0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
This force can do one of three things that i can think of1. Rotate the wheel against the surface it is on, pushing the bike forward.2. Rotate the frame upwards about the pivot of the wheel, so as the bike pulls a wheelie. 3. push the rider backwards off the pedals
If all of the weight of the bike is forward of the pivot ie the axle of the back wheel, the bike will inevitably fail to rotate without intentional alteration as the force generator is sufficiently forward of the pivot meaning any rotation of the frame of the bike is countered by the very thing that could cause rotation.
This also means that aside from the 9.81 ms acceleration that the riders leg muscles work againt to create forward motion, there is also an acceleration the rider must work against just to keep level via pushing the frame downwards.
If both wheels where at the same altitude ie on the flat and level., how would you calculate the efficiency of forward motion ?
Further more the rider must remain on the pedals via holding onto the handle bars, not only expending energy in the arm muscles, the force of the arm muscles must be countered by the leg muscles
Quote from: Petrochemicals on 03/08/2019 02:11:36This force can do one of three things that i can think of1. Rotate the wheel against the surface it is on, pushing the bike forward.2. Rotate the frame upwards about the pivot of the wheel, so as the bike pulls a wheelie. 3. push the rider backwards off the pedalsYou forgot 4: 'burn rubber', where the friction between the wheel and the road is lower than the force applied.
QuoteIf all of the weight of the bike is forward of the pivot ie the axle of the back wheel, the bike will inevitably fail to rotate without intentional alteration as the force generator is sufficiently forward of the pivot meaning any rotation of the frame of the bike is countered by the very thing that could cause rotation.Some fairly simple trigonometry will determine the force necessary to do the wheelie.Take the center of gravity of the bike/person object. Draw a line from there to where the rear wheel contacts the road, and another line straight down. That forms an angle θ. The max acceleration on the bike is tan(θ) * gravity acceleration. So tan(θ)*9.8m/sec²Any acceleration above that and you get the wheelie.
QuoteThis also means that aside from the 9.81 ms acceleration that the riders leg muscles work againt to create forward motion, there is also an acceleration the rider must work against just to keep level via pushing the frame downwards.Unless a wheelie is being done, no effort is needed to counter this since no acceleration in this direction occurs. F=ma. Zero a, zero F necessary to keep it that way. Yes, if a wheelie is being done, some energy is lost to the rise in the center of gravity and less to forward acceleration.
QuoteIf both wheels where at the same altitude ie on the flat and level., how would you calculate the efficiency of forward motion ?100% in theory, unless the wheel skids (the burn rubber option). In practice, once it starts moving, efficiency drops off due to air friction, and the bike itself is not a frictionless thing. Some energy is lost in the bearings and chain and such.
QuoteFurther more the rider must remain on the pedals via holding onto the handle bars, not only expending energy in the arm muscles, the force of the arm muscles must be countered by the leg musclesNone of these contribute to (or detract from) net thrust. Are we counting calories expended now by a body doing isometric activities? That makes it a biological question, not one of standard Newtonian mechanics. Yes, it takes energy for a human to sit on a bicycle and going nowhere.
Quote from: HalcSome fairly simple trigonometry will determine the force necessary to do the wheelie.Take the center of gravity of the bike/person object. Draw a line from there to where the rear wheel contacts the road, and another line straight down. That forms an angle θ. The max acceleration on the bike is tan(θ) * gravity acceleration. So tan(θ)*9.8m/sec²Any acceleration above that and you get the wheelie.exactly the point i am thinking about...no energy is defacto NEEDED, yet like your last point some is expended in countering the wheelie in my opinion.
Some fairly simple trigonometry will determine the force necessary to do the wheelie.Take the center of gravity of the bike/person object. Draw a line from there to where the rear wheel contacts the road, and another line straight down. That forms an angle θ. The max acceleration on the bike is tan(θ) * gravity acceleration. So tan(θ)*9.8m/sec²Any acceleration above that and you get the wheelie.
The leg not only pushes the pedal down, it also pushes the bike down counter to the wheelie.
The rider is at 9.81
The point is that the leg is exerting a force greater than standard due to the bike wishing to rise up ?
In the above video is a demonstration of what you say and i summise.
On a bike the leg could never exert a greater force to rise against itself as the leg is powering against gravity in the first place, simply impossible
Yep, but as in the body working agaist gravity to power itself, holding onto the handlebard means the force of the arms is countered by the legs, ie double the energy for the same forward motion as compared to working against gravity ?
I considered the bike and rider to be a single unit, and any internal forces within that unit (leg on pedal, hands on handlebar) have zero effect on the max acceleration the whole thing can do without doing the wheelie.It doesn't counter the wheelie at all since any force downward is balanced by an upward force on the person. The two cancel out. If the force is too much on the petals and the guy isn't strapped to his seat or the pedals, the sure, the guy is ejected vertically from the bicycle.
Doesn't matter. That force is cancelled. What matters is the force on the road and where the center of gravity of the whole thing is. If the rider wants to accelerate harder without the wheelie, he leans forward to drive that center of mass forward and increase θ.
]Notice that the wheelie dragster loses the race. He had to back off the power to regain control, and that backing off kills it. Notice also that the dragster could put its center of gravity far further forward, but they design it with the engine and driver all the way in the back. Doing a wheelie will lose a race, but almost doing one will win it.
As a bicycle rider, I disagree with this. I frequently exert more force on the pedal than my own weight if accelerating hard. This can be countered by pulling up on the handlebars (which has no effect on the wheelie) or by pulling up with the other leg. I'm rarely in a gear where doing this removes functional weight from the front wheel. The only times I really need to shift that center of gravity is when braking hard.Pedaling hard produces torque, and that torque (forward action on the bike, backward reaction on the rider) needs to be internally balanced somewhere, but the torque of pedaling does not contribute to the wheelie except in an inertial sense. A dragster could in theory do a wheelie on ice and/or without even being in gear, similar to the way an old 409 could be rocked to the side by revving the engine. No, I've never seen a vehicle actually get its wheels off the ground in that manner, but it could be done.
The arms are doing an isometric activity, and thus perform no work. No extra energy is needed for it. The work can be measured as force * distance. You can measure that where the tire meets the road (WT) or where the leg moves the pedal (WP) and ignoring friction and such, WT is equal to WP, making the process up to 100% efficient.
Quote from: HalcI considered the bike and rider to be a single unit, and any internal forces within that unit (leg on pedal, hands on handlebar) have zero effect on the max acceleration the whole thing can do without doing the wheelie. yep but the efficiency is altered, push your hands together, net zero acceleration, balanced force, lots of energy used ?
I considered the bike and rider to be a single unit, and any internal forces within that unit (leg on pedal, hands on handlebar) have zero effect on the max acceleration the whole thing can do without doing the wheelie.
Quote from: HalcNotice also that the dragster could put its center of gravity far further forward, but they design it with the engine and driver all the way in the back. Doing a wheelie will lose a race, but almost doing one will win it.the weight is kept as close as possible to the right side of the drice wheel, more useful friction.
Notice also that the dragster could put its center of gravity far further forward, but they design it with the engine and driver all the way in the back. Doing a wheelie will lose a race, but almost doing one will win it.
Quote from: HalcAs a bicycle rider, I disagree with this. I frequently exert more force on the pedal than my own weight if accelerating hard. This can be countered by pulling up on the handlebars (which has no effect on the wheelie) or by pulling up with the other leg. you can only exert the force of standing on the pedals
As a bicycle rider, I disagree with this. I frequently exert more force on the pedal than my own weight if accelerating hard. This can be countered by pulling up on the handlebars (which has no effect on the wheelie) or by pulling up with the other leg.
you cannot climb to a higher potential energy position than the raised top pedal
the leg itself could never cause a wheelie
, as it is pushing downwards yet it is the force needed to cause the rotation, it would always be pushing against itself.
as he could only input the energy of his own weight
Energy is expended 8n a contraction
Quote from: Petrochemicals on 05/08/2019 05:43:31Quote from: HalcI considered the bike and rider to be a single unit, and any internal forces within that unit (leg on pedal, hands on handlebar) have zero effect on the max acceleration the whole thing can do without doing the wheelie. yep but the efficiency is altered, push your hands together, net zero acceleration, balanced force, lots of energy used ?No energy used. You're confusing force with energy. I can do the same with a C clamp indefinitely without needing to replace the batteries now and then. If you count the fact that the human body burns calories doing nothing but sitting still, then yes, the human-powered bike or clamp can't be 100% efficient. I was only counting the work done by the human compared to the work done by the bicycle/human unit. Chemical engines are typically inefficient. A steam locomotive is less that 10% efficient for instance, but that didn't stop them from being used.
The maximum force you can exert on a conventional pedal is your own weight
The directions of the chain and motion of the pedals mean that the bike is driven down by the leg, driven down by the weight of gravity on the mass
The rider is positioned near the rear wheel I IMAGINE, to minimise the lever force of the riders weigh on the front wheel driving the front wheel down, rather than friction advantage for the rear wheel, as tye rider is very unlikely to provide enough force to spin the rear drive wheel.
The foot pushes down, the bike accelerates, the mass seeks to remain stationary and this forces a partial lifting of weight on the front wheel.
The rotation of the framedown toward the front wheel is countered by the mass of the bike wishing to remain stationary
The foot pushing against the pedal is supposed to be in a neutral balance, only accounting for forward motion.
Thing that strikes me is the foot is providing the counter rotation to the riders unstable position.
1)The closer a bike rider gets to verticaly above the rear wheel (when your going up hill) the worse the instability, thus the leg has to work even harder to push the bike down
this seems the worst case senario as going up hill is the hardest motion and the greatest ratio of energy input to bike kinetic energy
3) as the like of gravity is no longer perpendicular to the motion when going up hill , more of the energy is put into rotation.
The rotation of the bike into the floor is a thing i am not sure about. Is this inefficient or not ?
Forks must be set at an angle for a reason.
If you push a wheel into the floor at an angle less than perpendicular to the motion of travel, what would be the efficiency of this ?
There is also the fact that the leg is connected to the unstable rider, thus the leg is working against itself.
The effort that your legs exert on the pedals is transferred to the back wheel by the chain as you ride a bicycle. This force has the ability to do one of three things.1. Push the bike ahead by rotating the wheel against the surface it is on.2. Pull the bike into a wheelie by rotating the frame upwards around the pivot of the wheel. This may be seen in the practice of pulling a wheelie, which involves lifting the handle bars slightly and rotating the rear wheel with the pedals, resulting in a simultaneous forward and upward push, resulting in a wheelie. In such a case, the rider's weight may cross the pivot axle of the back wheel.