[puppypower (OP)]

Entropy is a state variable, meaning a given state of matter, will define a specific value of entropy. For example, the entropy of water 25 ◦C and 1 atm is 188.8 joules/(mole K). This value of entropy for that state is not random but will be measured the same by all labs. In this respect, entropy is like a finger print for any given state of matter. It helps identify the unique character of any state of matter.

For entropy to increase, energy needs to be absorbed. Since the entropy of the universe needs to increase with time, there is a bleed off of energy from the universe, which goes into entropy. This energy within entropy is hidden within finger prints of the multitude of states of matter.

Let me give an example, say we started with a cylinder of compressed gas at 25C. We open the valve and allow the gas to escape. What will happen is the gas will get very cold; endothermic change. We are changing the state of the gas, allowing the entropy to increase. Since the gas gets cold, we essentially lost energy, that is absorbed out the atmosphere. This energy is still part of the universal energy balance, but its exist within entropy, where it is hidden, since the gas will never spontaneous recompress itself so we can retrieve the energy; second law.

We could retrieve this hidden energy within entropy if we had a compressor. If we used the compressor to change the state of the gas, back to high pressure, it would get hot. If we then allowed it to cool back to 25C, the radiated heat will reheat the local atmosphere and return to play. This proves the energy was still there, but the reversal of the entropy will take more energy to retrieve the hidden energy, than we get back.  No processes is100% efficient thereby generating  secondary entropy; different lost energy.

Is this hidden energy within entropy what we call dark energy? The estimate is there is 75% dark energy within the universe. As entropy, this would mean that 75% of the original useful energy lies within states and finger prints. This energy can be extracted  with gravity; universal compressor, but always with some energy loss, so dark energy continues to increase. An expanding universe is a continuum of different finger print or states of the universe that unfold with time.

[jeffreyH]

It will be worth reading and understanding the following wikipedia page.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_temperature

[Bill S]

“You should call it entropy…..[because] no one knows what entropy really is, so in a debate you will always have the advantage.”
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                         John von Neumann, to Claude Shannon.

[puppypower (OP)]

“You should call it entropy…..[because] no one knows what entropy really is, so in a debate you will always have the advantage.”
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                         John von Neumann, to Claude Shannon.

Defining the mechanism behind entropy is not easy since it is a part of all states of matter. However, it is a measurable quantity, that is consistent and repeatable for any given state of matter. It was originally needed in engineering to help close energy balances around processes. When doing a detailed energy balance, around say a steam engine, the obvious sources of energy did not add up. There was always something missing. Entropy was the fudge factor used to define the energy difference needed to make input equal output. It is a tangible thing.

Gravity not only alters space-time but its also compresses matter via pressure. Pressure can alter the state of matter, thereby altering the entropy. Gravity often results in entropy lowering, leading to an exothermic output, so the once hidden state energy within entropy is released. This may well be the source of energy used to drive gravity induced rotations and universe expansion.

For example, if we expand the pressurized gas in the cylinder, the gas will get cold; endothermic. This coldness forms a non equilibrium with the environment, with heat flowing into the cold space. Once there is equilibrium, there is heat energy lost from the environment so the energy balance is messed up. It is hidden in the new state.

If we take this gas and place it on Venus so we can pressurize it, we can restore the energy hidden within the entropy. It is hard to explain where the energy went and/or came from, but it can be measured.
 

[puppypower (OP)]

There is a force connected to entropy, which I call the entropic force. This is the fifth force of nature. It is not an attractive force like the rest. This fifth force is currently being attributed to dark energy to make it modern and faddish.

One example of this fifth force occurs within osmosis. Osmosis is a colligative property of matter, meaning it is only dependent on the concentration of solute in solution, but not the quality of the solute. In other words, if you have the  same number of units in solution, they can be negative, positive, single or double charged or even neutral and one will get the exact same affect. It is driven by entropy and not by the EM force any of the other three forces. This entropic force can create an osmotic pressure; force/area.

In the case of the universe, space-time is analogous to water and matter is like solutes in solution, separated by the membrane at C. Matter cannot go C so it the membrane is semi-permeable.  Dark energy is the same as the entropic force that generates the osmotic pressure that pushes the matter apart to solubilize it in space-time.

[Bored chemist]

There is a force connected to entropy, which I call the entropic force. This is the fifth force of nature. It is not an attractive force like the rest. This fifth force is currently being attributed to dark energy to make it modern and faddish.

One example of this fifth force occurs within osmosis. Osmosis is a colligative property of matter, meaning it is only dependent on the concentration of solute in solution, but not the quality of the solute. In other words, if you have the  same number of units in solution, they can be negative, positive, single or double charged or even neutral and one will get the exact same affect. It is driven by entropy and not by the EM force any of the other three forces. This entropic force can create an osmotic pressure; force/area.

In the case of the universe, space-time is analogous to water and matter is like solutes in solution, separated by the membrane at C. Matter cannot go C so it the membrane is semi-permeable.  Dark energy is the same as the entropic force that generates the osmotic pressure that pushes the matter apart to solubilize it in space-time.

So, you don't know what force means and you don't understand osmosis.
Anything else you would like to add?
Entropy doesn't even have the right units to be energy (dark or otherwise).
It's like trying to measure the distance to the local shop in kilograms.

[jeffreyH]

There is a force connected to entropy, which I call the entropic force. This is the fifth force of nature. It is not an attractive force like the rest. This fifth force is currently being attributed to dark energy to make it modern and faddish.

One example of this fifth force occurs within osmosis. Osmosis is a colligative property of matter, meaning it is only dependent on the concentration of solute in solution, but not the quality of the solute. In other words, if you have the  same number of units in solution, they can be negative, positive, single or double charged or even neutral and one will get the exact same affect. It is driven by entropy and not by the EM force any of the other three forces. This entropic force can create an osmotic pressure; force/area.

In the case of the universe, space-time is analogous to water and matter is like solutes in solution, separated by the membrane at C. Matter cannot go C so it the membrane is semi-permeable.  Dark energy is the same as the entropic force that generates the osmotic pressure that pushes the matter apart to solubilize it in space-time.

So, you don't know what force means and you don't understand osmosis.
Anything else you would like to add?
Entropy doesn't even have the right units to be energy (dark or otherwise).
It's like trying to measure the distance to the local shop in kilograms.

Now that is funny. Made my day.

[Seth????????]

No need was felt in reading any reply because entropy is disorder... plain and simple and with thermodynamics it increases with time.... if you brake a glass, it will not pick itself up eventually and end up unhurt back where it belongs... it will probably continue in deterioration.... (entropy) life adapts but evolution is not real if you know anything about the arrow of thermodynamics. ..seth.

[puppypower (OP)]

So, you don't know what force means and you don't understand osmosis.
Anything else you would like to add?
Entropy doesn't even have the right units to be energy (dark or otherwise).
It's like trying to measure the distance to the local shop in kilograms.

No need was felt in reading any reply because entropy is disorder... plain and simple and with thermodynamics it increases with time.... if you brake a glass, it will not pick itself up eventually and end up unhurt back where it belongs... it will probably continue in deterioration.... (entropy) life adapts but evolution is not real if you know anything about the arrow of thermodynamics. ..seth.

I am not looking at entropy in terms of philosophy but in terms of experiment science. Entropy can be measured and is a constant for an given state of matter. Entropy is needed in applied science since it is required to close energy balances. This may not be as important in theoretical science. 

For example the entropy of liquid water is :1.8909 kJ ˣ mol-1 (25 °C) , for solid ice Ih: -6.005 J ˣ mol-1 (0 °C, 101.325 kPa), and for gas: 48.20 kJ ˣ mol-1 (100 °C, 101.325 kPa). These numbers are constant and not random and are used in chemical engineering calculations to do an accurate energy balance. Again, describing how entropy works is not easy but the experimental values for entropy are standards for various states of matter.

If I expand a gas it gets cold; endothermic. This will absorb energy from the environment to form an equilibrium that willlower the local temperature. Energy has been removed from the local gas. Where did it go? We may not be able to fully answer that, however, the same gas under the same conditions will always disappear the same amount of energy, if the same initial and final states are involved. This is called tangible and repeatable science.

As far as osmosis and the entropic force, the entropic force is not an attractive force like the other four forces. It is also not exactly a repulsive force. However, based on experimental science, entropy can act like a force since it can generate pressure, which is force/area. Osmotic pressure can be measured in the lab, and again it is consistent with the  concentrations; states of matter, under osmotic conditions. Physical chemistry used to be physics and this used to be well know.

A colligative property; Colligative properties of solutions are properties that depend upon the concentration of solute molecules or ions, but not upon the identity of the solute. Colligative properties include vapor pressure lowering, boiling point elevation, freezing point depression, and osmotic pressure.

The identity of the solute or the dissolved thing, in water for example, is a function of whether it is positive, negative, dipole, or neutral, all of which are connected to the EM force. Colligative properties are not dependent on the EM force, or any of the standard four forces. It is only dependent on the numbers of units. One can mix and match and always get the same experimental numbers for osmotic experiments as longs there are the same number of units. Colligative properties are based on entropy. This entropy can be measured, since one is dealing with states of matter on each side of the membrane, and the direction of the second law.

With osmosis, the semi-permeable membrane prevents the solutes from flowing in both directions, but it allows water, for example, to move across the membrane driven by entropy; second law. Water does not care what is on the other side. It treats all the same. The pressure head that forms; osmotic pressure, is driven by an entropic force, as water attempts to solubilize all the solute units on the other side of the membrane. I call this the entropic force since it is a force base on entropy. I am not sure why this is not part of physics, since it is a key part of life, which is natural. Life uses entropy/dark energy to give it that edge over inanimate matter.

The osmotic affect looks the same; based on scale, as what we attribute to the impact of dark energy on matter. The universe is solubilizing its matter, by expanding space-time, just like ions are being separated by water This appears to be generating an expanding force; osmotic pressure. In the case of the universe, the speed of light is the semi-permeable membrane. It allows passage of energy and space-time, between C and inertial, but matter, as the solute is stuck on one side of the membrane. Matter cannot move at C or occupy a C reference.

Where physics has a problem with this model, is connected to the liquid state of osmosis. The liquid state is unique compared to the gas or solid states, which are the preferred states of physics genesis theory. A gas can only come under pressure but it cannot be placed under tension. It is defined by partial pressure. A solid can come under pressure and tension but it cannot reach steady state if both act at the same time. It will stay in motion if you push and pull; linear or angular.

A liquid is different in that it can be in both tension and pressure at the same time and reach a steady state. For example the atmosphere over a glass of water will exert pressure, while also creating surface tension. The micro and macro states of a liquid can conflict at steady state, with the overall system not in conflict.

Physics needs to look at the liquid state for universe modeling. This allows the contraction of matter due to gravity; pressure, to be consistent with the expansion of space-time; surface tension.  One does not need to add anything new since entropy bridges the gap. This is also how you interface life to physics since life is liquid state os it can make use of entropic forces to regulate states of entropy.

[puppypower (OP)]

Let me attempt to define entropy in contrast to the concept of randomness, since the two are often confused and assumed to be same thing. Entropy is a  state variable meaning it has a specific value for any given state. This can be measured in the lab. The entropy of water at 25C and 1 atmosphere of pressure is188.8 joules/(mole K).

This value of entropy, for this specific state of water, does not change over time. It will be there same today, yesterday and tomorrow. The entropy of any given state is not time dependent, since it is constant, over time. A million years from today this will be the same measured value. Entropy is more based on the distances that characterize the matter within that state; liquid versus gas. Entropy is an aspect of distance potential.

Random is the opposite. If we have two dice, the state we call snake eyes, is not dependent on where you throw the dice or how close the dice land. The appearance of snake eyes is only dependent on time. It is a matter of time; number of tosses, before the random state called snake eyes appear. Over time, there will be an average interval of time between snake eyes. The state of snake eyes is time dependent. Random is an aspect of time potential.

Entropy and randomness, as often merged together,r are approximated using the concept of space-time, but neither are fully influenced by both space and time. To use an analogy, In the speed of light reference, the fabric of space-time separates into separate threads of space and threads of time, with each able to act independently.  Entropy and random are two examples. 

In terms of the osmotic model of the liquid state universe, that contains an entropic force, along with four other attractive forces, the speed of light C, is the semi-permeable membrane. Separate time and space, as manifest as entropy and random can permeate the membrane from, the C side, into the inertial side. This has an impact on the solute phases of universal matter. Entropy has to increase due to distance potential while randomness appears due to time potential. There are also other things like acceleration; force, due to extra time potential. Acceleration is d/t/t or space-time plus time. Distance potential adds pressure to force; force/d2, which can alter the entropy by changing states.

[Bored chemist]

I am not looking at entropy in terms of philosophy but in terms of experiment science.

Since you are  messing about with how you (and only you) choose to define entropy then you are certainly not doing science of any sort.
It's possible that, for a rather sloppy definition of philosophy, you are doing that.

It's not that the entropy of water is a random number. It's a measure of the randomness of (mainly) the positions of the water molecules.
And, as I already pointed out, energy and entropy have different units so it's essentially dishonest (and certainly unscientific) of you to say "the entropy of liquid water is :1.8909 kJ ˣ mol-1 (25 °C) "
It's about 6.6 J/mol/ K
What you have misunderstood is that the enthalpy (which you quoted)  isn't  the same as entropy.

Go and learn some thermodynamics.

[Bill S]

Did I miss it among all the verbal meanderings, or did no one mention S=k log W? 

Even to my non-mathematical mind, this provides the clearest picture of entropy. It took me a while to get my head round it, but it was worth the effort.

With reference to the OP; I'm at a bit of a loss to see how this equation could be applied to dark energy

[Bored chemist]

I did consider mentioning that Boltzmann was probably spinning in his grave, on which that equation is inscribed.

[Bill S]

I did consider mentioning that Boltzmann was probably spinning in his grave, on which that equation is inscribed.

I guess spinning would increase entropy.

Seriously, though; why?

[jeffreyH]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann%27s_entropy_formula
Note that this has to do with statistical mechanics. Energy of any kind is a scalar. You can sum over energies but that is not related to dark energy. You only start to understand properly once you have completed an amount of study.

[Bored chemist]

I did consider mentioning that Boltzmann was probably spinning in his grave, on which that equation is inscribed.

I guess spinning would increase entropy.

Seriously, though; why?

Well, there's this
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/turn_in_one%27s_grave
and this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Boltzmann#/media/File:Zentralfriedhof_Vienna_-_Boltzmann.JPG

[Bill S]

I know what turning in one's grave implies.  I was trying to find out if you knew of some shortcoming of the Boltzmann equation that would cause it to be an embarrassment to Ludwig. 

[puppypower (OP)]

From Wikipedia:

The concept of entropy developed in response to the observation that a certain amount of functional energy released from combustion reactions is always lost to dissipation or friction and is thus not transformed into useful work. Early heat-powered engines such as Thomas Savery's (1698), the Newcomen engine (1712) and the Cugnot steam tricycle (1769) were inefficient, converting less than two percent of the input energy into useful work output; a great deal of useful energy was dissipated or lost. Over the next two centuries, physicists investigated this puzzle of lost energy; the result was the concept of entropy.


In 1865, Clausius gave irreversible heat loss, or what he had previously been calling "equivalence-value", a name:[5][6]
“I propose to name the quantity S the entropy of the system, after the Greek word [τροπη trope], the transformation. I have deliberately chosen the word entropy to be as similar as possible to the word energy: the two quantities to be named by these words are so closely related in physical significance that a certain similarity in their names appears to be appropriate.

For example the entropy of liquid water is :1.8909 kJ ˣ mol-1 (25 °C) , for solid ice Ih: -6.005 J ˣ mol-1 (0 °C, 101.325 kPa), and for gas: 48.20 kJ ˣ mol-1 (100 °C, 101.325 kPa). These numbers are constant and not random and are used in chemical engineering calculations to do an accurate energy balance. Again, describing how entropy works is not consistent across the board but the experimental values for entropy are standards for various states of matter.

Lost energy from our universe was coined dark energy to make to appear modern. The entropy or dark energy is contained within the new and evolving states. The main difference is we can measure entropy in the lab for any state, but dark energy has never been directly measured to make sure it is real. Dark energy is back to 1700 trying to describe the irreversible lost energy. It is not yet at the lab stage making direct measurements. However, it is needed to close the universal energy balance. 

Statistical mechanics is an approximation method which assumes random states, yet for any given state of matter entropy is a constant. Can anyone explain how random always adds to the same constant for any given state, such as water at 25C and 1 atmosphere?

We live in a quantum universe, which states that only certain states are possible. Random falsely assumes any state is possible and has finite odds, albeit some are very small. The fixed entropy for any given state is more consistent with a quantum universe than with the approximated random universe. How do you get a system of random components to always add up to a constant value? One way is to use a fixed amount of lost energy.