[iko]

You're right as usual, George.

Now let me remind that: "Even dealing with TB, never forget vitamin D"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070514140525.htm
from the Imperial College of London, 5/2007

Never mind, it is my duty around here!  []

ikod

Quackery...revisited in 2006!

This comes out crossing "cod liver oil" and Quackery on Google Images!

http://www.lung.ca/tb/images/full_archive/006_codLiverOil.jpg

...Near the beginning of TB treatment in sanatoria, it became known that the sun helped to kill TB bacteria (see heliotherapy). When the Sun's UV rays hit human skin, vitamin D is produced. Naturally, when cod fish were found to be rich in vitamin D, it followed that their oil was sold as "liquid sunshine" (this was a real advertisement in the Valley Echo, March 1944). Cod Liver Oil is still used in "traditional" medicine today, and as an important dietary supplement, but no real evidence exists that it helps to cure tuberculosis.

http://www.lung.ca/tb/tbhistory/treatment/

...NO real evidence? Let's cross quickly "Tuberculosis and vitamin d" on PubMed database...

Toll-like receptor triggering of a vitamin D-mediated human antimicrobial response.

Liu PT, Stenger S, Li H et al.
In innate immune responses, activation of Toll-like receptors (TLRs) triggers direct antimicrobial activity against intracellular bacteria, which in murine, but not human, monocytes and macrophages is mediated principally by nitric oxide. We report here that TLR activation of human macrophages up-regulated expression of the vitamin D receptor and the vitamin D-1-hydroxylase genes, leading to induction of the antimicrobial peptide cathelicidin and killing of intracellular Mycobacterium tuberculosis. We also observed that sera from African-American individuals, known to have increased susceptibility to tuberculosis, had low 25-hydroxyvitamin D and were inefficient in supporting cathelicidin messenger RNA induction. These data support a link between TLRs and vitamin D-mediated innate immunity and suggest that differences in ability of human populations to produce vitamin D may contribute to susceptibility to microbial infection.
Science. 2006 Mar 24;311(5768):1770-3. Epub 2006 Feb 23.

The effect of vitamin D as supplementary treatment
 in patients with moderately advanced pulmonary tuberculous lesion.

Nursyam EW, Amin Z, Rumended CM.
Dept.Int.Med.University of Indonesia-dr.Cipto Mangunkusumo Hospital, Jakarta.

AIM: to compare the vitamin D group of pulmonary tuberculosis patients with a placebo group in terms of clinical improvement, nutritional status, sputum conversion, and radiological improvement. METHODS: sixty seven tuberculosis patient visiting the Pulmonary Clinic, of Cipto Mangunkusumo Hospital, Jakarta, from January 1st to August 31st, 2001 were included in this study. The subjects were randomised to receive vitamin D (0.25 mg/day) or placebo in a double blind method, during the 6th initial week of Tb treatment. The rate of sputum conversion, complete blood counts, blood chemistry as well as radiologic examination were evaluated. RESULTS: there were more male patients than females (39:28), 78.7% were in the productive age group, 71.6% had low nutritional status, 62.4% with low education level, and 67.2% with low income. One hundred percent of the vitamin D group and only 76.7% of the placebo group had sputum conversion. This difference is statistically significant (p=0.002). CONCLUSION: the sputum conversion had no correlation with the hemoglobin level, blood clotting time, calcium level, lymphocyte count, age, sex, and nutritional status. There were more subjects with radiological improvement in the vitamin D group.

Acta Med Indones. 2006 Jan-Mar;38(1):3-5.


Prevalence and associations of vitamin D deficiency in foreign-born persons with tuberculosis in London.
Ustianowski A, Shaffer R, Collin S, Wilkinson RJ, Davidson RN.
Dept.Infect.Trop.Med.- Northwick Park Hospital, Harrow, Middlesex HA1 3UJ, UK. ustianowski@doctors.org.uk

OBJECTIVES: The incidence of tuberculosis (TB) is high amongst foreign-born persons resident in developed countries. Vitamin D is important in the host defence against TB in vitro and deficiency may be an acquired risk factor for this disease. We aimed to determine the incidence and associations of vitamin D deficiency in TB patients diagnosed at an infectious diseases unit in London, UK. METHODS: Case-note analysis of 210 unselected patients diagnosed with TB who had plasma vitamin D (25(OH)D3) levels routinely measured. Prevalence of 25(OH)D3 deficiency and its relationship to ethnic origin, religion, site of TB, sex, age, duration in the UK, month of 25(OH)D3 estimation and TB diagnosis were determined. RESULTS: Of 210 patients 76% were 25(OH)D3 deficient and 56% had undetectable levels. 70/82 Indian, 24/28 East African Asian, 29/34 Somali, 14/19 Pakistani and Afghani, 16/22 Sri Lankan and 2/6 other African patients were deficient (with 58, 17, 23, 9, 6 and 1 having undetectable levels, respectively). Only 0/6 white Europeans and 1/8 Chinese/South East Asians had low plasma 25(OH)D3 levels. Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs all had equivalent rates of deficiency though Hindus were more likely to have undetectable levels (odds ratio 1.87, 95% CI 1.27-2.76). There was no significant association between 25(OH)D3 level and site of TB or duration of residence in the UK. There was no apparent seasonal variation in either TB diagnosis or 25(OH)D3 level. CONCLUSIONS: 25(OH)D3 deficiency commonly associates with TB among all ethnic groups apart from white Europeans, and Chinese/South East Asians. Our data support a lack of sunlight exposure and potentially a vegetarian diet as contributors to this deficiency.

J Infect. 2005 Jun;50(5):432-7.



Those nurses and doctors should be proud and rest in peace.
They gave cod liver oil to their TB patients for years
without any controlled study or scientific evidence,
wisely adopting the old "ex-adjuvantibus" criteria.
They did just the right thing to do in those days
when treatments available were unsatisfactory
and only some patients recovered completely.
Evidence is slowly coming out
more than fifty years later.

ikod

http://www.prolocoborno.it/foto/img/sm-giallo.jpg

http://www.lung.ca/tb/images/full_archive/081_sun_treatment.jpg

Before the availability of drugs that successfully cured the body of tubercular infections, a widely accepted treatment for non-pulmonary tuberculosis was sunbathing. The sun had sometimes been blamed for increased activity in tubercular infection of the lungs and was therefore not used to treat this form of tuberculosis. However, the Sun offered several curative properties to those suffering from other types of tuberculosis. Sun treatment was used in the treatment of tuberculosis of the glands, bones, joints, peritoneum, skin, eyes, genito-urinary tract, and others.

There were several reasons for the prescription of sun treatment to tuberculosis patients. First of all, the sun acts as a bactericide, killing the Tubercular bacillus organisms that cause the disease. Exposure to moderately hot temperatures for extended periods of time is sufficient to kill off these bacteria and clear up infections. Furthermore, ergosterol, present in the skin in converted by the sun’s UV rays into vitamin D, which was thought to do further damage to the TB bacilli.
 
Sunlamps like the ones pictured here were often used to replace natural sunlight in sun-therapy, or "heliotherapy" for tuberculosis (ca. 1925).

      

http://home.tiscalinet.ch/biografien/images/koch.jpg
http://www.lung.ca/tb/images/061_sun_lamps.jpg
http://www.mmaonline.net/Publications/MNMed2005/November/Images/sun.gif

"Il sole dona la vita, il sole se la riprende" M.U. Dianzani 1975.

[Quantum_Vaccuum (OP)]

wait, let me get this right, so TB originated from badgers?

[another_someone]

wait, let me get this right, so TB originated from badgers?

I don't think we actually know (I would not even be sure that cows, humans, and badgers, forms the entire list of species affected by TB).

Badgers are a risk to cows because they can move from field to field, so they can get infected by a cow in one field, and then pass the infection on to a cow in another field.  We don't know which got it first (or if they both got it from somewhere else).

[Quantum_Vaccuum (OP)]

so wouldn't other small mammals also be a big cause to TB?

[another_someone]

so wouldn't other small mammals also be a big cause to TB?

There is no reason it should be limited to small mammals (although I suppose in the highly managed environments of Europe, small mammals tend to get around more); but as I said above, I don't actually know which other species are susceptible (although I did see reference to some variants of TB affecting voles).

One interesting issue is that the bacteria that causes TB is closely related to the bacteria that causes leprosy.

Reading background to this, I noticed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontuberculous_mycobacteria

Over the past 25 years, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of NTM cases seen by clinicians across the United States and Canada.

The correct name of NTM is "nontuberculous mycobacteria." There is no such bacteria called "nontuberculosis microbacteria."
Mycobacteria are a family of small, rod-shaped bacilli that can be classified into 3 main groups for the purpose of diagnosis and treatment:

• Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex which can cause tuberculosis: M. tuberculosis, M. bovis, M. africanum, , M. microti and M. canetti.
• M. leprae which causes Hansen's disease or leprosy.
• Nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) are all the other mycobacteria which can cause pulmonary disease resembling tuberculosis, lymphadenitis, skin disease, or disseminated disease. Pulmonary NTM infections include: MAC (mycobacterium avian complex), which includes M. avium and M. intracellulare; faster-growing M. abscessus, M. chelonae, and M. fortuitum; and less common strains such as M. kansasii and M. xenopi.

Unlike TB and leprosy, which are primarily spread by human-to-human contact, NTM is believed to be contracted from the environment, hence its alternative label, "environmental bacteria." NTM is believed to exist naturally in soil and water.

[iko]

Yeah, atypical Mycobacteria
are between the 'fastidious'
germs I am so much fond of...
They are not 'returning' at
all, they have been around
us all the time!

    

http://www.humanillnesses.com/images/hdc_0001_0001_0_img0067.jpg
http://www.scielo.br/img/revistas/babt/v47n6/a14fig04.gif
http://www.acquaportal.it/_ARCHIVIO/ARTICOLI/Danilo_ronchi/images/panoramica-01.jpg

Exposure to Mycobacterium marinum can lead to a rare infection known as swimming pool granuloma" or "aquarium granuloma." About 3 weeks after the bacteria enters through a break in the skin, usually on the hands, reddish bumps appear. This infection can be prevented by avoiding contact with contaminated water and wearing gloves or washing thoroughly when cleaning aquariums.
Custom Medical Stock Photo, Inc.

more about atypical mycobacteria:

 

http://www.humanillnesses.com/Infectious-Diseases-He-My/Mycobacterial-Infections-Atypical.html

[Quantum_Vaccuum (OP)]

so wouldn't other small mammals also be a big cause to TB?

There is no reason it should be limited to small mammals (although I suppose in the highly managed environments of Europe, small mammals tend to get around more); but as I said above, I don't actually know which other species are susceptible (although I did see reference to some variants of TB affecting voles).

One interesting issue is that the bacteria that causes TB is closely related to the bacteria that causes leprosy.

Reading background to this, I noticed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontuberculous_mycobacteria

Over the past 25 years, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of NTM cases seen by clinicians across the United States and Canada.

The correct name of NTM is "nontuberculous mycobacteria." There is no such bacteria called "nontuberculosis microbacteria."
Mycobacteria are a family of small, rod-shaped bacilli that can be classified into 3 main groups for the purpose of diagnosis and treatment:

• Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex which can cause tuberculosis: M. tuberculosis, M. bovis, M. africanum, , M. microti and M. canetti.
• M. leprae which causes Hansen's disease or leprosy.
• Nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) are all the other mycobacteria which can cause pulmonary disease resembling tuberculosis, lymphadenitis, skin disease, or disseminated disease. Pulmonary NTM infections include: MAC (mycobacterium avian complex), which includes M. avium and M. intracellulare; faster-growing M. abscessus, M. chelonae, and M. fortuitum; and less common strains such as M. kansasii and M. xenopi.

Unlike TB and leprosy, which are primarily spread by human-to-human contact, NTM is believed to be contracted from the environment, hence its alternative label, "environmental bacteria." NTM is believed to exist naturally in soil and water.

my friend is researching TB for a science report, and he told me that any mammal is capibile of having TB =[

[Quantum_Vaccuum (OP)]

Yeah, atypical Mycobacteria
are between the 'fastidious'
germs I am so much fond of...
They are not 'returning' at
all, they have been around us all the time!

so are they just becoming more resistant to our immunes and vaccinations?

[iko]

Tuberculosis bacterial strains are becoming more and more resistant to standard chemotherapy.
Hygienic standards and social condition (poverty, malnutrition etc.) seem to make the real difference and allow the slow rise of these dreadful pathogens.
In the old days a drop of TB cases was observed either in vaccinated or unvaccinated populations, at the same rate, when health conditions had been simultaneously improved.

ikod

As I wrote before, vaccination has big limits in TB.
This type of bacteria interacts with the defense system in such a peculiar way that an healthy lifestyle (proper food, hygienic standards) might(*) play a major role in keeping this pathogen under control.
Immunodeficient patients (AIDS) are at risk and a sort of reservoir for this germ.
Poverty, promiscuity and lack of hygienic facilities in underdeveloped countries are contributing to the new epidemics.  Obviously some strains of TB bacteria became resistant to specific drugs that had been used over the years, and this is a problem for affected patients.
For the whole population -as it was in the old days- prevention and isolation of infectious patients are the most important presidia against TB.
New drugs are under investigation.
Old stuff is being 'rediscovered': vitamin D (cod liver oil had been used in TB patients) may help over weeks and months, preventing reactivation or supporting standard treatment of TB sufferers.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070514140525.htm
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=5065.0

ikod

(*)'might' here stands for:

"I'm not a professor, this is just a chat, plus I learned English from a book!"  []

[jordan23]

Another source is people returning from 3rd world countries who had not been priorly inocculated.
newbielink:http://www.pqdvd.com/windows-mobile-tv.html [nonactive]
newbielink:http://www.pqdvd.com/windows-mobile-tv.html [nonactive]

[iko]

from:  http://www.who.int/vaccine_research/diseases/tb/vaccine_development/bcg/en/index.html

BCG - the current vaccine for tuberculosis

Bacille Calmette Guerin (BCG) is the current vaccine for tuberculosis. It was first used in 1921. BCG is the only vaccine available today for protection against tuberculosis. It is most effective in protecting children from the disease.

History of the vaccine
Bacille Calmette Guerin (BCG) containes a live attenuated (weakened) strain of Mycobacterium bovis. It was originally isolated from a cow with tuberculosis by Calmette and Guren who worked in Paris at the Institute Pasteur. This strain was carefully subcultured every three weeks for many years. After about thirteen years the strain was seen to be less virulent for animals such as cows and guinea pigs. During these thirteen years many undefined genetic changes occurred to change the original stain of M. bovis. This altered organism was called BCG. In addition to the loss of virulence, other changes to BCG were noted. These included a pronounced change in the appearance of colonies grown in the laboratory. Colonies of M. bovis have a rough granular appearance whereas colonies of BCG are moist and smooth.

Today there are several strains of “BCG”.
BCG was first used as a vaccine to protect humans against tuberculosis in 1921. At first, cultures of BCG were maintained in Paris. Later, it was subcultured and distributed to several laboratories throughout the world where the vaccine strain called BCG continued to be maintained by continuous subculture. After many years it became clear that the various strains maintained ain different laboratories were no longer identical to each other. Indeed, it was likely that all the various strains maintained by continuous subculture continued to undergo undefined genetic changes. Indeed, the "original" strain of BCG maintained at in Paris had continued to change during the subcultures needed to maintain the viability of the culture. To limit these continuing changes the procedures needed to maintain the strain were modified. Today, the organism is maintained in several laboratories using a "seed lot" production technique to limit further genetic variation using freeze-dried (also called lyphilized) cells so that each batch starts with the same cells.

SafetyAfter extensive tests in animals, BCG was first used as a vaccine in 1921. It was given orally to infants. Since this time the vaccine has been widely used. Today, it is estimated that more than 1 billion people have received BCG.

BCG is widely used and the safety of this vaccine has not been a serious issue until recently. There is a concern that use of the vaccine in persons who are immune compromised may result is an infection caused by the BCG itself. Also, even among immune competent persons, local reactions, including ulceration at the site of vaccination may result in shedding of live organisms which could infect others who may be immune compromised.

The early use of BCG was marked by a tragic accident. In Lubeck more than 25% of the approximately 250 infants who received a batch of the vaccine developed tuberculosis. It was later recognized that this batch was accidentally contaminated with a virulent strain of M. tuberculosis.

BCG production and substrains
The BCG vaccines that are currently in use are produced at several (seven?) sites throughout the world. These vaccines are not identical. To what extent they differ in efficacy and safety in humans is not clear at present. Some differences in molecular and genetic characteristics are known. What is not known is if the "BCG" from one manufacturer is "better" than one produced at another site. Each BCG is now know by the location where it is produced. For example, we have BCG (Paris), BCG (Copenhagen), BCG (Tice) and BCG (Montreal) among others.

Another source is people returning from 3rd world countries who had not been priorly inocculated.mobile TV
pocket pc TV

It is not so easy.
Malnourished children and adults living in precarious hygienic condition may have lower immune defenses and cannot be vaccinated safely against TB.

[Seany]

Hi..

I know someone who has recently gotten Tuberculosis.. God knows how.
They are only about 7-8 years old.
We are all very curious as to how he got it..
I was wondering what the symptoms were?

He needs to get treated for over 6 months, 2 pills everyday.
And his little sister 5-6 years old has also got it off him, pretty easily.

I am curious of the symtoms, and whether it is dangerous for his age?
And whether it really does take 6 months for this treatment?

[Karen W.]

I have heard that treatment is long!.. I wonder if the treatment is efficient to rid them of it or do they only treat symptoms... can they get rid of it completely???

I heard that back New York way they had several cases back there also!

So it never really went away eh?

[Karen W.]

Yeah, atypical Mycobacteria
are between the 'fastidious'
germs I am so much fond of...
They are not 'returning' at
all, they have been around
us all the time!

   

http://www.humanillnesses.com/images/hdc_0001_0001_0_img0067.jpg
http://www.scielo.br/img/revistas/babt/v47n6/a14fig04.gif
http://www.acquaportal.it/_ARCHIVIO/ARTICOLI/Danilo_ronchi/images/panoramica-01.jpg

Exposure to Mycobacterium marinum can lead to a rare infection known as swimming pool granuloma" or "aquarium granuloma." About 3 weeks after the bacteria enters through a break in the skin, usually on the hands, reddish bumps appear. This infection can be prevented by avoiding contact with contaminated water and wearing gloves or washing thoroughly when cleaning aquariums.
Custom Medical Stock Photo, Inc.

more about atypical mycobacteria:

 

http://www.humanillnesses.com/Infectious-Diseases-He-My/Mycobacterial-Infections-Atypical.html

Yikes are those lesions from the  disease?

[Karen W.]

I was immunized as a child. Can someone get the disease latter without re immunization or is that permanent protection??

[another_someone]

I was immunized as a child. Can some one get the disease latter without reimmunization or is that permanent protection??

I believe the immunisation does wear off after a time, but it will give a degree of permanent protection, but reduced protection as time progresses.

[Karen W.]

Thanks George.. do you know if they offer a second TB shot as one reaches older ages?

[another_someone]

Hi..

I know someone who has recently gotten Tuberculosis.. God knows how.
They are only about 7-8 years old.
We are all very curious as to how he got it..
I was wondering what the symptoms were?

He needs to get treated for over 6 months, 2 pills everyday.
And his little sister 5-6 years old has also got it off him, pretty easily.

I am curious of the symtoms, and whether it is dangerous for his age?
And whether it really does take 6 months for this treatment?

Generally, TB is considered not that easy to catch - it usually is only contagious in between people who are in close proximity to each other for a long time (which is why it was usually considered a disease that was prominent amongst people living in crowded environments).

The problem is that it is a slow growing bacteria, so it can take many years before you actually get any symptoms.  Mostly the disease remains dormant, and you can be infected for decades without knowing it, but if you are run down, or your immune system is compromised (maybe caused by malnourishment, or some other illness), then the TB that has been dormant can get a grip.

It is because it is slow growing that it is not easy to catch, but if you do catch it, it can be pretty stubborn and can take a long time to get rid of.

There are different types of TB, and some are more common in non-humans, but can spread to humans (this used to be a problem with drinking unpasteurised milk, where you could get bovine TB).

[another_someone]

Thanks George.. do you know if they offer a second TB shot as one reaches older ages?

Have not heard of anything - but until relatively recently, the feeling was that TB was becoming less of a threat, and so maybe it was felt the boosters would not be needed.

[Seany]

Hi..

I know someone who has recently gotten Tuberculosis.. God knows how.
They are only about 7-8 years old.
We are all very curious as to how he got it..
I was wondering what the symptoms were?

He needs to get treated for over 6 months, 2 pills everyday.
And his little sister 5-6 years old has also got it off him, pretty easily.

I am curious of the symtoms, and whether it is dangerous for his age?
And whether it really does take 6 months for this treatment?

Generally, TB is considered not that easy to catch - it usually is only contagious in between people who are in close proximity to each other for a long time (which is why it was usually considered a disease that was prominent amongst people living in crowded environments).

The problem is that it is a slow growing bacteria, so it can take many years before you actually get any symptoms.  Mostly the disease remains dormant, and you can be infected for decades without knowing it, but if you are run down, or your immune system is compromised (maybe caused by malnourishment, or some other illness), then the TB that has been dormant can get a grip.

It is because it is slow growing that it is not easy to catch, but if you do catch it, it can be pretty stubborn and can take a long time to get rid of.

There are different types of TB, and some are more common in non-humans, but can spread to humans (this used to be a problem with drinking unpasteurised milk, where you could get bovine TB).

I am pretty sure it's not about drinking unpasteurised milk that he got TB..
It might be that he's had TB for a while, but have never shown symptoms and it may have just appeared because he might be under a lot of stress. He is currently taking piano, violin, and english lessons as well as school everyday. (It's Korea I tell you.. Everyone attends classes after school, most people my age come back home at about 12 at night)

But his sister seemed to catch it pretty easily from him. We are worried their parents are going to catch it too.