[Æthelwulf (OP)]

http://www.ilovephysics.com/forum/p8684-Today-21%3A41%3A38.html#p8684

I have written it up here to be read.

[CliffordK]

It is hard to say what happened with very little evidence remaining, and scattered reports. 

One does look for inconsistencies in the article.

numerous sightings of a cigar-shaped mystery airship were reported across the United States.

MUFON then investigated the Aurora Cemetery, and uncovered a grave marker that appeared to show a flying saucer of some sort,

Without details, the "flying saucer" gravestone doesn't seem to represent the "cigar" craft that supposedly crashed.  No photos?

I'm not sure about aluminium alloys and 19^th century metallurgy.  Aluminum is commonly alloyed with Iron up to 1% or so.  5% iron sounds a bit high, but it wouldn't be surprising to be found in early alloy attempts, especially if there was less access to more exotic metals for use in the alloy. 

Considering the Modern Aluminum Alloys, I would have to imagine that "aliens" would not choose a high qty iron/aluminum alloy, and thus I would lean to the metal being of 19^th century terrestrial origin.

[Æthelwulf (OP)]

What I found most intruiging is that the tree they found the metal in actually would have been much smaller and at around the time of the crash, of whatever this object was, the tree seemed to have grown with this metal inside of it, like a time capsule.

[Æthelwulf (OP)]

''I'm not sure about aluminium alloys and 19th century metallurgy.  Aluminum is commonly alloyed with Iron up to 1% or so.  5% iron sounds a bit high, but it wouldn't be surprising to be found in early alloy attempts, especially if there was less access to more exotic metals for use in the alloy.''

I actually know very little about the manufacture of metals. All I do know is that they informed the audience that 5% could not be mixed in unless labaratory conditions where involved. Not even an ''early attempt'' could satisfy this answer... They didn't have those temperatures back then.

[Æthelwulf (OP)]

I will say however, I saw alleged pictures of this marker gravestone.. it did actually look eerily like a saucer. I want to know where the body is.

[Gordian Knot]

At face value these stories seem interesting. Then you realize that almost all the statements cannot be verified, and the story becomes problematic. The well water was tested. By whom? Is there a hard copy of the test results?

The piece of aluminum, alleged from the ship. Does it still exist? Who has it? Can it be examined so that the metallurgy can be verified?

More of the aluminum was found within a growing tree, suggesting it had been there for some time and had grown into the tree as the tree grew. Is there photo evidence of this metal within the living tree?

In most cases involving supposed UFO events, there is a great deal of verbal testimony, and little to no physical evidence. And unfortunately, verbal testimony must be considered as suspect. What if they misunderstood what they saw? What if they are just passing on hearsay they themselves heard? What if they have some vested interest in an outcome and alter their testimony accordingly.

Even if they honestly state what they believe they saw, is it accurate? Humans are notoriously inaccurate about what they saw, even in every day events. So even if they are being completely honest about their testimony that doesn't mean it is what they think it is.

The reality is that, even though there have been numerous alien visitation stories, especially since the 1950's, there has never been one single piece of physical evidence that can be verified as not being capable of coming from this world. Not one!

No alien skin samples, no clothing, no pieces of technology (even in a damaged state), no metals, plastics or other materials that couldn't have been made on Earth.

Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zip. This is a huge problem for the UFO enthusiasts. Even if only a fraction of the recorded events were real, in over six decades no one has been able to produce anything.

[Æthelwulf (OP)]

At face value these stories seem interesting. Then you realize that almost all the statements cannot be verified, and the story becomes problematic. The well water was tested. By whom? Is there a hard copy of the test results?

The piece of aluminum, alleged from the ship. Does it still exist? Who has it? Can it be examined so that the metallurgy can be verified?

More of the aluminum was found within a growing tree, suggesting it had been there for some time and had grown into the tree as the tree grew. Is there photo evidence of this metal within the living tree?

In most cases involving supposed UFO events, there is a great deal of verbal testimony, and little to no physical evidence. And unfortunately, verbal testimony must be considered as suspect. What if they misunderstood what they saw? What if they are just passing on hearsay they themselves heard? What if they have some vested interest in an outcome and alter their testimony accordingly.

Even if they honestly state what they believe they saw, is it accurate? Humans are notoriously inaccurate about what they saw, even in every day events. So even if they are being completely honest about their testimony that doesn't mean it is what they think it is.

The reality is that, even though there have been numerous alien visitation stories, especially since the 1950's, there has never been one single piece of physical evidence that can be verified as not being capable of coming from this world. Not one!

No alien skin samples, no clothing, no pieces of technology (even in a damaged state), no metals, plastics or other materials that couldn't have been made on Earth.

Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zip. This is a huge problem for the UFO enthusiasts. Even if only a fraction of the recorded events were real, in over six decades no one has been able to produce anything.

Bolded by me.

Not true. I will be back shortly to give you one documentary which contains all the facts, most of which I have extracted most of my knowledge from this case. The wiki article they have is not the best and has tended to leave out some of the more valuable information.

[Æthelwulf (OP)]

You say the problem lies in Enthusiasts. The real problems lies with skeptics who don't investigate these facts for themselves because they have already made their mind up.

Everything you need to know is here, watch intently please:

[Gordian Knot]

You claim skeptics don't investigate the facts. My experience has been that it is the believers that have that issue. Enthusiasts so WANT to believe that they are willing to accept too much information at face value. As a skeptic I asked about proof for several of the "facts" in this story.

I zipped through your video looking for any facts. On the subject of the ship seen in the sky, people saw something, an airline pilot saw something. No-one took a picture, so whatever was seen is hearsay.

On the metal found in the tree. They got a positive reading that something metallic is in the tree, but for some reason they cannot cut into the tree to retrieve whatever the instrument is reading. Bottom line, no way of knowing what is in that tree.

On the aluminum samples tested. Try as they might to suggest that the ratios seem wrong, bottom line is scientist found no unknown elements in the sample.

On the lack of metal fragments in the well. None were found by the modern team. But the son of the original owner of the property says his dad removed the metal from the well years ago. Hearsay. No proof. And of course the removed metal is now long gone.

On the high content of aluminum in the well water. The scientist that did the tests said it might be from aluminum objects that was in the water for decades, but could not rule out the possibility that aluminum was naturally occurring. No way to determine either way.

On the supposed alien grave in the cemetery. Ground radar is used and they find an unmarked grave. There is no evidence the grave is in any way special except its stone marker is gone. And of course, they are not allowed to exhume the remains. No reason to believe it is anything more than a normal grave.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As I have shown from your video there are claims aplenty, but evidence, solid hard evidence is nonexistent. In the end, no definitive proof has been presented that cannot be explained by earthly origins. None.

It may surprise you to find out that in point of fact my mind is NOT made up on this subject. I would be thrilled beyond belief to have a genuine piece of proof that we have been visited by beings not of this earth.

This video, although attempting to group a set of mysterious circumstances that, when combined,  "could" be interpreted as a UFO event, can just as easily be explained as a random set of incidents that prove nothing of the kind.

That doesn't prove that I have a closed mind on the subject. It proves that I require hard evidence to be convinced.

[Æthelwulf (OP)]

You are very good at misrepresenting the facts aren't you? Perhaps if you hadn't skimmed the video and watched it carefully some of the terminology would have made sense, like the ''unknown element''. It was indeed that, with the equipment used, so they took it to a lab which could identify it a lot better - and it did, a high concentration of iron. The video I posted seems to be missing parts however, because it was determined to be around 5% and required labaratory conditions.

''They got a positive reading that something metallic is in the tree, but for some reason they cannot cut into the tree to retrieve whatever the instrument is reading.''

Because it is a 100 year old tree. As they said, they are not exactly going to cut down a 100 year old tree just for the investigation. MUFON however noted that the metal was over a large area which just so happened to be littered in aluminium. You will also find if you had watched it carefully, alluminium in those days was very very expensive. Just seemed odd that the place be littered in molten aluminium.

''On the lack of metal fragments in the well. None were found by the modern team. But the son of the original owner of the property says his dad removed the metal from the well years ago. Hearsay. No proof. And of course the removed metal is now long gone.''

That is a fantastic distortion of the evidence - well done. It is not mere ''hearsay''. I class it as evidence that the boy, now an old man himself can admit that the metal was removed, but not because of legend which surrounded the water well. It was removed so they could drink from it. The man, if he was out to distort the facts like you seem to be doing, would have embraced this legend and said that his father had caught some mysterious illness from the well. But he didn't which adds remarkably to his testimony.

''On the high content of aluminum in the well water. The scientist that did the tests said it might be from aluminum objects that was in the water for decades, but could not rule out the possibility that aluminum was naturally occurring. No way to determine either way.''

I don't specialize in minerals, but aluminium is an odd metal to be found as a high concentration in water - unless the soil surrounding it is rich in it... seems a remarkable coincidence however.

''On the supposed alien grave in the cemetery. Ground radar is used and they find an unmarked grave. There is no evidence the grave is in any way special except its stone marker is gone. And of course, they are not allowed to exhume the remains. No reason to believe it is anything more than a normal grave.''

I admit, there is something annoying about the grave site. I even proposed the body has been removed. The marker no less probably went missing to stop people from finding the grave, which it didn't in the end. The reason one concludes it is not a normal grave, because as mentioned, every other grave at that cemetary had a stone. This was the ONLY unmarked grave, raising obvious suspicion of it being the site of the alleged alien. Indeed, there shouldn't be any other unmarked graves.

''It may surprise you to find out that in point of fact my mind is NOT made up on this subject.''

Yet you have diluted this subject, misrepresented the importance and credibility of testimony. I don't see your actions any different to a skeptic who has maden his mind up on the subject.

[Gordian Knot]

Friend, I'm not out to "get" you. Honestly. I didn't distort anything. I interpreted the story as it was told in the video. You may disagree with my interpretations, but that doesn't mean I'm distorting them.

We view things very differently. Rather than try and do a point by point again, let me use just one example to explain.

From your post:
My comment:
'On the lack of metal fragments in the well. None were found by the modern team. But the son of the original owner of the property says his dad removed the metal from the well years ago. Hearsay. No proof. And of course the removed metal is now long gone.''

Your response:
That is a fantastic distortion of the evidence - well done. It is not mere ''hearsay''. I class it as evidence that the boy, now an old man himself can admit that the metal was removed, but not because of legend which surrounded the water well. It was removed so they could drink from it. The man, if he was out to distort the facts like you seem to be doing, would have embraced this legend and said that his father had caught some mysterious illness from the well. But he didn't which adds remarkably to his testimony.

Again, I haven't distorted anything. We agree completely on what was said by the old man. Taking the contaminants out of the water is a sensible and reasonable thing to do.

Here's the rub. It's verbal testimony. I'm not saying the man is lying. I'm not implying any motive to the story at all. All I'm saying is that the metal was removed and is now gone.

That's it! As I understand it, from your point of view the story makes sense and should be classified as evidence. From my point of view the story makes sense; never the less the material is gone and thus there is no physical evidence left.

When trying to support an extreme claim, like this event was an exploding spacecraft, verbal testimony, no matter how accurate is not sufficient. Genuine physical evidence is the only, the only way to prove that this story is true.

Yes I am a skeptic. Guilty as charged. No my mind is not made up, believe it or not as you choose.

[Sprool]

I think a bit of healthy skepicism is good - not closed-minded but skeptic, the burden of proof lies with the UFO-supporters to prove it, not the skeptics to disprove it . However since there have been so many thousands of alleged sightings and rumours over the years, there really has been very little of anything that could be considered proper hard evidence that stands up to rigorous scientific scrutiny. So is it a huge government conspiracy? A massive cover-up to save us all from the scary truth? When governments can't even keep quiet about their own expense accounts or minor transgressions these days I have to say the chance of a massive co-ordinated cover up are minimal these days. And if ther was, what would their motive really be, to keep the truth from us? How would it perpetuate their own personal careers?
I have a problem with your article and the phrases which follow "I am led to believe.."eg: the 'hard evidence' about aluminium and iron, really needs some substantiation, a reference. I am not a metallurgist but I was a geologist and I know aluminium is one of the most abundant metals in the earths crust, and is commonly found as bauxite, which is a mixture of aluminium and iron, as an ore. This is not rare, special or extra-terrestrial.
High levels of aluminium in ore-rich areas are well documented as leaching into the water courses. There is no wonder or supstition about this. Sadly all the good bits of evidence around this appear to have gone missing, so we are all left to speculate.

[Æthelwulf (OP)]

Is it really that abundant? I would have thought there be more chance coming across fools gold than something like aluminium.

[damocles]

Is it really that abundant? I would have thought there be more chance coming across fools gold than something like aluminium.

Aluminium is the most abundant metallic element in the Earth's surface or crustal material. It is more abundant than iron or magnesium, for example. It is a major constituent of many common minerals, and most particularly of clay soils.

What is rare, and almost unknown, is the presence of aluminium in its simple substance, metallic form. It is always found as alumina -- oxide of aluminium -- or more complex oxidized materials such as the aluminosilicates.

So it is always important to distinguish between aluminium, as the element that is present in many common minerals, and aluminium metal, an artificial material which can only be obtained from naturally occurring aluminium ores through a very difficult process that involves huge amounts of electrical energy.

When water is analysed for aluminium, what is being measured is the amount of aluminium-as-element present, never the amount of aluminium-as-metal. Aluminium-as-element is usually fairly immobile in the environment, and does not get leached into water. But it is very readily leached if the water becomes even slightly acidic (below pH 5), or it can be mobilized as colloidal clay sol -- not a true solution, but a very familiar characteristic muddying of water seen by those of us who live in "soft water" catchments. High levels of aluminium-as-element are a regular feature of our streams.

By the way, "fool's gold" is a name applied to any or all of three minerals. Pyrite and marcasite are iron disulfide, and are extremely common in volcanic areas, but overall nowhere near as common as alumina. Chalcopyrite, copper iron sulfide, is the most common ore of copper.

[CliffordK]

Ok, I found all 4 parts of the film and watched it.

I think part of the problem with the "UFO" theorists is that they don't do the tests to disprove their theory.  One of the basic premises of science is not proving a hypothesis, but disproving the "null hypothesis".  I.E. disproving that your results could be caused by something else.

That can't be the only well in Texas.

Do some water tests on all the surrounding wells.  Is there any difference in the water in that well and the surrounding wells?  Obviously keeping in mind that water does move, but even if it is mobile contamination, one would find concentration to vary as a function of distance.  What about soil samples in the region? 

Nothing sounded unusual about the grave, other than finding that it existed.  There may be very little to find in it now.  The "town" has little benefit from allowing it to be exhumed.  It is more "mysterious" if left buried.

As far as the tree...  I have several trees around my property with metal in them.  Nails, insulators, pieces of wire, and etc.  Bullets?  They have fancy ground penetrating radar, but nothing to take a simple X-Ray of the tree?  Fluoroscope?  They don't have to cut down the tree for a sample, just a simple bore hole to dig it out, or if it is metal they are after, drill into the metal and capture the chips that come out.  How old is the tree?  There are minimally invasive methods to bore trees and count the rings.  And, while you're at it, it should be easy enough to determine the depth, and thus the age, where the metal was found in the tree.

And, with days of preparation, did they only spend about 5 minutes collecting samples in the well?  Cover it up...  let the storm pass, then go back down and take some photos and etc.  Clean out the mud from the bottom.  Perhaps get a dredge, or super-sucker to suck everything out of it, and screen through all of the mud (as well as cleaning the well).  Anything in the walls of the well?

Too much effort is put into looking for aliens, and not enough effort into looking for alternative explanations. 

If something fell from the sky and struck the windmill.  What about a meteor?  The cylinder shape could be the trail left by the meteor, and apparently there was contemporary work on blimps, so people would know what to look for considering an "air ship".  Any signs of meteor fragments?  Micro-Diamonds?