[Make it Lady]

OK my theory still stands and it is the onion you are allergic to. If you read any info. on IBS they always give this as the thing to avoid.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Nope. Jude loves onions, raw, cooked, fried, boiled, leeks, garlic, wild garlic onion is used in many foods we eat that do not affect her one bit. In fact we just went out to a fireds who most certainly does not use Bisto Gravy Granules but makes her gravy from boiling bones, red wine, rosmary meat juices etc and Jude had no problems after. Bisto Browns Bisto Seasons Bisto thickens and makes you go!

[Bored chemist]

"Unlike progesterone, synthetic progestins are not molecularly identical to the hormones found naturally in the body."
OK that's exactly my point. They are not the same so the body can tell them apart.

The stuff pictured below progesterone isn't progesterone, it's medroxyprogesterone acetate
What I have been saying is that the body cannot distinguish natural materials from synthetic ones.
That's not the same as saying it can't distinguish progesterone from medroxyprogesterone acetate.

The fact is that medroxyprogesterone acetate isn't synthetic progesterone- it's something else.

There's nothing magic about "natural" compounds; this was established in 1828.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_W%C3%B6hler

[Make it Lady]

Nope. Jude loves onions, raw, cooked, fried, boiled, leeks, garlic, wild garlic onion is used in many foods we eat that do not affect her one bit. In fact we just went out to a fireds who most certainly does not use Bisto Gravy Granules but makes her gravy from boiling bones, red wine, rosmary meat juices etc and Jude had no problems after. Bisto Browns Bisto Seasons Bisto thickens and makes you go!

Perhaps they should sell it next to the laxatives! Do you remember the chocolate with the pictures of the toilets on...Ex-Lax. You could call it Bistolax.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Irritable bowel syndrome 
 
IBS can cause repeated long-term bouts of pain
Irritable bowel sydrome (IBS) is a condition which causes pain and misery to millions of people worldwide.
However, it remains something of a mystery to medical science.

What is it?

As the name suggests, IBS is a disorder which affects the lower digestive tract.

The contents of the bowel are moved along by a rhythmic tightening and relaxation of the muscles of the intestinal wall - a process called peristalsis.

It appears that peristalsis is stronger and more frequent in people with IBS.

This can cause a wide range of symptoms, including regular abdominal pain, diarrhoea and constipation.

Who gets it?

The condition is thought to affect up to one in five of the population.

However, it may be even more common because it is thought that many people never seek a medical opinion.

It is particuarly common among people aged 20 to 30, and twice as common in women than men.

What are the symptoms?

The main symptoms of IBS are:


Repeated abdominal pains and tenderness

Diarrhoea

Constipation

A bloated feeling

Headache
Other symptoms can include:


Burping

Bad breath

Tiredness

Nausea

A sense of incomplete emptying after going to the toilet
What causes IBS?

Nobody knows for sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/5306656.stm
 

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Product Development

It's not just rival products that Bisto has to beat, the brand also has to remain healthy and contemporary.

Over the last century there have been enormous changes to how and what we eat, most notably in the last 25 years.

The family is far less likely to sit down to a traditional roast dinner every evening and far more likely to eat separately - wanting something convenient and quick.

Bisto history 
1908 - Powder launched
1919 - Bisto Kids born
1979 - Granules launched
1984 - Relaunched granules and new onion granules
1991 - 'Best' is launched
2000 - "Aah Bisto" slogan re-introduced after 13 years 

Bisto has had to adapt.

New product development over the years has included Bisto granules, which came on the market in 1979 with the advent of the kettle.

The granules that dissolve in hot water got a make-over in the 1990's and a new product, Bisto Best, arrived on our shelves.

Best is a premium product sold in a glass jar to give it an air of quality as well as convenience. The majority of product is now sold in granule form.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/education/2332415.stm
 

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Irritable bowel syndrome 
Who gets it?

The condition is thought to affect up to one in five of the population.

However, it may be even more common because it is thought that many people never seek a medical opinion.

It is particuarly common among people aged 20 to 30, and twice as common in women than men.
What causes IBS?

Nobody knows for sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/5306656.stm

If you look at the dates that Bisto Gravy Granules were introduced and later modified it would appear that there is a link relating to the ages that are most likely to develop IBS in the other BBC Report. Is it a coincidence that this age group closely matches the introduction of this product? How many other products have the same combination of additives?

When were these aditives introduced in other products?

The older generation would continue to make their own version of gravy unaffected by the product, whereas the younger generations would be using these faster easier products more frequently.

Incidentally, the Bisto Powder has only 1 additive and this product does not affect my wife.

Just a coincidence? I think not!

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

BC You go your way and I will continue to go my way with regards to what I eat and drink. I do not do Hydrogenated vegetable or even partially Hydrogenated Vegetable oil (in anything) I do not eat many E numbers other than those that sneak past my guard like those in Bisto Gravy Granules where you least expect them to be. I even skin fruit nowadays because of the chemicals they spray on them, and I agree I have eaten lots of e numbers in the past and lived to tell the tale.

Progesterone from the Wild Yam compared to that extracted from the urine of a pregnant Horse to me at least seems a long way off being identical. The way we analyse these compounds may well at present show them to be very close in structure, but this does not mean they are identical when administered and a few years down the road from now who is to say that the way we analyse compounds in future might not itself follow a less than identical route when compared to what we know today?

I know we have a lot of disagreements BC. But I do respect you and your views very much, and in no way would I ever want to try to belittle you or your vast knowledge of chemical compounds.

With regards to Bisto Gravy Granules, which was the argument in this thread. We have identified it as being the primary cause of Jude’s problem with her bowels having eliminated everything else by eating different meals without using it, including roast dinners made with natural gravy. We are not sure what it is about the product that causes Jude and others to get diarrhoea after eating this, and probably never will know which of the ingredients or combination of ingredients is causing it. But causing it, “it most definitely is”!

[Bored chemist]

"I know we have a lot of disagreements BC. But I do respect you and your views very much, and in no way would I ever want to try to belittle you or your vast knowledge of chemical compounds."

Then stop doing so.


When I tell you that progesterone is progesterone don't tell me it isn't. Don't say things like "Progesterone from the Wild Yam compared to that extracted from the urine of a pregnant Horse to me at least seems a long way off being identical." unless you have some evidence that they are not identical.
Do you imagine the little molecules sitting there discussing how it was better in the old days when they were in a mare's bladder? If the molecules can't remember, then how could the body know?
Don't insult the whole of the profession of chemistry by saying things like "The way we analyse these compounds may well at present show them to be very close in structure, but this does not mean they are identical ".
Do you understand enough about chemistry to make that statement with any authority?
No- of course you don't- if you did you would know it's nonsense.

This is a scientific website- stop posting this sort of stuff here because it isn't science

As for
"I do not eat many E numbers other than those that sneak past my guard "
It just shows that you don't seem to understand that the world is made of chemicals and some of them have e numbers. Vitamin C has an E number- if you really avoided E300 you would be dead from scurvy. What about E1510?
Do you really get by without alcohol? Even if you don't drink do you not know that it's present in a lot of fruit etc due to natural fermentation.
Do you think gold (which is "E numbered" as a colourant) is worth avoiding?

I asked the question before (and nobody has answered yet).
 How can glutamate derived from soy sauce be any different, from the body's point of view, from glutamate produced "artificially"?

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

http://www.askdrhelen.com/hormone-replacement-therapy/bioidentical-diosgenin.html

[Make it Lady]

Tell me about it, I'm having a bout at the moment. Did you know that you can also get irritable bladder too. They quite often occur together. I would call it overactive rather than irritable. I have read a really good book called 'stop your belly aching.' It is by Dr. Mansfield ISBN 0-285-63618-9.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Jude has improved to the point where she is no longer having any problems. I believe we have nailed the product that was disrupting her body functions. She did have a problem with her bladder at the same time oddly enough, thanks for mentioning this.

May I suggest that you make a note of what you have eaten or drank when you get a flare up of IBS to see if there is a product there every time you get symptoms. It may even be several different products that contain the same ingredients, but could prove very interesting.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

BC "I don't seem to understand that the World is made up of chemicals"? I would rather get my vitamins and minerals from fruit and vegetables in my diet rather than from some chemical company making a fortune out of patents thanks :)Although I do have vitamin C tabs and cod liver oil and fish oil at hand. I also prefer natural products providing they don't have anything in them that should not be there like parabans etc.

I said I do not belittle you. So why do you try to belittle me? I DO NOT INSULT THE WHOLE OF THE CHEMISTRY PROFESSION BY SAYING THAT THE WAY WE ANALYSE CHEMICALS TODAY MIGHT NOT BE THE SAME IN THE FUTURE. This is a fact! it's called progress!

Several times now you have threatend my right to post on this forum by saying my posts are unscientific and unwelcome here.

Uncomfortable maybe, unscientific to you maybe, to my wife her IBS has now stopped! Go figure that out.
 

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Psychosomatic is often used as a label for Irritable Bowel Syndrome and for many other conditions that are not fully understood.

For the record. My wife has not had a single episode of IBS since we abandoned Bisto Gravy Granules.

Our meals taste very different now and the variety of ways we now make our gravy enhances the meal bringing out the many varied flavours of the vegetables rather than masking the flavours.

This has been a great learning curve for our culinary skills, we are still trying to get the consistency of the gravy right but its becoming an enjoyable test. We have found that you need to mix the plain flour with some fat from the meat and fry the flour turning it into rue before adding the water from the boiled vegetables. Adding an oxo cube enhances the colour and flavour, though boiling up some boned will also provide excellent stock for the gravy.

Anyway. (pats himself on the back) We have solved my wife’s long standing problem in a scientific elimination process and can say in all honesty that Psychosomatic is not applicable to my wife’s IBS.

Now, obviously whatever is in this product is going to show up in many other products and we have not isolated the culprit completely, but we are now very close to finding it out.

What we need now is for other IBS sufferers to identify a product that may be causing their problems and sharing it with us on here by listing the ingredients and if you will excuse the pun (Intended) Let’s get to the bottom of this. 

1: Pharmacol Ther. 2004 Nov;104(2):137-62. Links
Uroguanylin and guanylin peptides: pharmacology and experimental therapeutics.Forte LR Jr.
Medical Research Service, Harry S Truman Memorial Veteran's Hospital, and Department of Medical Pharmacology and Physiology, School of Medicine, University of Missouri, 800 Hospital Drive, Columbia, MO 65201, United States. lrf@missouri.edu

Guanylin, uroguanylin, and the bacterial heat-stable enterotoxin (ST) peptides comprise a new family of cyclic guanosine 3'-5' monophosphate (cGMP)-regulating agonists. The discovery of guanylin and uroguanylin peptides stems from studies of cellular mechanisms underlying a form of secretory diarrhea caused by enteric bacteria. Guanylin, uroguanylin, and microbial ST peptides activate a common apical membrane receptor-guanylate cyclase (R-GC) that elicits large increases in the intestinal secretion of chloride and bicarbonate via the intracellular second messenger, cGMP. Guanylin and uroguanylin were isolated from rat jejunum and opossum urine, respectively. These peptides are endogenous peptide hormones that physiologically regulate R-GC signaling proteins in target cells. Physiological roles for these peptides include the regulation of epithelial cell balance in the intestinal epithelium and modulation of sodium balance through actions in the kidney. The guanylin-uroguanylin-ST peptides are candidate therapeutic agents targeting receptors in the intestine, kidney, and other epithelia. For example, uroguanylin has anti-tumor actions in an animal model for human colon cancer. The ST peptides can be used as diagnostic agents to detect secondary colon cancers by single photon-emitting computed tomography (SPECT) imaging, thus localizing metastatic forms of colon cancer. Other examples of potential therapeutic applications for the guanylin family of cGMP-regulating agonists are: (1) the irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) with constipation, (2) salt-dependent forms of high blood pressure, (3) liver regeneration and repair, and (4) respiratory diseases such as asthma. Competitive pharmacological antagonists of bacterial ST peptides offer a means for treating the diarrhea caused by ST-secreting strains of enteric bacteria.

PMID: 15518884 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Ann Allergy. 1985 Jun;54(6):538-40.Links
Irritable bowel syndrome and hypersensitivity to food.Petitpierre M, Gumowski P, Girard JP.
Food hypersensitivity as a cause of irritable bowel syndrome was investigated by means of exclusion diet and blind provocation. Twelve atopic and twelve non-atopic individuals entered into the study. Skin ***** testing with 20 foods and food additives and RAST specific for food only, were done in all cases. Serum IgE level was also measured. In 14 patients one or several food or additives were shown to induce the typical symptoms of IBS. In at least nine cases of atopy, an IgE-mediated mechanism could be incriminated. Among other potential pathogenetic mechanisms, the presence in the intestinal tract of yeast (Candida albicans, Geotrichum candidum) seems to be of major importance. Yeast apparently favor the development of allergic as well as pseudo-allergic reactions, at least in some patients. Finally, at least in atopic patients complaining of IBS, it is of importance to search for a food component. Dramatic clinical improvements can result from the introduction of an adequate exclusion diet.
PMID: 4014782 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Do we really need more drugs to combat IBS? Look where the research is going now........

1: Expert Opin Investig Drugs. 2008 Feb;17(2):117-30. Links
Recent developments in the therapy of irritable bowel syndrome.Saad RJ, Chey WD.
Division of Gastroenterology, Department of Medicine, University of Michigan Medical Center, Ann Arbor, MI, USA.

There is tremendous activity and excitement in the arena of drug development for the treatment of the irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). Pharmacologic therapy has been largely limited to gut acting therapeutic agents including antidiarrheals, laxatives and antispasmodics that primarily target individual symptoms. Various antidepressants have gained popularity although their efficacy in clinical trials has been modest and their clinical utility is limited by untoward side effects. Serotonergic agents have demonstrated efficacy on the global symptoms of IBS; however, recent concerns about safety have severely limited their use. Recent discoveries regarding the pathophysiology of IBS have revealed numerous potential therapeutic targets. Agents under development include newer serotonergic agents and antidepressants; chloride channel, guanylate cyclase, opioid and motilin receptor ligands; various central, peripheral and autonomic neural receptor ligands; and gut immune modulators.

[Bored chemist]

"I would rather get my vitamins and minerals from fruit and vegetables in my diet rather than from some chemical company making a fortune out of patents thanks "
Fine, just don't pretend that ascorbic acid is any different just because it's in an orange rather than a pill.
Both the pill and the orange are made of chemicals- in the case of the orange it's mainly H2O.

I know that chemistry makes progress, as do most things. However we already know exactly what atoms are present and in exactly what places for most of the chemicls like glutamate or progesterone that have been discussed here.
There's nothing more to discover about their identity- though we may find new properties or uses for the.
The point remains (and so far you have steadfastly refused to address it) that these chemicals are the same whether they are "natural" or "synthetic".
To claim that we are sudenly goint to experience some epiphany and find that they differ is plainly unscientific since you are unable to offer anty evidence or even a reasonable theory to justify the claim.


"Several times now you have threatend my right to post on this forum by saying my posts are unscientific and unwelcome here. "

That's simply not true; I'm not in a position to threaten anyone's right to post here- not that I would wish to.

"Uncomfortable maybe, unscientific to you maybe, to my wife her IBS has now stopped! Go figure that out."
What exactly does "unscientific to you " mean?
Either it's based on science- ie the evidence, or it's not. If something's scientifically true then it's scientific for all observers- not just me.


Re " Go figure that out" and "Anyway. (pats himself on the back) We have solved my wife’s long standing problem in a scientific elimination process and can say in all honesty that Psychosomatic is not applicable to my wife’s IBS."
That's only true if you did the testing double blind.
Did you? If not then the evidence certainly doesn't rule out a psychosomatic effect and that would be my guess as to the cause.

Whatever the cause and cure I'm glad to know she's feeling better.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Unscientific to you means:

We did not know what was causing my wife's problem. We knew it was hot roast dinners and at first believed it was just that the food was hot. Then we got to learn about Bisto Gravy Granules from a friend and began to put it all together and finally eliminated it from our diet. We have since learned of several other friends and family who have had the same reaction to this product but did not realise it was the Bisto until they began to reflect on what caused the problem to flare up.
Symptoms after eating Bisto are uncomfortable obvious bloat for both my wife and I and neighbour next door. And friend who told us about Bisto. Interesting with neighbour next door she and her husband only get this problem when eating out and not all the time, as she does not use the product. She also said there is a likelihood that this product is used in the food also rather than just gravy to pour on the meal.
My own problem (sore ass) has completely resolved also. Coincidence? I think not.

Double blind controlled study? Nope you got me there, however as were blinded to the fact that it was the gravy to begin with does this count? And when we ate meals that did not contain this product and had no effect on either of us before we knew what was causing it does this count?

Who we going to get to do a controlled study on Bisto Gravy Granules and who is going to fund it?

None of the above is scientific to you, but it’s the best I can do with my limited resources and common sense.

Vitamin C from an orange or indeed from blackcurrant contains a lot more than just the isolated compound + whatever is added to form the chemicals into a solid shiny tablet and extend it’s shelf life.

[rosy]

Umm.... I think you guys are talking at cross purposes. I suspect one or both of you of deriving amusement from this fact, since I think you're both bright enough to realise what the other is saying (or maybe you're too cross to notice). Either way, for the benefit of readers who don't already know this:

Vitamin C is a specific molecule with specific atoms in specific positions relative to each other. It is the same, absolutely and irrefutably the same, regardless of what it's mixed with. That's the point about molecules.

In an orange or a blackcurrant there is a pleasing quantity of vitamin C, which is essential for metabolism and a dietary requirement in humans, and there's a load of other stuff, water, sugars, proteins, fatty acids, DNA, RNA, and so forth. There is also an assortment on other small molecules of various sorts. Some of these may be good for you. Some may even help you take up vitamin C (or, equally, supress the amount of vitamin C you take up), I have no idea.

In a vitamin C tablet there's vitmin C, and chalk. Often some sweetners, and usually some frankly unpleasant orange flavouring. Equally, you can buy (or could when I was a child) a powder containing nothing but ascorbic acid (AKA vitamin C).

Incidetally, if you want to have a look at the molecular structure of vitamin C, here's the wikipedia article with a picture of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C

Oh yes, and... Andrew's observations are just that. Mildly interesting, certainly if I were suffering from the symptoms described (and ate Bisto, which I don't, I think it's vile stuff) I'd be inclined to try cutting it out. There could easily be something in bisto that disagrees with some people. If it were me I'd be inclined to acquire as many of the seperate ingredients as I could and experiment with them one by one (ideally getting someone else to put one or none in my dinner at random when I wasn't looking, so that it was blinded if not double blinded). It still wouldn't be much cop as a study, but I'd be doing it for my own satisfaction and to work out what the problem ingredient was. If I found one I might write to Bisto and tell them.

Infact, if you really think Bisto is making you and your friends ill you should probably write to them anyway, although I doubt you'd get much response.

[Bored chemist]

The interesting point remains that there's nothing in Bisto that isn't in plenty of other foods. If removing bisto from the diet solves the problem, but does so without actually removing the things in it (because they will be elsewhere in the diet), that's puzzling.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Thanks Rosy, a woman’s touch goes a long way to crystallise words in a coherent manner that is often quite humbling to witness.

BC I agree with your last post and would love to try to isolate the part that does it, however, I am hoping that eventually we will see others reporting about products they suspect do the same and we can then look for duplication on ingredients. This might be more acceptable to my wife than slipping something in her diet that might have her dashing to the toilet again. I might do that to BC but not to my dear wifey she’s suffered a lot over the years

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Experiment with 4 dogs who normally have firm stools and eat raw green tripe mixed with breeders pack dried food and occasional extras like blackpudding etc which does not make any difference to their stools.

The other day I suggested to my wife that she mix up some Bisto Gravy Granules to make their meal more interesting. The dogs loved it. Later on there was a general queue at the back door waiting to go outside, which did not concern us much but they did look troubled and rather panicky come to think of it.

Well the following morning our back yard looked like a bomb site with all of the dogs crapping all over the place and when I went out to pick it up, there were no firm stools to be found anywhere just foul smelling slop plastered everywhere.

Now this could be a coincidence. It could also have been mass hysteria among the canine breed. But it could also be Bisto Gravy Granules that upset their tummy’s.

Now the day after they were all on Bisto Free food and not a single sloppy squitter amongst them Bless them.

So looks like the 3 jars of  Bisto GG are for the bin unless someone would like me to send them?