laws? From what? The laws are simple but are extremely powerful. With regard to emergence and evolution, you need to go back to your first moment of "spontaneous emergence" . Why would they have the fine tuned properties that would cause dumb molecules to order themselves? Do a bit of reading to check how a cell manufactures a protein using proteins and enzymes and then assembles all those proteins. It is not just amazing it is mind-boggling. One can reduce any mind-blowing process or event to a simple "It happened, there is nothing mystical about it." Sure!

God Helmet: The foundations of his theory have been criticized in the scientific press. Anecdotal reports by journalists, academics and documentarists have been mixed and several effects reported by Persinger have not yet been independently replicated. It seems to me that you are reading and believe woo-science or fake-science. I can assure you that I never "felt a presence" or "felt mystical" at times I had events. They were not "flashes". There is no comparison what-so-ever. But you want to believe it and deny what I am telling you.

Of course if one messes with the brain function by external stimulation one is going to get all sorts of brain malfunctions. The key is how "intelligent" and "informative" are those malfunctions. I would say that a person could get memories stimulated, voices or music, or even see people. I have been saying that God and spirit do the same by subtly stimulating the brain and thereby causing communication. What is the difference between random radio signals from space and communication by alien life? Seems you would not know the answer so I will tell you. It is the "intelligence" contained in the information.

I fully accept confirmation bias and placebo effects in people. But because I am aware of them, I know when to discount them. I am one of those people who does not experience pareidolia. People tell me they see various patterns and I say I see a random collection of clouds, or sand or tree or whatever. If they point out the eyes, ears and nose and mouth I can say I see how the features can be interpreted. I have a superb memory down to details, so I remember events properly. I am amazed at how other people nearly always get a shared memory wrong, so I can understand that "ordinary" people can misinterpret some things. I am not in that ordinary percentile - not bragging, just a statement of fact.

You are right about the hints and proof. Fine tuning, the emergence of intelligence, the ability of some people to communicate with spirit and tell the future, mental telepathy, and a logical hypothesis where science has none. Jesus and Muhammad were prophets with amazing gifts and explanations and communications with God. Jesus foretold his own death and Muhammad foretold a key event (the camel bet) and Joan of Arc was inspired and foretold the outcome of a battle. Those events were not just once off either - these people made a huge impact.

But you deny the conclusion that the spirit world exists and hence God. Your choice - but you cannot disprove that I am experiencing the spirit world.

[CliveG]

The problem I have is trying to get the basics of Judaism straight.

It's none of your business, unless you were born into it. We don't evangelise or accept converts easily, so why bother?
The strength of the family is a "pick and mix" tradition. Two Jews = three opinions, but still two Jews. Belief is stultifying - argument is stimulating.

It is my business. The power and influence of the Jewish communities in the world is undeniable. Their motivations and behavior are critical to the world survival. Reading the history it is easy to see that there was no central leadership and that there were many interpretations of the scriptures and many interpretations of the early writings.

Added to that was a need for secrecy because of antisemitism (and we all know the standard definition). In some cases there have been active disinformation to put a PR spin on the religion, but most Jews knew what was spin and how the religion operates.

But there is a price to pay - paranoia. While some people ARE actually out to harm Jews in general and some in particular, the worry is a mental burden and causes psychological problems. Not for nothing is psychiatry a Jewish specialty with many Jewish patients - but even super-intelligent people can have a distortion and bias that avoids a proper fix of certain problems.

Instead of taking offense at what I say, you should look at it as well-meaning advice for Jews in general and not an antisemitic criticism.

[Bored chemist]

Mistaken? I get a shock, not a "feeling" that the biker going past me in an ordinary way on an ordinary day will die just ahead. I slow down so as to not ride over him. He dies, and not because of an accident. How on earth can I be mistaken?

You are mistaken in thinking that it is anything but coincidence.

The exhibitionist who got upset with me. How on earth (or in hell) did that happen?

I already answered that.
Have you forgotten?

and so on.

I fully accept confirmation bias and placebo effects in people. But because I am aware of them, I know when to discount them.

You plainly do not.

Jesus foretold his own death

It's a miracle!
A man who protested against the Romans and their rules foretold his own death (alongside presumably all the others who protested).

And yet you think that's some sort of proof of divinity when it's just a statement of the obvious.

[Bored chemist]

What is the difference between random radio signals from space and communication by alien life? Seems you would not know the answer so I will tell you. It is the "intelligence" contained in the information.

How can you possibly think I don't know that?

On the other hand, without the mechanism to decode it, it may (like spread signal communication) be indistinguishable from noise.
That's the point.

[CliveG]

Mistaken? I get a shock, not a "feeling" that the biker going past me in an ordinary way on an ordinary day will die just ahead. I slow down so as to not ride over him. He dies, and not because of an accident. How on earth can I be mistaken?

You are mistaken in thinking that it is anything but coincidence.

The exhibitionist who got upset with me. How on earth (or in hell) did that happen?

I already answered that.
Have you forgotten?

and so on.

I fully accept confirmation bias and placebo effects in people. But because I am aware of them, I know when to discount them.

You plainly do not.

Jesus foretold his own death

It's a miracle!
A man who protested against the Romans and their rules foretold his own death (alongside presumably all the others who protested).

And yet you think that's some sort of proof of divinity when it's just a statement of the obvious.

The atheist's guide to refuting examples of psychic events
1) Coincidence
2) Law of large numbers
3) Pareidolia
4) Confirmation bias
5) Placebo
6) Mistake
7) Hallucination
8 ) Brain malfunction
9) Other (for good measure)

and lastly a combination of all of the above just to be sure.

As a high performing individual who can evaluate his own (yes) possible non-psychic explanations I can tell that none of the above applied in many cases. The ones that may apply such as dreams or hallucinations gave information that fit like the pieces of a puzzle. It was as if I was being given each piece to work out with accompanying hints such as the coincidences (which God uses to remain hidden) of relevant texts and messages from various media, and the serendipity of a string of events.

The information gained was clear and understandable, although it took some years to know how it fit the other pieces. God did not sit me down and give me an iPhone with an App on it containing instructions. On the one occasion that I felt God spoke with me (no voices, but almost as if I was having a conversation with myself except different) it was clear English without an accent. And coincidentally there was not a person or animal in sight and no cars, buses or boats moving for about 20 minutes in a normally busy tourist town while I sat in front of the tourist information center.

[CliveG]

What is the difference between random radio signals from space and communication by alien life? Seems you would not know the answer so I will tell you. It is the "intelligence" contained in the information.

How can you possibly think I don't know that?

On the other hand, without the mechanism to decode it, it may (like spread signal communication) be indistinguishable from noise.
That's the point.

Sometimes I feel when debating you that I am speaking to someone whose first and second languages are not English (tongue in cheek). This happens when instructing workers from tribal areas.

The mechanism to decode the psychic signals are part of the structure of our brains. Let me maybe rephrase that - some of us have a part of the structure of our brains as the mechanism. I was blessed with a fully functional high performing brain, although it took a while to learn to be able to use it properly. The social functions and figuring out the deviousness of some people (like some of my first wives) took quite a while. Sometimes I was like a child trying to drive a racing car. I did not understand sarcasm or envy until later in life.

[Bored chemist]

I was blessed with a fully functional high performing brain, although it took a while to learn to be able to use it properly.

Or you are deluded.
And your problem is that, from everyone else's point of view, it looks like the latter.

[alancalverd]

Added to that was a need for secrecy

Secrecy? There are plenty of books on Judaism, about half written by people who knew what they were talking about.

[But there is a price to pay - paranoia.

We do indeed suffer from the paranoia that demagogues induce in others, but the most balanced and rational people I have met were survivors of Nazi and Communist antisemitism.

[CliveG]

I was blessed with a fully functional high performing brain, although it took a while to learn to be able to use it properly.

Or you are deluded.
And your problem is that, from everyone else's point of view, it looks like the latter.

What are we talking about. Here is a definition.
https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/delusional-disorder#1
Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness called a psychotic disorder. People who have it can’t tell what’s real from what is imagined.

Interesting. You are putting the cart before the horse again. And you do not realize how often you do it. You assume the non-existence of God in order to do proofs of non-existence - just done in a vague and roundabout way. Here you first define my experiences as imaginary and then you apply the definition.

My experiences are as real as anything you have experienced. They are also rational in that they offer personal proof of a Prime Cause. The rationality goes further because all the experiences explain not only our existence and consciousness but also the many experiences of other people who have psychic or mystical experiences. The rationality explains how to differentiate the frauds and fakes from the real deal.

You could be called delusional for imagining that you can explain away any possible supernatural experience. You cannot. You simply apply a variety of labels in the hope that like-minded people cheer you on. You denialism borders on being delusional.

Just look at the current US situation regarding the elections. Probably 80% of the population could be labelled delusional by professionals for beliefs not based on reality.

[Bored chemist]

Here is a definition.
https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/delusional-disorder#1

Yes, but it's not a definition of the right word.
This is
deluded
/dɪˈluːdɪd/

adjective
believing something that is not true.
"the poor deluded creature"

And yet, you thought it was.
So you believed something that isn't true.

You poor deluded creature.

They are also rational in that they offer personal proof of a Prime Cause.

That's not even true in the context of your beliefs.
How can you be sure that it's the same "God"?
The one that made the Universe might have died a million years ago and we are now under the supervision of His dimwitted Son.

[CliveG]

Here is a definition.
https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/delusional-disorder#1

Yes, but it's not a definition of the right word.
This is
deluded
/dɪˈluːdɪd/

adjective
believing something that is not true.
"the poor deluded creature"

And yet, you thought it was.
So you believed something that isn't true.

You poor deluded creature.

Your assumption is that I believe something that is not true. Imagined is assumed to be false although it could be unknown but true.

Either definition requires that you start with the assumption that my hypothesis is "not true" ie "falsely imagined".

So now I challenge you to prove me wrong. You can use inconsistency as one method but not lack of evidence on your part. Just because you have never seen a black swan does not mean they do not exist. You can also use a scientific proof of the Prime Cause to show that your Prime Cause is correct therefore mine must be false.

I am going to post a few examples of my logic and analytic ability to illustrate that I am capable of
1) creative thought
2) analytic ability
3) clear memory and
4) seem to have a "sixth sense."

"Poor deluded creature" is a poor description of what you think I am based on your false rationale and false imagery. You are engaging in mud-slinging, so I will counter that.

[CliveG]

Quote from: CliveG on Yesterday at 09:08:46

    They are also rational in that they offer personal proof of a Prime Cause.

That's not even true in the context of your beliefs.
How can you be sure that it's the same "God"?
The one that made the Universe might have died a million years ago and we are now under the supervision of His dimwitted Son.

You are engaging in anthropomorphic imagery and an illogical train of thought. Equating your imaginings to my solid experiences is not even vaguely equivalent. To have a son, the God would have to have a wife and be capable of procreation, not to mention dying thereafter.

[CliveG]

Here is one example of a possible "sixth sense". You could say I am unusually observant - which would also boost my credentials. Note that I accept that I could somehow have seen the hidden watch.

On a hike our group were camped by a field. I noticed a group of about ten hikers searching in the field as a distressed woman guided them. After about 45 minutes, they gave up one by one. The woman was left crying with her husband. I walked up and said I have a talent for finding missing things and have done so a number of times. I asked her what she lost and where she thinks she lost it. It was the center of the search area. I walked around for a couple of minutes and then bent down and moved a clump of grass to the side. There was the missing watch - an expensive heirloom. She ran at me and jumped onto me to hug me. I thought I was being grabbed by an octopus she held so tight.

So when I claim to be able to do something I can often deliver.

[CliveG]

Another example of a "sixth sense". Although you could claim I am unusually analytical and remarkably stubborn.

I was about 25 years old and had the position of commissioning engineer. After construction of large electrical installations I would do a thorough check of everything and then power up and run tests. Distribution substations, power line series capacitor banks, power shunt capacitor banks, large mine hoist motors, smelting transformers, all the control circuits and so on. I never missed a fault because I was so thorough.

I tested a large smelting transformer and told them that the meggar test failed. They told me the capacitance of long cables to the distribution yard were stopping the meter from building up the voltage. I did not agree and would not sign off. They called my boss who called me and said if they wanted to go ahead it was their problem but I had to sign off which I would not do. The next week there was a meeting of eleven top engineers and my manager. They were seriously annoyed because they had lost a week of production. They had arranged to take off the cables (not so easy with one square inch of copper and insulation for 11,000 volts). The transformer tested fine. The cables did not. The cable test people were there and said they wold not retest because they had done so two weeks ago despite my meggar on the cable showing zero.

I was the one who had to power up. We drove the distance to the distribution yard. I told them my gut feeling was very bad and I did not recommend powering up. The resulting explosion in the yard caused flame and smoke and the fault caused a large portion of South Africa to black out. I had tested the yard six months earlier. The cable were connected to the equipment there. Six months without the warming of flowing electrical current had caused the equipment to absorb moisture and cause a short circuit. Our sales manager was very happy because they had bought the cheaper competitors current transformers.

[CliveG]

An example of serendipity and an ability to visualize processes on an atomic scale. Is a machine (if we are such) capable of such creativity?

Plastic films and parts are treated with a flame to convert the surface to get a polar radical (an OH) so that they can be painted with a logo or a label glued on. It can be done with high voltage corona discharge, but that is not only dangerous to workers, it can punch through a tiny inclusion of dirt.

The problem was that the flame had to have just the right mixture of gas and air. Not too rich and not too lean. When tons of milk carton stock is being produced at a time it was costly and a disaster to find it had not worked. Flow meters were tried but failed because the natural gas composition varied and the air varied according to how much humidity there was. I was at a convention of some sort and they were demonstrating the emission of a car using a high temperature oxygen sensor. I got a sample and then had to find a way to use it and get a signal to drive a control motor connected to the gas mixing. It worked. We did not patent it because we said the competitors would not understand the concept (I was an electrical/electronics engineer working in the field of gas burners) and we would not have it copied. It was called a plasma analyzer. It was highly successful and made a lot of money for the company. I gave a conference paper to the paper making industry.

Not delusional and definitely not poor at that time. I was paid more than the top engineering manager at GM. My management skills were also good. I built a team by hiring and firing. I recommended and supervised the installation of a network of PCs where at a time that IBM had just brought out their first PC. The network and the custom Foxpro accounting program replaced the IBM main frame. This was despite another CEO telling the owner of the company (while I was there) that my ideas were rubbish and I would sink the company with my wild schemes. Delusional?