[pensador (OP)]

I have a friend who has just developed rheumatoid arthritis. Painful swellings of various joints.

She has heard cider vinegar and honey, may help. link on the subject https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323074

This cider vinegar and honey diet was originally published by Margaret Hills SRN back in the 1970's. Many people claim to have been cured.

Certain foods such as Citrus fruits, and wine, are said to cause flare ups of Rheumatoid arthritis.

My questions are

1) are there any other foods that may have a similar effect to cider vinegar and honey ??

2) what foods or drinks are likely to cause attacks of rheumatoid arthritis?? 

3) she has heard drinking brandy or stout is OK is this right?

[Bored chemist]

I have a friend who has just developed rheumatoid arthritis.

Sorry to hear that.

She has heard cider vinegar and honey, may help.

There's a lot of hogwash posted on lots of fora about this illness (and others).
But the best bet is to look at sites that are not trying to sell you stuff.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/rheumatoid-arthritis/living-with/

I doubt there is any evidence that honey or cider vinegar has any benefit.

[pensador (OP)]

After a bit of digging around. Honey is used as an antiseptic, especially in patients who are resistant to other treatments and cherries apparently help with inflammation in rats with Rhumatoid arthiritis.

Also there are loads of foods likely to cause attacks, such as citrus fruits.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that cider vinegar and honey combination helps. But no conclusive tests have been carried out.

Cider vinegar diluted can also be used as a skin cleanser, and also has anti fungal properties for your nails. If taken orally without dilution the enamel on your teeth is likely to disapear.

There are drugs on the market that can prevent the immune system attacking the joints, I wonder if cider vinegar has any similar properties?

My friend has now heard lemons are good for arthritis, because counter intuitively they make the blood more alkaline. Doh

[pensador (OP)]

After even more digging around, there appears to be a link between RA and Potassium deficiency. Taking a supplement can help reduce pain. Or maybe eating lots of Bananas would help supplement Potassium levels, I know my friend has low blood pressure, and has been advised to eat bananas when it gets bad, to help the blood pressure and circulation.

https://www.healthline.com/health/rheumatoid-arthritis/link-between-ra-and-potassium#1
http://www.chemistryislife.com/the-chemistry-of-bananas-2

A selection of drugs and side effects https://www.healthline.com/health/rheumatoid-arthritis/medications-list#dmards-and-biologics
and a link on Protein kinase inhibitor which was interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_kinase_inhibitor

[pensador (OP)]

The active ingredient in Protein kinase inhibitor is Phosphate PO4.

Cider Vinegar has Sodium 22 mg; Potassium 88 mg; Phosphorus 6 mg; Calcium 8 mg; Fiber 0.1 g .

I am crap on chemistry what is the difference between Phosphate and Phosphorous. ? Are the two words used interchangeably.?

Edit question answered on this thread https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=78927.0

[pensador (OP)]

This link indicates that high levels of vitamin B complex in cider vinegar may reduce inflammation. The link also covers every other claimed health benefit for apple cider.
 
"A study from 2004 has shown that while apple cider vinegar might not be effective for acute pain and inflammation, it may be for chronic pain and inflammation. Apple cider vinegar contains vitamin B complex, which researchers found may help with inflammation. The investigators of this mouse study speculated that the significant benefits observed may have been partially due to the presence of vitamin B complex in apple cider vinegar."

https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2019/01/29/10-science-backed-benefits-apple-cider-vinegar-separating-facts-fiction/

Any comments ?

[pensador (OP)]

Please will some one respond if anything here is clearly rubbish.

Leaky gut can cause inflammation and cause the production of fibrin, which causes the pain and inflammation. Eating gluten based foods can through leaky gut cause inflammation.

Cooking food reduces the amount of proteolytic enzymes available in your food. Proteolytic enzymes dissolve the fibrin in your blood.

The following foods are beneficial for reducing inflammation. Bromelain contained in Pineapple, Tumeric extract, Paparin contained in many fruits. Devils Claw, which is a pain killer. Boswellia extract, Ginger extract, Rutin, Bioflavinoids.

There is a product called Heal and Soothe sold in the states that contains a bunch of the above, which is claimed to alleviate the symptons of arthritis. It also includes Mojave Yucca Root.

Supplement Facts, $70 for a months supply. First jar free apparently.

Would anyone knowledgeable like to comment. ?

[pensador (OP)]

There are natural pain killers, everyone knows of willow bark, which aspirin was developed from. #heres a couple more https://www.healthline.com/health/pain-relief/surprising-natural-pain-killers#turmeric

Tumeric is a natural anti inflammatory and if taken with black pepper it enhances its effect for some reason. A lot of Indian doctors use it.

Papaya is also a natural painkiller https://www.sharecare.com/health/pain-treatment/how-papaya-reduce-pain-overexertion

[pensador (OP)]

She has heard cider vinegar and honey, may help.

There's a lot of hogwash posted on lots of fora about this illness (and others).
But the best bet is to look at sites that are not trying to sell you stuff.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/rheumatoid-arthritis/living-with/

I doubt there is any evidence that honey or cider vinegar has any benefit.

It seems there is scientific evidence that you are wrong. There are many foods that help with rheumatoid arthritis.

[Bored chemist]

It seems there is scientific evidence that you are wrong.

What did I say that is not correct?

[pensador (OP)]

It seems there is scientific evidence that you are wrong.

What did I say that is not correct?

your implication was that herbal remedies are hogwash. Even suggesting that honey has no medicinal benefits, which was clearly incorrect. Subsequently I had a dig around and found all sorts of herbs and foods that are beneficial to people suffering from arthritis. In fact devils claw, tumeric, pineapple, and papaya are very effective. Eating Bananas can help with the potassium deficiency that all rhumatoid arthritis sufferers have. B vitamins are also helpful, and yes rather tenuously Cider Vinegar has b vitamins and a small amount of potassium, so it might also help a little, even if its just psychological.
 

[Bored chemist]

Even suggesting that honey has no medicinal benefits, which was clearly incorrect.

Please provide evidence of a benefit to arthritis sufferers from honey.

[Bored chemist]

your implication was that herbal remedies are hogwash.

Not really.
What I said was not to take your advice from people selling "treatments".
Do you disagree with that?

[Bored chemist]

In fact devils claw, tumeric, pineapple, and papaya are very effective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpagophytum#Adverse_reactions
Wouldn't it be good to mention that Devil's claw interacts badly with the NSAIDs that many or most RA sufferers will take?
I will let you check out the others.

[pensador (OP)]

Not really.
What I said was not to take your advice from people selling "treatments".
Do you disagree with that?

You did use the word hogwash. But yes people selling herbal remedies and pharmaceutical remedies do have a vested interest.

[pensador (OP)]

In fact devils claw, tumeric, pineapple, and papaya are very effective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpagophytum#Adverse_reactions
Wouldn't it be good to mention that Devil's claw interacts badly with the NSAIDs that many or most RA sufferers will take?
I will let you check out the others.

My friend isnt taking any medication as yet and she is unlikely to get pregnant, which devils claw and pineapples might cause problems with.

I am going to keep an open mind on the subject.

[Bored chemist]

You did use the word hogwash.

Yes, obviously, I used it.
Anyone who looks back through the thread (or searches it) will see that.
Why did you bother to mention this remarkably obvious fact?

My friend isnt taking any medication as yet

OK, a definite medical problem but, rather than looking at real medicine, they decide to try random doses of poorly defined materials from plants.

Is there any part of that which strikes you as ill-advised?

 

But yes people selling herbal remedies and pharmaceutical remedies do have a vested interest.

One of those groups of seelers has some sort of testing regimen to get through.

[pensador (OP)]

The only info i posted which was based on paying was the $40 link, for some pill which included the devils claw. The rest is known to have either anti inflammatory or pain killing effects, which can be bought in the average super market.

Granted some foods do interact with medicines, from personal experience I know seville oranges and pomplemouse and figs all cancel out ace inhibitors. 

Some foods however do cause inflammation in arthritis sufferers. Some medications from big pharma do have massive side effects also.

[pensador (OP)]

A link on tumeric and curcumin from an antibacterial and antiviral investigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4022204/
lead me to a link on Heliobacter pylori as a possible trigger for rhumatoid arthritis. http://mmj.eg.net/article.asp?issn=1110-2098;year=2015;volume=28;issue=2;spage=319;epage=324;aulast=El-Hewala

My friend has been consuming a variety of things listed above, and avoiding various foods recently she is now feeling much better. Swelling reduced, morning stiffness reduced etc. 

The first link above is over my head, is there any mileage in eating tumeric or curries with tumeric in to reduce the effect of viral infections such as corona viruses. I like spicy food so I dont see the harm in trying, but then I dont get ill, like other people

Could staying off the ice cream be helping her more than staying off the red wine https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1112864/

Could Heliobacter Pylori (HP) be a underlying reason for the sudden attack MAYBE! and is sugar/ice cream the main food for HP http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/08_02/stomach_bug.shtml

[Bored chemist]

The sensible thing to do would be to test for H pyloris, and eradicate it if it's found.