[Bored chemist]

Farage was unique in always answering the question

It's informative to look at some of his answers.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/seb-dance/nigel-farage-seb-dance_b_14591852.html
Sure; he kept repeating the answers.

As Goebbels said, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

He also said "?If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

and being prepared to campaign for the public good

The lies he told were not good for the public. On the other hand, they got him a salary.

[Bored chemist]

My grandfather (right) at one of your great hospitals in 1942. 51.4977N 2.5249W

Can you explain the way in which you think this is relevant?

[Zer0]

Your cordial discussions & civilized conversations on the Topic were very informative n helpful to read & understand the Subject.

If y'all don't mind, i do have a lil follow-up query.

What bout " BrReEntry " ?
Any possibilities whatsoever in the coming decade, century or millenium?

ps - BrEnter(1973) - BrExit(2020) - BrReEntry(?)

[Bored chemist]

What bout " BrReEntry " ?

I wondered about that.

Just curious; if brexit was reversed, which benefit would you miss most?

But nobody seemed to answer.

[alancalverd]

I'm disinclined to participate further because I actually find the question a bit offensive. Many of us on the "left" were always skeptical of the Common Market and more so of the EU. It happens that enough folk on the "right" agreed, for whatever reason (assuming that rightwingers are capable of reason) that they were able to push the government into a referendum on the subject, and the majority of the public shared my view.

So far, so good, but thanks to the bizarre means by which the Conservative party elects its parliamentary leader that left us with a series of pro-EU prime ministers contractually obliged to leave the EU, faced with an anti-EU opposition leadership contractually obliged to oppose whatever the government proposed. So the government half-heartedly negotiated our withdrawal from the political trough whilst not actually admitting that the Opposition and their own back benchers really had the public mood but couldn't express it.  Meanwhile Romeo, disguised as a princess.....

The effect of incompetent negotiation has been a shambolic mess in Ireland, no benefit from "border control", and a gradual retreat from the potentially beneficial review and abolition of EU-based laws.

[Bored chemist]

OK, you and I may well disagree on the merits of the EU. (Though, like you and , for example, Jeremy Corbyn, I'm not that happy with it.)
The EU, on the other hand is clearly in favour of the EU. Whether that's because they genuinely think it's the best for the people, or if they are just on the gravy train, the people in the EU making decisions really support the EU.

Economics happens; it's rare that economists predict its path well but the UK leaving the EU was pretty much guaranteed to have a significant effect on the UK economy. There will have been long arguments about whether the effects will have been good or bad.

But, notwithstanding the economists' ability to predict it, there will have been an effect.

So, imagine it's 5 or 10 years ago and you are a Eurocrat. For one reason or another, you want the EU to continue.
Either you think the Brexit that's being talked about will be good for the UK, or you think it will be bad.

But you really don't want any country's departure from the EU to be any sort of success, because that will destabilise the EU (and harm your gravy train or the benefits of the EU depending on your personal opinion).
And the other EU ministers all think the same way about Brexit being a bad thing for the EU.

So... if you think that Brexit will harm the UK, your view is "**** them! Let them leave. It will crash their economy and all the other countries thinking of leaving will learn that it's not a good option".
On the other hand, if you are scared that Brexit will be a success, you will think "the EU really needs to pull together on this and screw over the UK if it leaves. (Just to make sure that nobody thinks leaving is a good move)".

And, of course, if the UK's biggest trading partner wants to screw our economy, they can. They are simply much bigger.

So, either the UK economy is screwed because of Brexit directly, or the UK's economy is crewed because the rest of the EU sabotage it.

One way or another, Brexit screws the UK; simply because the EU thinks the EU is a good thing.
No strategy that the UK could employ to address that is relevant. At best, it chooses the other path for our act of self-harm.

And, fast forward to today,  it has done.
Why is anyone surprised?

And then there's the master stroke of setting out your battle plan by announcing that you will leave.
Only a total idiot tells "the other side" what their negotiating strategy is before they start.
But Cameron, who was essentially pro EU, decided to announce that the UK would leave.
There wasn't a political reason for that. He could have called for a second (non- advisory) referendum.
He could have said to the EU "we are thinking of leaving; make it worth our while to stay".
But the decision was announced (to many people's surprise) that we would go regardless of how bad a deal they offered us.

And that decision was essentially made before the vote.
The claim had already been made; "sunlit uplands" "considerable upside" "we hold all the cards".

And So the EU knew that all they had to do was wait until we realised that we had to trade with someone and they could dictate terms.
And that was predicted before the vote took place.
So you can't really blame the negotiators- their hands were already tied.
I accept they were incompetent, but they were also irrelevant.
The other side of the table simply had to wait until the UK was desperate for a deal, and then offer them a poor one.
And, by that stage it was true, not just of the EU, but of everywhere else.

The thing is, I'm no genius politician. I'm not some prestige diplomat. But I worked that out. I knew Brexit would fail.

And, while I don't think the Tories are necessarily wonderfully clever, I accept that, even if they are less bright than me, they can hire someone brighter.

So, they went into this knowing what would happen.
And they did it anyway.
And a lot of them have made a stack of cash from doing it.
They have also given the USA a trade deal that lets the US "bid" for the NHS and trash our environmental and welfare (or humans and animals) laws.
So they stand to make even more money

Do you think they did that by accident?

[Bored chemist]

The effect of incompetent negotiation has been a shambolic mess in Ireland

No negotiation could solve the "Schrodinger's border" problem.
The brexiteers simply lied about it.

[alancalverd]

Switzerland solved the land border problem many years ago. AFAIK all goods that meet EU standards may be traded in Switzerland and anything manufactured in Switzerland (or China, for that matter) to EU standards may be placed on the market in the EU. I don't see queues of trucks at the border, but they do retain the authority to stop and interrogate anyone or anything they consider suspicious. Given that Switzerland has four official languages and borders with umpteen other countries, it shouldn't be difficult to come to a similar arrangement across a single border in Ireland, where there are only two  official languages, including a common business language, on each side.

Anyway, we seem to agree that the Tories are corrupt and incompetent, that the EU Commission is probably corrupt and vindictive, that Brexit isn't a left- or right-wing plot, and that the status quo is a shambles.

I rest my case.

[Bored chemist]

Switzerland solved the land border problem

I didn't realise Switzerland had a comparable history of political violence.
Or were you trying to say that two very different things are the same?

that Brexit isn't a left- or right-wing plot,

Support (or not) for the EU isn't a Right or Left thing.
But Brexit was done by, and for the Right.

Anyway, perhaps you can get back to answering this

Just curious; if brexit was reversed, which benefit would you miss most?

[Petrochemicals]

I think it is too early to say nothing will happen because of brexit, we have not seen what would happen with a government prepared to shake things up a bit. The current government did act on the ukraine, but the majority of support for the ukraine has come from the USA, the EU would probably be having a very expensive debate in Brussels at this point on how to appease Putin.

If a government was prepared to invest, tax and legislate, brexit opens up numerous possibilities. For example the fishing industry should be nationalised, the catches monitored and the fishing areas allowed to rejuvenate. Imports of foodstuffs produced in a cruel, explotitative or environmentally unfriendly way should be banned. Products produced from polluting sources (coal fired electricity, chemical discharge etc) should be legislated against.

I doubt we will see any government have the bravery to do anything meaningful, I suppose brexit was a white elephant.

[Bored chemist]

I think it is too early to say nothing will happen because of brexit,

Nobody was saying that.

EU would probably be having a very expensive debate in Brussels at this point on how to appease Putin.

They didn't. They sent support.

If a government was prepared to invest, tax and legislate, brexit opens up numerous possibilities.

Those possibilities were open, but the government didn't do them anyway.

Imports of foodstuffs produced in a cruel, explotitative or environmentally unfriendly way should be banned.

In reality, Brexit means we will probably end up eating American stuff that doesn't meet our (or EU) standards of quality, safety or animal welfare.

Products produced from polluting sources (coal fired electricity, chemical discharge etc) should be legislated against.

Not really because that would stop other people trading with us.

I doubt we will see any government have the bravery to do anything meaningful,

They "bravely" made themselves an their friends much richer.
You could argue that illegally proroguing parliament was brave.

[alancalverd]

But Brexit was done by, and for the Right.

I have consistently campaigned and voted against the UK's association with the Common Market and the EU. I resigned from the Labour Party because the B Liar government had disgraced the name of socialism. Special Branch (remember them?) took a particular interest in me as a radical anti-nuclear weapons activist, and I spent many years as a trade union representative. As an accredited expert to EU scientific panels, I spent a fair bit of your money opposing legislation based on rights and duties instead of wrongs. Brexit was done as much by and for lefty people like me as anyone else, but it was done badly because those charged with doing it did not stand to gain personally. 

[alancalverd]

Anyway, perhaps you can get back to answering this
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/05/2023 12:24:15
Just curious; if brexit was reversed, which benefit would you miss most?

The benefits I'm already missing are lower food prices, and a return to wrongs-based statute law and public ownership of infrastructure services. These could have flowed from Brexit but require a competent and uncorrupt government.

[Petrochemicals]

Anyway, perhaps you can get back to answering this
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/05/2023 12:24:15
Just curious; if brexit was reversed, which benefit would you miss most?

The benefits I'm already missing are lower food prices, 

You can have lower food prices, if we hormone the beef and chlorinated the chicken, or better still would be eating insects or perhaps rat?

I do not understand why the substance you ingest to maintain your body is one where people are obsessed with it being cheap, or why they expect the workers in that industry to be lowly and badly paid. Why people want to pay just enough money for badly tasting strawberrys rather than more for nice tasting ones. I suppose it's so they can afford sky sports and watch the champions league, see all the people that they are paying millions of pounds to kick a ball about, rather than paying  farmer Giles and his wife 20 pence a litre for milk rather than 10.

[Bored chemist]

But Brexit was done by, and for the Right.

I have consistently campaigned and voted against the UK's association with the Common Market and the EU. I resigned from the Labour Party because the B Liar government had disgraced the name of socialism. Special Branch (remember them?) took a particular interest in me as a radical anti-nuclear weapons activist, and I spent many years as a trade union representative. As an accredited expert to EU scientific panels, I spent a fair bit of your money opposing legislation based on rights and duties instead of wrongs. Brexit was done as much by and for lefty people like me as anyone else, but it was done badly because those charged with doing it did not stand to gain personally. 

So, the Brexit which was actually done was not done the way you have done it.
A magic hypothetical "beneficial brexit" would have been done by you and others like you.

But the actual, real Brexit was, as I said, done by, and for, the Right.

The benefits I'm already missing are lower food prices, and a return to wrongs-based statute law and public ownership of infrastructure services.

You can't miss what you don't have.
Those ideas were a fairy tale for the reason I explained earlier. The EU wouldn't allow them.

These could have flowed from Brexit but require a competent and uncorrupt government.

It would require at least two such governments, ours and the EU's.
But that wasn't going to happen in the real world, was it?

So no "good brexit" was actually ever going to be possible.
It should have been the Monster raving loony party's policy alongside every day being Christmas.

So, if Brexit (the real one, not a fantasy) was revoked, what would we lose?

[alancalverd]

Those ideas were a fairy tale for the reason I explained earlier. The EU wouldn't allow them.

Which is why we left the EU.

It would require at least two such governments, ours and the EU's.

No, just one. Like almost every other independent country.