[blakestyger]

Song birds are recognisable by their distinctive songs that remain almost the same for countless generations, although there are recognised local dialects.

The question is: As young birds in second broods are growing up when the adult males have stopped singing (end of June onwards) how can they learn the species song as their fathers are silent?

I have heard snatches of blackbird sub-song from time to time but only rarely - also robins hold territories throughout the winter and continue to sing so that is not such a mystery. It's the warblers who migrate that puzzle me.

[Don_1]

Good question.

I wonder if there might be something in the birds ability to sing which dictates the song, or if there might be some mechanism by which it is passed on by instinct, or maybe the young do not sing (or at least not the right song) until they have heard their older mentors doing so.

Any bright ideas anyone?

[atrox]

Not really.
I allways wondered how efficient it would be, to raise orphaned young birds as I did during my work in a wild animal shelter.. Would these birds be able to reproduce? Because as far as I know female birds are pretty rigorous concerning the right songs... not singing the right song can be a reproductive barrier as shown in the race circle of the great tit in Eurasia.
But as you said, most male birds won´t sing anyways while raising their offspring... some male birds wouldn´t even be near the nest when the chicks hatch.
I am really anxious if someone has an answer to this question!

[Make it Lady]

Try this site: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/songbirds.html

It seems that they do learn from their parents and they have a similar learning process to human babies; babbling, copying intonation until finally the tune becomes perfect.

[Don_1]

Try this site: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/songbirds.html

It seems that they do learn from their parents and they have a similar learning process to human babies; babbling, copying intonation until finally the tune becomes perfect.

One question one this theory, why does the cuckoo not sing the song of the unfortunate foster father?

[blakestyger]

Young cuckoos probably don't have the vocal apparatus to produce the song of a typical foster parent (dunnock, reed warbler, robin) and they would probably hear the adult call when they get back to Africa. It isn't strictly speaking a song per se.

What is amazing about them is that they migrate after their parents - how do they know where to go? []

[Don_1]

No, the cuckoo does not have a 'song' as you say, just a, well, cook koo, but the Robin and other foster parents do. So would you agree that there might be something in the birds vocal ability which prevents it from copying the wrong song?

[atrox]

It seems that they do learn from their parents and they have a similar learning process to human babies; babbling, copying intonation until finally the tune becomes perfect.

Yes, that was the Theorie for a long time...but as blakestyger said, they don´t even sing the "courtship song" during raising their offspring...so how do they learn it then? Maybe some chicks learn theirs songs this way, but it definatly wouldn´t work for a lot of birds

[Make it Lady]

I heard with Robins that the baby boys learns the basics from Dad and then learn to embellish it themselves. The more embellishments they can do, the sexier the ladies find them.

As for the other stuff then I'm clueless. I understood it was learnt. When do the chicks actually start using the more complex songs. Perhaps they learn it on the job, during the mating season. I see the problem now!