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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  4. Is there a better way to explain light?
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Is there a better way to explain light?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #260 on: 09/12/2022 23:36:07 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 09/12/2022 17:48:10
Why did you think I would plough on through the rest of it?
To avoid embarrassment.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #261 on: 10/12/2022 01:08:12 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/12/2022 23:34:13
Quote from: Bored chemist on 09/12/2022 17:45:54
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/12/2022 04:20:32
Single edge diffraction of a narrow parallel light beam
What made the beam narrow?
Collimating lens.
That doesn't answer the question.
The beam they bounced off the mirrors on the moon was sent out via a collimating lens (OK strictly a mirror but that makes no difference) 3 metres across.
But the mirrors are only about 1/6 of that size.

What you seem not to realise is that a beam is only "finite" because it has been sent through some aperture.
In the case of a laser pointer, the aperture is inside the laser itself.
But there is always some sort of limit.
So the answer to "What made the beam narrow?" is always " a set of edges".

You think you have an experiment where there's only one diffracting edge.
Are you sure?


Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/12/2022 23:36:07
Quote from: Bored chemist on 09/12/2022 17:48:10
Why did you think I would plough on through the rest of it?
To avoid embarrassment.
Whose?
Who will be embarrassed by you posting a video in which you say something that's wrong.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #262 on: 10/12/2022 01:48:38 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 01:08:12
So the answer to "What made the beam narrow?" is always " a set of edges".
Here's a diagram of semiconductor laser.

The width of the gap between the substrates determines the minimum width of the light beam at the focal point of Collimating lens. Without the lens, the light beam would be divergent, thus won't stay narrow for long.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #263 on: 10/12/2022 01:50:18 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 01:08:12
You think you have an experiment where there's only one diffracting edge.
Are you sure?
How many edges do you find in that video?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #264 on: 10/12/2022 01:52:08 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 01:08:12
Whose?
Who will be embarrassed by you posting a video in which you say something that's wrong.
What's the wrong thing I said?
What should be said instead to make it right?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #265 on: 10/12/2022 12:26:59 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/12/2022 01:48:38
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 01:08:12
So the answer to "What made the beam narrow?" is always " a set of edges".
Here's a diagram of semiconductor laser.

The width of the gap between the substrates determines the minimum width of the light beam at the focal point of Collimating lens. Without the lens, the light beam would be divergent, thus won't stay narrow for long.
You missed a few relevant bits.

* edges.png (43.57 kB . 1085x912 - viewed 1059 times)
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #266 on: 11/12/2022 06:10:25 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 12:26:59
You missed a few relevant bits.
After hitting the edges, the laser beam will diverge, until it's made parallel by Collimating lens.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #267 on: 11/12/2022 10:06:41 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/12/2022 06:10:25
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 12:26:59
You missed a few relevant bits.
After hitting the edges, the laser beam will diverge, until it's made parallel by Collimating lens.
No

* edges.png (52.92 kB . 1085x912 - viewed 1071 times)
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #268 on: 11/12/2022 11:23:37 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 11/12/2022 10:06:41
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/12/2022 06:10:25
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 12:26:59
You missed a few relevant bits.
After hitting the edges, the laser beam will diverge, until it's made parallel by Collimating lens.
No
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
Where do you think the top and bottom light beam coming out from the lens come from?
What do you think the light beam would look like if the lens is removed?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #269 on: 11/12/2022 13:41:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/12/2022 11:23:37
Quote from: Bored chemist on 11/12/2022 10:06:41
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/12/2022 06:10:25
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 12:26:59
You missed a few relevant bits.
After hitting the edges, the laser beam will diverge, until it's made parallel by Collimating lens.
No
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
Where do you think the top and bottom light beam coming out from the lens come from?
What do you think the light beam would look like if the lens is removed?
Please try to pay attention.
The edge of the lens will cause diffraction.
So the light coming out of the lens can not possibly all be collimated.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #270 on: 11/12/2022 21:05:51 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 11/12/2022 13:41:11
Please try to pay attention.
The edge of the lens will cause diffraction.
So the light coming out of the lens can not possibly all be collimated.
The lens is much larger than the gap between the substrates. The light beam coming to the edges of the lens has near zero intensity. Its contribution to the diffraction and interference pattern in commonly used single slit experiment is negligible.
It seems like you have been misled by a rough sketch. Your attention was driven to focus on some errors in the details, rather than how it was intended to illustrate, which is showing how a semiconductor laser work.
« Last Edit: 11/12/2022 21:15:48 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #271 on: 12/12/2022 13:16:06 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/12/2022 21:05:51
The lens is much larger than the gap between the substrates.
It is finite.
It diffracts.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/12/2022 21:05:51
It seems like you have been misled by a rough sketch.
In what way?
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/12/2022 21:05:51
which is showing how a semiconductor laser work.
Do you really think I didn't know?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #272 on: 12/12/2022 14:02:48 »
Not sure who is arguing what here, but it's worth noting that unlike a gas laser, the emission from a solid state unit is not inherently parallel, nor is it from a point source. Therefore focussing, either to a point or to a parallel beam, is inherently imprecise.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #273 on: 13/12/2022 06:45:48 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 12/12/2022 13:16:06
It is finite.
It diffracts.
The diffraction is produced by the edges of the aperture, rather than the lens.
https://photographylife.com/what-is-diffraction-in-photography
Quote
When photographers talk about lens diffraction, they are referring to the fact that a photograph grows progressively less sharp at small aperture values – f/16, f/22, and so on. As you stop down your lens to such small apertures, the finest detail in your photographs will begin to blur.

Quote
A lens utilizes an aperture to help control depth of field, one of the most important tools in photography. However, leaving the aperture wide open will often result in slightly soft images, due to the lens's lack of ability to focus the light rays at that aperture. On the other hand, if you stop down too much, diffraction will also soften images because the extremely small aperture opening will bend the light in a different way, resulting in rays that aren’t accurately captured.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/lens-diffraction-what-it-and-how-avoid-it
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #274 on: 13/12/2022 08:33:51 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2022 06:45:48
The diffraction is produced by the edges of the aperture, rather than the lens.
That is exactly what I said.
Why are you repeating it as if it's somehow news to us all?
Why waste that bandwidth?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #275 on: 13/12/2022 09:27:43 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/12/2022 08:33:51
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2022 06:45:48
The diffraction is produced by the edges of the aperture, rather than the lens.
That is exactly what I said.
Why are you repeating it as if it's somehow news to us all?
Why waste that bandwidth?
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 01:08:12
What you seem not to realise is that a beam is only "finite" because it has been sent through some aperture.
In the case of a laser pointer, the aperture is inside the laser itself.
But there is always some sort of limit.
So the answer to "What made the beam narrow?" is always " a set of edges".
Quote from: Bored chemist on 11/12/2022 13:41:11
The edge of the lens will cause diffraction.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #276 on: 13/12/2022 20:42:50 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2022 09:27:43
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/12/2022 08:33:51
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2022 06:45:48
The diffraction is produced by the edges of the aperture, rather than the lens.
That is exactly what I said.
Why are you repeating it as if it's somehow news to us all?
Why waste that bandwidth?
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 01:08:12
What you seem not to realise is that a beam is only "finite" because it has been sent through some aperture.
In the case of a laser pointer, the aperture is inside the laser itself.
But there is always some sort of limit.
So the answer to "What made the beam narrow?" is always " a set of edges".
Quote from: Bored chemist on 11/12/2022 13:41:11
The edge of the lens will cause diffraction.

You seem to  have forgotten to make any sort of point.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #277 on: 14/12/2022 02:56:58 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/12/2022 20:42:50
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2022 09:27:43
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/12/2022 08:33:51
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2022 06:45:48
The diffraction is produced by the edges of the aperture, rather than the lens.
That is exactly what I said.
Why are you repeating it as if it's somehow news to us all?
Why waste that bandwidth?
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/12/2022 01:08:12
What you seem not to realise is that a beam is only "finite" because it has been sent through some aperture.
In the case of a laser pointer, the aperture is inside the laser itself.
But there is always some sort of limit.
So the answer to "What made the beam narrow?" is always " a set of edges".
Quote from: Bored chemist on 11/12/2022 13:41:11
The edge of the lens will cause diffraction.

You seem to  have forgotten to make any sort of point.
You seem to  have forgotten what you've said previously.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #278 on: 14/12/2022 08:31:25 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/12/2022 02:56:58
You seem to  have forgotten what you've said previously.
It only seems that way to you.
All the things I said are consistent with each other.
Do you understand that an aperture and an edge mean the same thing?
The only reason you have a beam of finite width is that something got in the way of light outside the beam.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a better way to explain light?
« Reply #279 on: 14/12/2022 12:51:43 »
Quote
Young's interference experiment with single photons (Hamamatsu Photonics, 1982)
This experiment, conducted by Hamamatsu Photonics in 1981,  captured the dual nature of the photon by a special camera for the first time ever in the world.
It seems that this kind of experiments have convinced people that light consists of particles called photon.
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