[QuantumClue (OP)]

Though defending myself again... If saucerlike objects date as far back as the middle ages, well before any photographic techniques where discovered, how can one say movies truely spawned the developement of sightings?

I agree, it must be true today many people create hoaxes because of the popular demand of the ufo-culture, but there was one point in our history where people genuinely saw these objects, and its not until later we have fully appreciated these claims..

[QuantumClue (OP)]

Here are reports of sightings in ancient rome, egypt and the middle ages.

http://spookysky.com/2009/09/ufo-sightings-in-ancient-egypt-rome-and.html

[Geezer]

QC - I think you are wasting your time trying to prove anything based on events that happened years ago. There has been too much time for manipulation and embellishment of the data.

Unless it's a current event, you are not going to convince skeptics (like me).

[QuantumClue (OP)]

Then I will attempt this a different route and ask you questions. First would be what makes you such a skeptic?

[Geezer]

Sorry, but I'm not going to get into a circular debate with you.

[QuantumClue (OP)]

You say it's circular without even beginning?

[Don_1]

QC, if you are looking for 'popular culture' in which flying saucers feature, try the H G Wells novel 'War of the Worlds'.

Orson Welles broadcast an adaptation of this book on radio in 1938 at Halloween. It was done in a manner which was akin to radio announcements. As a result, there was some panic and a considerable number of residents of New York and New Jersey started to flee the cities.

Strange, is it not, that before the advent of SF there are no reported UFO sightings.

BTW, your interpretation of 'popular culture' as being film and TV may stand good today, but before film and TV, books and news sheets were regarded as 'popular culture'.

[imatfaal]

a short animation on openmindedness which was just posted in another place yet I feel sums up my feelings on this and quite a few other controversies

[QuantumClue (OP)]

Imatfaal

Well, I have drawn some conclusions myself on this. The first few paragraph of the video beginning is riddled itself with flaws. First of all the video stipulates that this video can be applied to certain scientific concepts. If a theory presented has had little or no scientific investigation, then it is with good scientific regime to not have an expressed view of that unless it can be thought upon generally dismissable through a set of axioms.

In none of my existence have I seen proof for or against alien encounters. The scientist in me is more than aware of the technical implications, but I will keep an open mind on the possibility until such time evidence can be brought forth to clear this matter. A speculatory theory, which has not received wide scientific discipline is tenebrous and also dangerous to cast initial feelings on. UFO's sit on the boarder between reality and fantasy, and because of the lack of scientific discipline, some people find drawing results from it as futile.

The video also makes a point of saying that open mindedness is being wiling to appreciate new ideas. Whilst this true to some extent, it is not true in all cases. Some people being forwarded with new ideas, may have heard these ideas before. In this case, open mindedness can be also a way of trying to rethink an old way of thinking so a new paradigm can be unleashed.

Your video is strict, and speaks to us like babies. If that is the drive of your mentality, then by all means, enjoy your little videos.

[Geezer]

QC, as I said, you are presenting "evidence" that is almost as old as me.

If you provide something much more current, it is much more likely to be given serious consideration.

[QuantumClue (OP)]

Evidence as appealing as that, is unfortunately very evading. The world just doesn't want to know, and the world which does about these things, there is not enough support to generate that kind of evidence.

I can't provide you overwhelming evidence. I can only state the facts of the situation, and there are many facts in indeed which are often overlooked and not appreciated to their full; which is a strange way of thinking in my books.

[Geezer]

The world just doesn't want to know,

I think the World really does want to know.

Unfortunately, the World has been given precious little evidence, unless you include people that keep calling the population of the World ignorant because they will not accept some person's unsubstantiated ideas of so called evidence.

[QuantumClue (OP)]

The world just doesn't want to know,

I think the World really does want to know.

Unfortunately, the World has been given precious little evidence, unless you include people that keep calling the population of the World ignorant because they will not accept some person's unsubstantiated ideas of so called evidence.

Not wanting to know, and not knowing are quite different. I would not call people who don't know ignorant, but I would reserve that privalege to those who don't want to know.

[Geezer]

Not wanting to know, and not knowing are quite different.

No they're not. We really want to know. Give us something substantial to work on.

Perhaps you are confusing believing with knowing.

[QuantumClue (OP)]

Not wanting to know, and not knowing are quite different.

No they're not. We really want to know. Give us something substantial to work on.

Perhaps you are confusing believing with knowing.

If it's as clear cut as not knowing, then it's not being intentionally ignorant. But yes, as element of believing and not knowing was probably in there

[QuantumClue (OP)]

Well, either way, bottom line is I do not have damning evidence. Anyone who does know, sure does like to keep it a secret.

[CliffordK]

Well, either way, bottom line is I do not have damning evidence. Anyone who does know, sure does like to keep it a secret.

I think that is the problem...
For a "science forum"...  the first thing one will ask for is evidence.
And, starting a presentation with a clearly faked video is worse for your case than nothing at all.

The 1952 incident has apparently been declassified.  So, with that and various newspaper reports, there are probably thousands of pages of document relating to the incident.

In one report, I think I saw a note about some "molten metal" being left behind from the incident...  which subsequently has gotten lost.  Meteorite?  Hoax?

I can understand why our government would have had a policy of classifying UFO/Alien research, and how such a tactic would bother conspiracy theorists...  Hopefully such a policy has been reversed.

At this point, I don't believe there is an effort to consciously hide evidence of aliens.

However, I'd be much more interested in seeing some "NEW" evidence of aliens...  or a crashed ship...  or something, rather than chasing down some meteors, weather balloons, or lights in the sky that are 50 years old, with nothing more than a few white dots in an evening sky to go by.

Now...
Consider...  if one of the Voyager or Pioneer probes actually comes close to another star in a few million years.  Perhaps a few billion years as the probes will likely miss the first star they encounter. 

By that time, they will be "dark"...  perhaps generating a fraction of a watt of energy after most of the ²³⁸Pu has long since decayed into ²³⁴U which would have largely decayed into ²³⁰Th.  So the RTG would give off a very faint IR signature. 

The probes could be encased in ice like a comet.  Broken bits from being pelted with micro-meteorites for millions of years.

If one of the probes passed outside of the sun's heliopause, we would likely never detect it...  even if it took a century to pass by the sun.  If it started a long orbit around the sun like many of the comets (maybe one pass every few centuries), we'd probably never notice its uniqueness.  And...  with any luck, if it actually crashed into Earth (rather than Jupiter, Saturn, or Venus), then the only traces of it would be widely scattered pieces of the RTGs...  with a mix of 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation decay products, along with some other metal such as a mysterious inclusion of gold, but most of that would disintegrate in the upper atmosphere.

Eventually we may design probes that can be sent to nearby stars, and remain functioning and intact.  But, they likely will have very simple programming, not dancing in the sky and performing interesting light shows. 

If we make a manned colony ship that would take a few centuries, or a few millennia to get to Proxima/Alpha Centauri, then, well, we'd have to build in significant redundancy, but if it was at all functioning, it would be unlikely to just crash.

But, assuming it survived the trip, we would also make an effort to setup a colony... somewhere, Callisto, Mars, Venus, etc... rather than just dancing around the sky and putting on light shows. 

Our current understanding of physics precludes the representation of Aliens just passively visiting Earth and putting on light shows for us.  Anything could change as we learn more about our universe.  But...  I find it doubtful that we'll ever see the Starship Enterprise jumping from stellar system to stellar system, from galaxy to galaxy.

[CliffordK]

Perhaps the 1952 thing was all a political ploy.

Then, a week later, it happened all over again -- more UFOs on the radar screen, more jets scrambled over Washington. Across America, the story of jets chasing UFOs over the White House knocked the Korean War and the presidential campaign off the front pages of newspapers.

As rumors spread, President Truman demanded to know what was flying over his house. Soon the federal government was fighting the UFOs with the most powerful weapons in the Washington arsenal -- bureaucracy, obfuscation and gobbledygook.

That seemed to work. The UFOs never returned.

When newspapers stopped writing about the UFOs, people stopped reporting UFOs. "Reports dropped from 50 per day to 10 a day within a week," Ruppelt noted.

Nothing like a good juicy story to hide the "real" news.

[QuantumClue (OP)]

If this was a military stunt, a hoaxing to the nation, what where they trying subdue in these actions? It cannot be for hype, because that does not make sense. If it were true, then its almost like they were trying to get the nation ready for something, and then dissipate it quickly to perhaps present how irrational such an idea may seem at first glance.