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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  4. What is life?
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What is life?

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Offline cleanair

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #20 on: 28/10/2019 21:57:15 »
Quote from: Hayseed on 28/10/2019 00:03:17
It's been a valid statement so far.  Does anyone know how the cosmos started?  Do you believe that we can "discover" how it was started?  How are you going to do that?

Life is part of the present. Only when it is considered that life started at some point in time, causality could be an argument to state that the origin of life cannot be determined. However, as it appears, there is no basis for such an assumption. Therefore, there is either a pending requirement to determine the origin of life or to explain why it cannot be determined.
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Offline Hayseed

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #21 on: 29/10/2019 02:00:22 »
Being, that we don't know everything......we have to assume.  The question is, when we do assume, should we assume a positive, because we can't find a negative..........or should we assume negative, because we can't find a positive?

I prefer to assume negative......because it limits the possibilities.

I believe that there is only one true solution......or understanding.   The solution can appear different from different viewpoints, but there is only one dynamic that can express those viewpoints.
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Offline cleanair

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #22 on: 31/10/2019 21:16:03 »
It would be like gambling with a similar chance of being correct as with tossing a coin.

If an answer is not known, it may be best to acknowledge it and try to find new methods for discovering an answer.
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Offline Etty

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #23 on: 02/11/2019 13:05:09 »
Quote from: MarianaM on 14/10/2019 11:34:10
Dhruv asks...

What is life in biological terms? What parameters are considered to declare a thing as living?

What's the answer?

Life is none biological , biological material is just a conduit for the real you which is an energy entity .
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #24 on: 05/11/2019 01:19:52 »
Life is a fuzzy concept. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_concept
A lot of things can be classified as living or not living, but the boundary itself can appear blurry.

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Life is a characteristic that distinguishes physical entities that have biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (they have died), or because they never had such functions and are classified as inanimate. Various forms of life exist, such as plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea, and bacteria. The criteria can at times be ambiguous and may or may not define viruses, viroids, or potential synthetic life as "living". Biology is the science concerned with the study of life.

There is currently no consensus regarding the definition of life. One popular definition is that organisms are open systems that maintain homeostasis, are composed of cells, have a life cycle, undergo metabolism, can grow, adapt to their environment, respond to stimuli, reproduce and evolve. However, several other definitions have been proposed, and there are some borderline cases of life, such as viruses or viroids.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #25 on: 27/11/2019 01:19:57 »
To make productive discussion possible, we need to have useful definition of life. That definition must be broad enough to include (almost) all systems that commonly regarded as life, but at the same time specific enough to exclude (almost) all systems that commonly regarded as non-life. In other word, it must be balanced to minimize false negative as well as false positive cases.
I think the popular definition in Wikipedia above is too narrow, hence has high probability to get false negative case, such as the mule that was dicussed above. I prefer a broader definition than this, like "having the ability to duplicate genetic material with minimum support". I leave the definition of "minimum support" here to discuss.
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Offline Iwonda

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #26 on: 05/12/2019 06:57:37 »
Quote from: MarianaM on 14/10/2019 11:34:10
Dhruv asks...

What is life in biological terms? What parameters are considered to declare a thing as living?

What's the answer?
Do not waste your life trying to measure it.
Enjoy your life and learn to treasure it.
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Offline cleanair

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #27 on: 06/12/2019 21:48:52 »
Quote from: Iwonda on 05/12/2019 06:57:37
Do not waste your life trying to measure it.
Enjoy your life and learn to treasure it.

On what basis would the indicated value of life be defined? It occurs that your statement could be seen as an argument for choosing religion over science.

Enjoying life and learning to treasure it can be seen as a plausible advice for a valuable result in life (on an individual level) but the question remains why one should simply accept the origin of life as inexplicable.

When the origin of life is accepted as inexplicable, one could just as well consider life meaningless or an effect of pure randomness. With such a perception, the multi-trillion USD synthetic biology revolution in which humans attempt to top-down control the fabric of nature, would be justifiable. From the resulting mental perception there would be no logical argument against it. Life would not be considered a factor that requires consideration (other than that on individual or corporate level).

In my opinion it may be best to not factor out the origin of life.
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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #28 on: 16/12/2019 02:33:29 »
This finding may blur distinction between life and non-life even further.
Quote
In most biology textbooks, there’s a clear separation between the three domains of cellular organisms – Bacteria, Archaea, and Eukaryotes – and viruses. This fault line is also typically accepted as the divider between life and non-life: since viruses rely on host machinery to enact metabolic transformations and to replicate, they are not self-sufficient, and generally not considered living entities.
But several discoveries of giant viruses over the last decade have blurred this distinction. Some viruses are even larger and contain more genes than typical microbes like E. coli. Ultra-small bacteria detected in filtered groundwater from Rifle, Colorado are moving the goalposts from the opposite end, leading to a virus-microbe continuum in which distinguishing one from the other isn’t so straightforward. Among the alluring interpretations: giant viruses could be indicative of a fourth domain of life.
A recent study led by Frederik Schulz at the Department of Energy’s Joint Genome Institute blurs the virus-microbe line even further. While assembling a metagenome from sewage sludge in Klosterneuburg, Austria, Schulz found several genes that all mapped back to the same unknown virus, genes that until now have only been associated with free-living cells.
The particle – named Klosneuvirus – is still a virus, given its other genes and outer coat, but its 1.57 million-base genome allows a greater degree of autonomy than many of its viral relatives. Most notably, they have a relatively complete complement of protein-making machinery, which would reduce the dependence on host cells to do their bidding. For example, most viruses lack aminoacyl tRNA synthetase enzymes, which shuttle amino acids onto transfer RNA molecules; these in turn make their way to the ribosome, dropping off their cargo to build proteins from the chains of amino acids. While some previously discovered giant viruses have seven of the 20 aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, Klosneuvirus has 19, making it almost entirely independent of host involvement in protein synthesis. (It’s also worth noting that autonomy is not a requirement for cellular life, either: many microbes are “auxotrophic,” meaning they depend on external input of organics – often amino acids – in order to survive.)
So could this sophisticated, rule-breaking giant virus indeed be a sign of the mythical fourth domain? To find out, the team compared Klosneuvirus’s aminoacyl tRNA synthetase sequences with other forms of the enzymes across the tree of life. The results were all over the place, with each synthetase showing closest similarity to a different organism (mostly algae). In the ever hyperbolic language of scientific journalese, Schulz notes that “these findings are incompatible with the fourth domain hypothesis…and instead imply piecemeal acquisition of these genes by giant viruses.” The synthetases don’t seem to have evolved together, from the same branch point and within the same organism; rather, they were scooped up by an opportunisitc virus and incorporated into an increasingly mature metabolic network.
As suggested by previous revelations of giant viruses, Klosneuvirus is likely just the beginning of a more thorough reconfiguration of the tree of life. After the intriguing result from the sewage treatment plant in Austria, Schulz looked for genomes of similar viruses, lurking in previously obtained metagenomes from around the world. He found three more – enough to propose a new subfamily, the Klosneuvirinae – the latest links in the chain connecting viruses and the three domains of cellular life.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/environment/giant-virus-found-in-sewage-blurs-the-line-between-life-and-non-life?utm_source=dsctwitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=dsctwitter
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Offline Leeway

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #29 on: 26/12/2019 12:27:06 »
The question wants a response that would provide concepts or guidelines regarding measuring biological life. However, the question is not only a scientific one, and to answer it scientifically one must first aspire to understand the philosophical and political implementations of the answer to this question.

Strictly speaking, there is no definite boundary between biology and geology. Biology is geology. The concept "biological life" is a creation that makes it easier to classify and analyze the world around us. But, as there is no boundary, where should it be put? That is the real meaning of the above question. Therefore, my answer is that the answer to that question is a philosophical or political answer, and not a scientific one.
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Offline tombaker

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #30 on: 26/12/2019 13:43:39 »
Biological life is a special state of matter that distinguishes biological organisms from inorganic objects, i.e., inanimate, dead organisms, achieved through the following processes:

Speaking of life, they usually mean the life of protein bodies. Some organisms, such as bacteriophages that do not produce their proteins, do not fall into this category of lifehttp://bakerim.com/
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Offline tombaker

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #31 on: 26/12/2019 15:09:45 »
Biological life is a special state of matter that distinguishes biological organisms from inorganic objects, i.e., inanimate, dead organisms, achieved through the following processes:

Speaking of life, they usually mean the life of protein bodies. Some organisms, such as bacteriophages that do not produce their proteins, do not fall into this category of life. 8)
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Offline cleanair

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #32 on: 26/12/2019 19:40:28 »
Quote from: Leeway on 26/12/2019 12:27:06
Therefore, my answer is that the answer to that question is a philosophical or political answer, and not a scientific one.

Why do you believe that a definition of life can be a political answer? Would it be similar to stating that, instead of a scientific answer, it is a religious answer?

Quote from: tombaker on 26/12/2019 15:09:45
Speaking of life, they usually mean the life of protein bodies. Some organisms, such as bacteriophages that do not produce their proteins, do not fall into this category of life. 8)

Recent discoveries question whether bacteriophages or viruses should be excluded.

Evolutionary biologists have never known what to make of viruses, arguing over their origins for decades. But a newly discovered group of giant viruses, called Klosneuviruses, could be a 'missing link' that helps to settle the debate — or provoke even more discord.

https://www.nature.com/news/giant-virus-discovery-sparks-debate-over-tree-of-life-1.21798

Also, dead organic matter (pig brains) have been brought back to life in a laboratory.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/04/pig-brains-partially-revived-what-it-means-for-medicine-death-ethics/
« Last Edit: 28/12/2019 19:10:03 by cleanair »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #33 on: 27/12/2019 00:06:18 »
Living things modify their environment for their own or their successors' benefit.
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Offline cleanair

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #34 on: 28/12/2019 19:14:57 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/12/2019 00:06:18
Living things modify their environment for their own or their successors' benefit.

What is the origin of the evaluation 'benefit'? Why is benefit evaluated?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #35 on: 29/12/2019 00:36:31 »
It is the judgement of the living thing itself. In most cases, the benefit is also obvious to an observer, but not necessarily so. The fundamental processes of nutrition and elimination alter the environment, extracting stuff that is necessary for the continuation of life processes and dumping stuff that would inhibit them.

The clever bit is the mutual evolution of plants that oxygenate the air and animals that carbonate it, to produce a dynamic equilibrium.
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Offline cleanair

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #36 on: 29/12/2019 14:51:11 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 29/12/2019 00:36:31
It is the judgement of the living thing itself.

Your argument is basically "It is alive thus it is life". It doesn't explain why life exists, or why its origin cannot be explained scientifically.
« Last Edit: 29/12/2019 17:29:39 by cleanair »
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Offline Kryptid

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #37 on: 29/12/2019 14:59:17 »
Quote from: cleanair on 29/12/2019 14:51:11
its origin cannot be explained scientifically.

How do you know that?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #38 on: 29/12/2019 17:51:15 »
Quote from: cleanair on 29/12/2019 14:51:11
Quote from: alancalverd on 29/12/2019 00:36:31
It is the judgement of the living thing itself.

Your argument is basically "It is alive thus it is life". It doesn't explain why life exists, or why its origin cannot be explained scientifically.
1. Wrong.

2. That wasn't the question

3. Wrong, like "heavier than air machines can't fly". There was a time when I could not speak English, but it would have been wrong to assume I couldn't learn.
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Offline cleanair

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Re: What is life?
« Reply #39 on: 29/12/2019 18:07:23 »
Quote from: Kryptid on 29/12/2019 14:59:17
Quote from: cleanair on 29/12/2019 14:51:11
its origin cannot be explained scientifically.

How do you know that?

I do not. It is a suggestion for a consideration. If the origin of life is inexplicable, then it must be possible to explain why. There is a requirement to provide an answer.

I find this topic very interesting, considering the time (2020).

I noticed that in science, when an answer cannot be provided, a sort of black box effect may occur. The scientific process moves around it and could be making (or indirectly/culturally cause) mistakes.

As an example, for a long time animal minds have been ignored by science. Animal minds have been considered a "black box" and wasn't given attention and thus people in general didn't know anything about it and cannot understand a problem with treating animals in a specific way (i.e. without respect).

Quote
animal minds and consciousness have been consigned to a “black box”, an entity too complex or confusing to delve into, but whose inputs and outputs become the object of study.

https://cosmosmagazine.com/society/animals-science-behaviour-and-ethics

Recent scientific developments show that even plants can be considered "slow animals" that can interact with animals (including humans) in a meaningful way.

BBC: Plants can see, hear and smell – and respond

Quote
Plants, according to Jack C Schultz, "are just very slow animals".

This is not a misunderstanding of basic biology. Schultz is a professor in the Division of Plant Sciences at the University of Missouri in Columbia, and has spent four decades investigating the interactions between plants and insects. He knows his stuff.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170109-plants-can-see-hear-and-smell-and-respond

With the question 'what is life?' something similar may be at play. Big Pharma like companies are already investing trillions of USD per year in synthetic biology to redesign life, apparently with the primary purpose to serve a short term financial interest.

Therefor my argument is that it is important to not factor out the origin of life. An answer to the question "what is life?" is important before you profoundly start to redesign it.

Humans have always modified the environment for their advantage, which is considered by some to be parasitic behaviour. However, that is different from an attempt to top down control the fabric of nature, i.e. to use science or a human (corporate) perspective as a guiding principle for nature.
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