[Pseudoscience-is-malarkey (OP)]

Why can't we teach them to do our taxes? Or learn to read? It seems that the most intelligent sperm whale (the animal with the biggest brain) is dumber than the dumbest human. They say they're intelligent communicators. For example, there is a 40-year-old sperm whale that can feel grief, pain, and joy, and learn from other animals. An impressive feat indeed, until you learn that human children as young as one can do the exact same thing. Even children with mental disabilities. Their conservation status is vulnerable, but you won't find one that is aware of it. Therefore they rely on humans to enact a course of action.

[alancalverd]

There is no evidence of whales worshipping a Sky Fairy, declaring war on Ukraine, or slaughtering whales to the point of extinction in order to make perfume. They can and do, however, navigate around the world without a map (no need to learn to read), avoid paying taxes, and catch their own food.  What is your definition of intelligence?

[Pseudoscience-is-malarkey (OP)]

What is your definition of intelligence?

The quality of self-awareness, abstract thinking, and higher reasoning. Intelligence and morality should not be confused. Although I'm sure you'll never admit it, the reason why whales and dolphins don't invade territories or worship a god or make perfume is because they're not capable, not because they possess higher morals.

[Origin]

Why can't we teach them to do our taxes? Or learn to read? It seems that the most intelligent sperm whale (the animal with the biggest brain) is dumber than the dumbest human.

Of course.

For example, there is a 40-year-old sperm whale that can feel grief, pain, and joy, and learn from other animals. An impressive feat indeed, until you learn that human children as young as one can do the exact same thing.

Whales are pretty smart compared to most other animals.

Their conservation status is vulnerable, but you won't find one that is aware of it. Therefore they rely on humans to enact a course of action.

Yes they and all large animals on the earth are at the mercy of humans.  If we decided to make a species become extinct it would take little time to accomplish that.  We of course could not make species of bacteria and most single cell animals become extinct without also killing ourselves.

[Eternal Student]

Hi.

   There's limited relationship between the size of a brain and the intelligence.
    If an organism is a whale, then there is plenty of space available and limited evolutionary advantage in making the brain smaller or more efficient per cubic centimetre of space taken up.   A very different set of evolutionary pressures and advantages exist for Homo Sapiens.

     Intelligence is an extremely difficult thing to define, it's probably the ability to do these two things:
1.  Be aware of your environment.
2.  Solve problems that will offer some survival or reproduction advantage.

  Human beings don't have any section of their brain dedicated to the processing of echo-location information which toothed whales and dolphins seem to have.  So we can't even "see" stuff underwater and are extremely likely to just walk into it.  To paraphrase this, we would seem like a fairly stupid organism to a whale.

Best Wishes.

[Kryptid]

Humans sometimes yell at inanimate objects when they don't what they want them to (computers in particular), so we do dumb things too.

[alancalverd]

Quote from: alancalverd on Today at 14:40:56
What is your definition of intelligence?
The quality of self-awareness, abstract thinking, and higher reasoning.

I have a friend who is beginning to compile a dictionary of the language of several small fish and manta rays. It's a fascinating project involving a lot of sociology, marine ecology, and underwater acoustic engineering.

You should learn the language of whales to get their views on such matters as you consider important. Not that they are likely to consider you as worth teaching - you are a member of a dangerously parasitic species.

I am continually amazed at the prevalence of Dunning-Kruger syndrome in homo sapiens - its almost endemic.

[Bored chemist]

Their conservation status is vulnerable, but you won't find one that is aware of it. Therefore they rely on humans to enact a course of action.

If, as seems depressingly plausible, humanity wipes itself out, the whales will recover at least as fast as they are currently doing.
Our "conservation" activities really just mean doing harm more slowly rather than doing any actual good.

[evan_au]

The Encephalization Quotient seems to be well-accepted measure of mammal intelligence - perhaps because it puts humans at the top of the list, above dogs & dolphins; whales come somewhere below rabbits.
- This is based on the idea that most of the brain is taken up by collecting sensory inputs from the skin (mammal surface area) and by controlling muscles (mammal volume)
- It seems to ignore the fact that a large fraction of the human brain is taken up by the sense of sight
- And a large part of the human brain is taken up by fine motor control of the hands
- Both of which are of limited use in the ocean
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalization_quotient

Apparently, a more modern concept of intelligence is forebrain neuron count, which leaves out the areas of the brain involved in motor control and sensory processing. This really knocks humans off their self-erected pedestal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons#List_of_animal_species_by_forebrain_(cerebrum_or_pallium)_neuron_number

Therefore whales rely on humans to enact a course of action.

Have you listened to any whale traditional stories? You would have needed to attempt this before we wiped out >90% of the population and destroyed any culture which previously existed - and which we now say doesn't exist.

Whales were navigating between poles and equator well before humans were an identifiable species.
I think the issue here is human chauvinism, hubris or specism.

[varsigma]

Humans can communicate with each other more intelligently than they can communicate with whales; this applies the other way as well (!)

That of course says absolutely nothing about which species is "more" intelligent. And how can we tell if human intelligence is more of anything than whale intelligence? it's one of those questions that needs a context.

[alancalverd]

It seems to ignore the fact that a large fraction of the human brain is taken up by the sense of sight
- And a large part of the human brain is taken up by fine motor control of the hands
- Both of which are of limited use in the ocean

Intelligence is constructive laziness.

Bipedal stance and gait place a considerable load on the human brain. Intelligent species like whales choose to swim instead.

Fine motor control is important in preparing and cooking food. Whales choose to swim through a cloud of raw prawns, or munch a whole squid.

Enormous quantities of human effort go into making nets, designing and building boats, and writing policies and distributing taxpayers' money to destroy the North Sea fish stock. Whales just know where they are and eat them in situ.