Science vs. Religion

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Offline Tronix

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Science vs. Religion
« on: 08/03/2005 15:51:54 »
Ever since Copernicus put the earth in orbit of the sun, religion and science have seemed to be at odds. One defines the world through faith in the general nature of things, a blind jump into the unknown with eyes closed, courage full, and heart open and sure. The other proceeds through the world with open eyes and a questioning mind, seeing through its own eyes what happens in the world and using what he or she knows already for sure and imagination to make sense out of it all, a light in the darkness of the unknown making all things clear one solved mystery at a time, and assuming nothing.

These two forces of society and humanity seem to be at odds. Current Science is loathe to accept even the possibilty of the possiblity of spirits, magic, mythic creatures, gods, and all things it cannot see or prove easily, where as religion is willing to throw all logic and observation out the window, chalking the movement of all things up to the fickle whims of an invisble entity of mysterious power, questoning nothing.

but this are only my assumptions really. i want to know how the two really see eachother. my girfriend is a faithful wiccan, and has told me of her encounters with the supernatural and strange and magical. And i believe her, and at least in the possiblity of things beyond our kening, beyond our laws of physics. And at the same time, she embraces my path of knowledge, eating up my unentertaining lectures on the nature of living things and tolerating, no, encouraging my insatiable hunger for understanding and knowledge. And i wonder, in our lives will we be punished for our partnership. Will i be called crackpot for my search for the supernatural side of life, and will she be shunned becuase of her fratranization will a logically minded faithless scientist, whom must have proof and reason for everything.

Anyone else wonder what i wonder? Whom here has religion in there lives wheter Christian, Buddhist, or Wiccan, or whatever, from you, parents co-workers, or girlfriends. Anyone have "faith" in a theory, conviction in a method, courage in a question (or an answer?)

But the real question is, What do you believe in and what do you know without proof, and how does this co-exsist with what you know, and what you question and wonder at?

Important quotes from important people

"Hey my chocolate bar melted!" Percy L. Spencer
« Last Edit: 09/03/2005 18:51:41 by Tronix »
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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #1 on: 08/03/2005 18:38:55 »
quote:
the real question is, What do you believe in, what do you know without proof, and how do is co-exsist with what you know, and what you question?


The following is “Ultima on Religion:” WARNING RANT!!![:D]

I might save this for the next time someone asks “so erm, what faith are you?????”

Question everything, take nothing for granted. Only personal belief is important, what anyone else thinks is great but you don't have to conform (i.e. I’m against large organized monolithic religeons, which rely heavily on blind faith). You can be spiritual without taking everything literally, humans are an emotional animal; as such we have the power of imagination... I can easily imagine a world full of fanciful creatures that can be related to how I perceive the real world (In fact I often think this way for working out complex algorithms in computer science); but that doesn't make them exist. Take how the East lean towards mysticism, and they often believe some one who has accomplished much in life becomes a god in death, that’s more of a social function of remembrance and celebration for that person than the literal idea that they are a “God”. Spirituality and Religion are definitely separate things. I look at nature around me and can’t help but feel in awe of its beauty. That doesn’t mean that because it’s so beautiful I must credit that to some all powerful super being, that for some inane reason also takes a personal interest in everything everyone does. I also have more confidence in myself and other people to inherently know the right thing to do morally, and not rely on being spoon fed some gibberish that’s been rehashed and regurgitated for several thousand years. The biggest thing I wonder about is how people don’t realize they yearn for the freedom of personal belief, take Christianity there are so many flavors of it the mind boggles, everyone jarring to be heard over the other to be more correct in the interpretation of the bible. Why can’t everyone believe what they want and accept everyone else is going to do the same? I think you will find the world would be a happier place. Science to has people taking various stances at different times, the difference is that everyone is heard and their views considered and the most feasible and provable model is chosen, if something doesn’t fit its amended or totally redone. Not dragged on for centuries with no growth or change to fit society.

The anger in my writing comes from narrow minded people constantly telling me I’m evil for not jumping to the nearest religion at hand. I was once told by a Greek Orthodox lady that I was going to HELL because my parents did not have me christened (They were refused by the church because they didn’t attend), I was about seven years old at the time. Another great example recently was when a gang of young Jehovah’s Witnesses (Two girls my age with young children) knocked on my door and talked to me for about 45minutes about what they believed and what I thought. They quoted scripture and told me what they thought it meant. I didn’t have the heart to tell them I pretty much believe the opposite to what they wanted to hear; considering I give blood and want my organs harvested on my death. They went into detail of how we are now in “THE END OF DAYS” and that I had better sign up sharpish otherwise Jehovah will personally come down and smite me for not conforming, banishing me to hell and giving everyone else heaven on Earth. Heaven on Earth I gather from the pamphlet center fold that they gave me, is set in the Alps where only white blond hared people are allowed… hmmm sounds familiar some how. I just nodded lots and said “yeah that sounds great” hoping they wouldn’t catch on, luckily they didn’t. I now kind of wonder what they would have been like if I came to their door trying to persuade them their whole life is a sham and they MUST believe what I believe. I don’t think they would have said “yeah that sounds great”. If anyone here is a devout JW don’t hesitate to debate this with me, I’m always open to hearing about someone’s religion and belief system, just don’t expect me to take it to heart. Plus why is it that I know a fair bit about various religions but lots of people with “faith” don’t bother to delve into science or even other faiths, are they that scared that their faith will be shattered that easily???

In conclusion I have learned from experience that most religion is about: guilt, fear (mostly about death), and wanting to “fit in” where there is no obvious justification for existing. My theory is: WHO CARES!!! You die because living forever means that people couldn’t be born, who would deny a baby a life? Who wants to live forever? Why fit in, be as outlandish as you like so long as you don’t harm anyone. AND WHY OH WHY make people take on the guilt of something that possibly happened over 2000 years ago, or the guilt of not conforming and making them doubt themselves with scare tactics such as hell or a “soulless” wandering in death.

http://www.pantheism.net/

LOL that went on for ages [:D]


wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 08/03/2005 18:41:23 by Ultima »
wOw the world spins?

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Offline IAmAI

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #2 on: 08/03/2005 20:24:02 »
I used to be a Christian. I think the reason why was something Ultima mentions: "Only personal belief is important, what anyone else thinks is great but you don't have to conform...". I was brought up in a Christian family and I was simply too young to make my own observations and make my own decisions about reality. Basically, I trusted my Christian family and friends. But (I realise this more on reflection) something didn't seem right: Although I enjoyed going to church, meeting up with my Christian friends, I rarely felt motivated to read the Bible and pray, like I was supposed to as a Christian. I rarely 'felt' God like lots of Christians claim to have done, and the times when I felt like I did, it was probably my own emotions rather than any supernaturally induced feeling.

About 4 years ago, when I started Sixth form, I started using the Internet more. Actually, I used the Internet a fair bit prior, but it doesn’t really matter. I started playing the video game, Deus Ex. It was so good I thought I would check out a forum. I started posting on Forum Planet’s forum, Planet Deus Ex and soon became part of the community there. Amongst the discussions about the game, there were ones like this one; people discussion religion. I found such discussions very interesting, and I contributed as a Christian… at first. I gained a taste for these kinds of discussions and often participated when I could. I believe the discussions inspired me to become a broader, more opened minded, more objective thinker. I started applying thought to my own beliefs and not just those of other people, not assuming them futile without good reason (as some believers don’t). I eventually came to the conclusion that the possibility of God (or a god of any kind) not existing (and everything that goes with it), is feasible. Although, still believed the opposite (that God could exist – and I still do so, currently), nothing was certain and so I felt could no longer be a Christian.

Now I take things just as Ultima suggests: Assume nothing and question everything – I believe there’s nothing to lose doing that, as long as you’re prepared think about things, and I enjoy doing so. I hope one day that perhaps I will be able to come to some kind of conclusion of my own, regarding what origins of the universe and whether there is more to our tangible existence, based on logic and reason, using evidence as the substance for the reasoning, rather than assuming or wishing for anything. If I don’t, if it is impossible to do that, I shall still remain the open minded, objective thinker that I now am.

Thanks to Ultima for pointing out the thread. Hope he finds this interesting.
 

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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #3 on: 08/03/2005 20:41:30 »
Welcome to the forum IAmAI. Or should I say Dan from the same Uni as me [;)]

It's good to hear that not everyone with a religious background takes everything purely on faith.


wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 08/03/2005 20:42:53 by Ultima »
wOw the world spins?

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #4 on: 09/03/2005 11:04:25 »
In religion, the basic tenents are taken as articles of faith. There is no proof, even unscientific. In other words, you can never see God.

In science, there are no basic tenents. All things must be proven, which means that they must be demonstrable to others. You must be able to see God.

Yet is is not hard to argue that more people believe in religion than in science. Why would this be? This is a subject that has been covered in the literature, but I will add my simple observation, although it is without scientific proof: People are afraid of their own mortality. Religions all provide immortality, through the creation of an afterlife, in another universe that we cannot observe from here. The promise of immortality is the basis of all religion, and the reason humanity believes in it.
"F = ma, E = mc^2, and you can't push a string."

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Offline xardra

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #5 on: 09/03/2005 19:03:39 »
Alrighty, you guys may want to know that i am tronix's girlfriend and i am a wiccan and i have a lot of faith in my religion. but i don't take it all verbatum,  creation myths dopn;t make sense to me, science has always fascinated me since i was a baby, but religoin was forced down my throat (i was brought up as a catholic) now you can't take everthing as is from "holy" books, there are reasonable ecxplinations of what really happend, and they make more sense that the "vengeful god/ loving god" thing.

i don';t care what tronix says, i loved science before him, i want to know how and why.

but you all seem to be seeing things from a christian perspective, my religion is  about peace, not fear or anger... you don't need a religion, but as humans we want to belive in something, a relioin or a scientific fact that could be disproven....

oh by the way hi!

Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....
Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #6 on: 09/03/2005 19:31:55 »
Welcome Xardra! Well now we have a couple, Tronix and Xardra. I hope those aren't your real names. It would make Moonbeam and Chynna seem ordinary. But seriously, folks, we hope you enjoy this discussion forum. We normally discuss only scientific topics, but I think fringy things are tolerated well, as long as they are interesting.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2005 19:33:05 by gsmollin »
"F = ma, E = mc^2, and you can't push a string."

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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #7 on: 09/03/2005 23:28:10 »
xardra, do you believe in reincarnation, karma (not sure what the Wicca specific terminology is), and that your soul resides in Summerland in death, to reflect on past lives before starting a new?

I think perhaps I should join a religious forum, it's a darn shame that most are specific to one religion, and don’t have a "general religion" thread on them [:D]

On a science side, if it exists what might a soul be made of I wonder... some strange exotic matter that exists in weird dimensions hidden from view?


wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 09/03/2005 23:31:22 by Ultima »
wOw the world spins?

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Offline Tronix

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #8 on: 10/03/2005 16:11:08 »
well, thats what i think. assuming string theory is right, on of these dimensions coudl be a spiritual one, where all manner of spiritual forces exsist, perhaps with their own set of physics. But of cousre you would have to define whaty "spirit" really is. perhaps it is some body of energy or matter that transcends to the "physical" dimension and resides within all life, giving it a sort of "framework" for emotion and, thoughts, and maybe even luck. Perhaps its like most religions surmise, a form of "us" on a different plane, unaffected by physical wear and tear or death. An actual form of eternity, or at least an indefinitely long lived entity. Many Many people have claimed spirtual and other worldly experiences, all with proof. And this has been going on, with otherwise sane people claiming it, for thousands of years. There may be something to it.

Yes, im interested in studying the paranormal. so sue me.  It just seems to me that too mnay people have talked about too many diferent but similar event in too many cases for too long in our history to not have at least someone looking into it. if nothign else, we may find something new about our world that nobody thought of by the end of it. i say its worth a gander.

unfortunatley, it doesnot pay well, and enviromental research , another field im interested in, does pay well. so ill do it on the side till i can retire or one of our presidents is dumb enough or interested enough to give paranormal research i nice chunky grant or two.

But thats my wierd belief butting heads with science. As for my stance on religion, i am not as devout as Xardra (no thats not her name, by the way). I find science to suit me better, but i fully support her wonderful religion, especially since i am studying the enviroment, and i absolutley root for everything it supports, love, free-thinking, respect for nature and many other things. As for its coexsistance with my science, hasn't bothered me none. Im still treking along, looking at bugs and eating grass.

"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
« Last Edit: 18/03/2005 03:17:12 by Tronix »
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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #9 on: 10/03/2005 21:08:34 »
I'd say that science is only one aspect of human thought and reason. Another part which is not necessarily based on ancient Greek logic and natural science is 'relational knowing'. As a young man I did have an aweful lot of strange day dreams of Hell and Heaven. I knew it was nonsense. But then I nearly died or so I thought. It is critisised this turning to God only when we need Him. But I began to discipline myself from wicked conduct. I asked Him not to let me die. I repented, fell to my knees and had a relational knowing of Jesus before me, and my conscience became clear. So I had a knowing after a faith, with the element of request or communication.

I then in my lack of knowledge fell happily back into my Catholic faith which I had left from lack of interest... I liked conforming, but found some things didn't give me peace or esteem like I needed them to. So conforming was partly an error.

Guilt was gone from me in a clear conscience and such is offered to all. Ultimately people can't turn to God just from fear of death but need to ask for life and forgiveness, deliverance from evil... as in the Our Father which I prayed then with "Don't let me die". I was also alerting myself to reality with wide open eyes, anti day dreaming.

Instead of using science regarding the paranormal, seek to experience Jesus. Look for a prophet or something like that in an evangelist.

Wicca seems to involve magic and the other spirts as grey magic suggests, dark spirits. They can't enlighten you. They are dead and can't give you life.

Where did the universe come from, matter and dimensions...? Inner reasoning too? If one says Hydrogen than where was that from, and before that and before that and so on. Why did they ancient Greeks who invented logic turn to Paul's Gospel? And Paul died for his mission. The Greeks and Romans looked into the apostles writings and invented a logical approach to understanding God and some people like it. Theology.

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #10 on: 11/03/2005 00:45:21 »
Oh goody more voters !![:D]..don't forget to cast your vote , and smile too !![:D]http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=903[:)]

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
« Last Edit: 11/03/2005 02:36:53 by neilep »
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline xardra

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #11 on: 11/03/2005 15:57:14 »
i didn't mean to make this a religious discussion. my original intent was to clear up the fact that i have a strong passion for both science and religion. i was trying to say that i had a rather expansive (although not too detailed) knowledge of science.
i'm not saying this to make my dear tronix angry, but i knew a lot before he came along, just because i listen and ask questions dosen't mean that i don't know about the other stuff, i have read more books on quantem physis than he has...so there.....

i think he waqnted to show that we are a struggling couple whose beliefs are very different and we are co exisitng and in love with eachother...



Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....
Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #12 on: 11/03/2005 18:37:32 »
quote:
Originally posted by xardra

i didn't mean to make this a religious discussion. my original intent was to clear up the fact that i have a strong passion for both science and religion.

i think he waqnted to show that we are a struggling couple whose beliefs are very different and we are co exisitng and in love with eachother...



AHHHHH...that's so sweet......I'm happy you two are in love dspite adversity that is your own personal opinions........

i think you have clearly demonstrated how any hint at religion in a thread is never really going to be constrained within a few words.....as each post continues , they provide fuel for all of our own individual points of view and it's such a humungous topic that it's easy to see how quickly the tone of a thread can change where Religion is involved. One thing it's always sure to guarantee are almost defensive points of view en masse !!....and that's what I have to say about that.[:)]

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #13 on: 12/03/2005 00:32:46 »
That's why you never discuss religion, or politics at a party... or a discussion forum.
"F = ma, E = mc^2, and you can't push a string."

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #14 on: 14/03/2005 15:54:03 »
Sorry about my long post. Just i think relational knowing is as valid as scientific.

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #15 on: 14/03/2005 18:22:04 »
quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape

Sorry about my long post. Just i think relational knowing is as valid as scientific.

Titanscape


No need to apologise Bren, you have nothing to apologise for, this is a nice healthy thread [;)]....write as long posts as you wish...

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline Moonjade1907

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #16 on: 27/03/2005 12:03:29 »
I just got back from a party where we discussed religion vs. science..and both things ask you to do one thing "Believe in the unknown" Religion asks you to believe in the unknown of the past and science asks you to believe in the work that is being done to prove or disprove theories.. I think in my life..I have asked a lot of questions..and even experienced things i cant explain...So I have found what i like to call my "Center" i found a way to believe in science and in religion.. Some people think i am crazy to say that both things have valid points that can be mixed...most say it can't be done..but i disagree...I believe in both...i do not have a "Religion" I was raised as a Lutheran ...but i find the bible very hard to agree with..But like i said..i have seen things that makes me believe in an afterlife...in a higher being...as for science..it explains a lot of the unexplained..I won't go on repeating things that have already been said..I just wanted to say that I believe never stop asking questions..but don't lose your faith! Science and Religion can intermix...if you open up your mind to it...
 

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Offline xardra

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #17 on: 28/03/2005 20:46:39 »
thank you that is what we wnated to say!! huggles to you!!!

Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....
Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....

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Offline Tronix

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #18 on: 28/03/2005 21:00:48 »
Exactly our (me and xardra's) point Moonjade (and wlecome by the way). Science and religion are both modes of understanding. One understands by reason, another by faith. A scientist may have faith that his theory is true, which spurs him to find the answer, and a buddihist or wiccan or christian or what have you needs to have some small bits of proof to back up his faith. A possible mix, but not an easy one. But, i dont see why someone cant believe that god sent life on the path to evolution, or that thier is a possibility of ghosts and such.

By the by I and Xardra would liek to thank you for your openmindedness. The world needs more people like you. thnks

--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

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Offline Ylide

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #19 on: 29/03/2005 12:41:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by Tronix

Science and religion are both modes of understanding. One understands by reason, another by faith. A scientist may have faith that his theory is true, which spurs him to find the answer, and a buddihist or wiccan or christian or what have you needs to have some small bits of proof to back up his faith. A possible mix, but not an easy one. But, i dont see why someone cant believe that god sent life on the path to evolution, or that thier is a possibility of ghosts and such.



Scientists don't use faith to develop hypotheses.  Say that I believe a mutation on the gene for a certain enzyme is responsible for the development of type 2 diabetes.  As a scientist, I would not have come to this conclusion randomly, by praying, or by seeing someone's face embedded in a potato chip.  I would have come to this conclusion by analysis of known facts about genetics, physiology, and biochemistry.  Now, I would like to test this hypothesis.  I perform a variety of experiments and with the proper controls, I can demonstrate whether my hypothesis is supported or unsupported.  If the data supports the hypothesis and (and here's the tricky part) is reproducible under similar conditions in another lab then I have a nice little theory on my hands.  

The difference lies in that religious hypotheses (there is a divine creator who made everything, he sees all, he knows all, yadda yadda) cannot be tested or proven in any way as of this point in time.  They are believed in because they are passed down culturally across generations and people are indoctrinated into them at a young age.  It's hard to shake a belief in something that's been told to you your entire life that can't be directly disproven by anyone.  

And this is exactly why hardcore scientists and hardcore religious people simply do not get along when it comes to discussing the nature of life, existance, the soul, the universe, or anything that contradicts faith vs. observation.  We think they are stupid and they think we are heathens.  

With that aside, I'm not willing to rule out the existance of some source of energy that drove our universe into motion or even a higher intelligence that designed the physical laws.  But that's as far as I go.  With so many religions out there clamoring that they are the one true faith and the behavior that so many of them exhibit in trying to demonstrate their righteousness, I'm loathe to believe that any of them are even close to the truth.  The Zen Buddhists have a good idea because they admit they don't know crap and are willing to sit and meditate until they figure something out.  That's not the course I'd choose, but at least they're not killing anyone.

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Offline Tronix

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #20 on: 31/03/2005 06:21:14 »
a good point Yilde. But still, a scientitst may, whether intentionally or not have faith in a theroy. this seems to happen alot in technological and medical advancements. Faith that there is a way to cure polio, for example. i dont know if Jonas Salk prayed for a cure or the intellegence to figure one out, or if he gave more concessions to get on god's good side, or even if he did freaking voodoo rituals to help. But im sure he believed, or even "knew" he could find a cure. There was no solid proof he could find a cure for polio, excpet maybe the logical reasoning that other people figured out cures for other diseases that told him "hey, if they could do it, why cant i?". Still though, technically, if one is defining faith as belief in something that cannot be proven or disproven (at least until its a moot point), then yeah, Jonas likley had faith in his hypothesis. But if it is defined as "knowing/assuming/beileving very strongly that something is true/false without proof", then not many, but some scientists have fatih. No, faith didnt create his theory for a cure, his logic that a disease can be cured becuase other could did, but at least belief, if not faith was involved. Now, HOW he did it, and the detials of the hypothesis (that it could be cured with a "killed" version of the disease, for example) were scientific, based on logic and proof and reasoning and lots and lots of thinking. A scientist can and does generally believe in something about his theroy until its proven or disproven.

Now, generally, scientists may have faith, maybe even in one or two of their theories, but generally they keep it loose and at a minimum. A scientist, whom has faith in gravity pointing away from the center of the earth would be called insane, much less a crackpot, unless he had damn good logic, and then even better proof. A scientist whom has faith in a theory that is disproven will likely be at least upset if not devestated, depending on how much time , energy and money he sunk into it. Thus, a scientist would be wise to also at least believe he could be dead freaking wrong.

    Now, with most religion, its not so easy to disprove them, becuase of the loftiness of the "theories" and that while the basic concepts of the faith rarely if ever change the logic behind them can be picked from anywhere, thus its hard to disprove, and even if it was, they wouldnt care, as proof is not the point of religion, its faith (at least thats my observation).

But as far as i know, Copernicus wasnt persecuting altar boys that thought the earth was at the center of the universe, and Albert didnt kill anyone because of his "faith" in a Gravity/Electomagnetism Unified Theroy. That statement alone can spark a raging fire amoungst people based on what they believe about Unified Theory. Belief, even faith, in his Unified Theory, drove him to search until he died.  

Faith is not (i would hope) used in the proving of a theory, and it should not entirely be used in the creation of a hypothesis, if it has to be used at all (but that would mean it would be a proven theory). But still, for some of the biggest scientific endeavours, one must "believe", without any proof and logic that can be wrong, that this hypothesis or that hypothesis is worth doing. Same for some great technological advancements. Edison tried at least 2000 times to make a light bulb, and he may not have gotten to it if he hadnt have a little faith that there was a way to do it. No praying on the rosary. No invoking the godess. No poking voodoo dolls with heated needles between their legs, just a little confidence in himself and some faith in an effective electrical light device that couldnt be proven until he made it, at which point its moot. That is the "faith" of the scientist and the inventor, while its not not nessesary, it can happen without ruining the whole thing or causing "fundamentalism", and it does happen. And its not so bad to believe in your theory, i think, so long as you believe or realize it could be wrong.



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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

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The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #21 on: 31/03/2005 08:34:55 »
Can I just mention Tronix, that when you say a scientist can have faith, you're not meanining that the faith a scientist has means that he/she believes in a god yes ?...you mean that the scientist just believes that the answer to a problem or research will eventually be attained by study and experimentation eh ?...therefore the  Faith a scientist has is just the belief that a conclusion must exist after empirical study.........nothing to do with religion at all eh ?

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Offline Santi2c

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #22 on: 31/03/2005 09:15:27 »
I totally agree that scientists must have faith to do ANYTHING.  But it is a much more progressive faith than one in God, the end all answer.  Faith in the past, present, and future..  faith that the sun will rise tomorrow because it rose yesterday and the day before that (except in sweden).  I think we're more used to thinking of the word fate as a stubborn, stale thing, I mean that it's associated more with religion and just "trusting", taking knowledge for granted and not thinking too much about it after someone comes up with a reasonable answer.  Scientists don't trust in the same sense, no superstitions, or a god or tribal tale for every phenomenon etc, but there's still a whole lotta trusting going on.  But hey, pythagoras thought the whole world was made out of triangles.. that's pretty out there to me.  I guess you could say that it's a less conservative faith than that of religion.
 

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Offline xardra

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #23 on: 31/03/2005 18:29:54 »
some scientists may say that god will help prove that they are right (weather or not you would call that person a scientist or a nut job is up to you)others will just  have confidence that they have dona all they can to prove that they are right. both rely on the same thing--a blind belief that something will be right or will work. you can test a theory 20000 times and "know" that it is correct. then someone coomes along and does a few experiments then BAM! you're proven wrong. but you had the confidence/faith that you got it that far...

Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....
Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....

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Offline Tronix

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #24 on: 31/03/2005 18:34:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

Can I just mention Tronix, that when you say a scientist can have faith, you're not meanining that the faith a scientist has means that he/she believes in a god yes ?...you mean that the scientist just believes that the answer to a problem or research will eventually be attained by study and experimentation eh ?...therefore the  Faith a scientist has is just the belief that a conclusion must exist after empirical study.........nothing to do with religion at all eh ?

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!


doink, right on the money. Again, not saying that there is no such thing as a Christian or Buddihist or even Hermetic scientist, but yeah, the kind of faith you mentioned is the kind that many that scientists have, and that relates us in some ways to religion. We both have faith, just not the same way.

--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

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Offline Sandwalker

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #25 on: 04/04/2005 18:14:39 »
A rational faith perhaps!
If such a thing exists.[}:)]


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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #26 on: 05/04/2005 03:11:15 »
"rational faith"... an oxymoron. Either you people have never studied religion, or you just never paid attention. Articles of faith are taken without proof, not even enough proof for a scientist to construct a coherent hypothesis. In a religious sense, the word "faith" has no relationship to the use of the same word when we really mean "reasonable hope". A scientist has "reasonable hope" that after enough theory and experiment he can prove a hypothesis and raise it to a working theory. The word "faith" may be used in place of "hope", but its got nothing in common with religion.

In a religious context, articles of faith have been already proved by the word of God, and are not open to anymore meddling. What you are discussing here is heresy, and the church has not treated heretics kindly in the past.

Some scientists are deeply religious. Whatever religious beliefs they hold on faith are not the same things they seek to prove by scientific method.
"F = ma, E = mc^2, and you can't push a string."

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #27 on: 05/04/2005 04:26:35 »
as a "scientist of faith" (doesn't that sound screwed up.... but i gues sits the propper term) I have to say qsmollin is right on the money there.

Are YOUR mice nude? [;)]
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Offline Tronix

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #28 on: 07/04/2005 15:46:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by gsmollin

"rational faith"... an oxymoron. Either you people have never studied religion, or you just never paid attention. Articles of faith are taken without proof, not even enough proof for a scientist to construct a coherent hypothesis. In a religious sense, the word "faith" has no relationship to the use of the same word when we really mean "reasonable hope". A scientist has "reasonable hope" that after enough theory and experiment he can prove a hypothesis and raise it to a working theory. The word "faith" may be used in place of "hope", but its got nothing in common with religion.

In a religious context, articles of faith have been already proved by the word of God, and are not open to anymore meddling. What you are discussing here is heresy, and the church has not treated heretics kindly in the past.

Some scientists are deeply religious. Whatever religious beliefs they hold on faith are not the same things they seek to prove by scientific method.



That does bring up a good point, and that intesity of faith is something that science doesnot naturally achieve. Still, you can see some overlap when faith isnt as focused or strong. Some relgions are loosley structured and not only allow but encourage their followers to "do it their way". Some religions dont have much in the way of mythology or big books where they get there doctrines from. Less structured religions like that cultivate all kinds of degrees of faith and kinds of faith, even some kind of "reasonable faith" based on "unscientific" things ("hey, if everything good in my life has had the number 3 in it somehow, and i was born on the 3rd day of the 3rd month and the 3rd hour, that must be my lucky number, and (insert deity)'s number is 3, so ill pray/invoke/call upon/do magic with him/her"). Even in highly dogamtic relgions, not all patrons nessarily "know" that everythign in their main book is pure as gold, although they generally either keep quiet about or start a revolution. Take good old catholics and protestants. The Catholics "know" the pope cant be wrong, but eventually some of them started to not like what the pope was doing. At first, they may have had only faith in him becuase he was supposed to be chosen by god, where as they "knew" that god went by "these" standards. When the two didnt mesh, they may have had a "revelation", and know their faith was turned against the pope, or at least disapeered. This is how demoninations are formed. Hell, at first the thing that seperated the jews and christians was Jesus.

In conclusion. There are all kinds of faiths to be found in relgion, including the faith that requires no proof at all. Still, Science and religion share common bonds in places. very very very streched bonds, bt they are still there.

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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
« Last Edit: 07/04/2005 15:53:56 by Tronix »
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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

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Offline ADD HAHAHA

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #29 on: 08/04/2005 05:44:11 »
has any1 noticed that most religion r agenst eachother but most ariginated from the same place ( sand scriped ) its all just different interperitations of it.

its dissction has gone on n on about cathlic n ect...
but wat about budisum, finding 1s inner self, thay beleve that in the body there is hmmm.... a coflict wit the good n the bad n they meditae to find the balance of the 2.

Then theres druidism vary scientific and respecting of nature. they ask y or how

humens r bouned 2 come up wit some kind of reilig... its in there nature. like 2 blame a drought on a rain god or a good harvest on the god of food.

P.S. hi all i'm new at this but mainly HI (:D)
 


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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #30 on: 08/04/2005 17:51:46 »
ur pst s nrly impsbl 2 rd
"F = ma, E = mc^2, and you can't push a string."

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Offline ADD HAHAHA

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #31 on: 08/04/2005 18:13:32 »
PST???

lol 2 ur spellin

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #32 on: 08/04/2005 18:44:56 »
Post.

Did you know one guy wrote a little program 2 'Prince-nise' ur ritin'? Hilarious, but after two pages it's been quite enough. Had the same nearly with Train Spotting, which is a different 'slang' (Scottish), but has to be read out loud to be understandable, nearly... [:)]

OT: pick up The Religion of Technology by D. Noble

http://faculty.washington.edu/nelgee/lectures/comments/s_hall-nobl_rev001.htm

and you'll see that the two are much closer intertwined than you believed possible. Like two faces of one coin, in stead of opposite numbers...
« Last Edit: 08/04/2005 18:47:45 by chimera »
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Offline pink_person

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #33 on: 17/04/2005 01:54:12 »
science is great it helps us understand the things God does, but every once in a while it gets out of place and Jesus has to nudge it along to the right place again

Pink
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Offline kjahafa

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #34 on: 08/05/2005 17:30:43 »
This is kinda like asking would you like paper or plastic? Both have the same purpose but are different. My take on this subject is this: Science explains our tangible existence and religion fulfills the intangible/phenomenal/spiritual/unexplainable existence. Science is not a belief and religion is not the only way to communicate with the Creator. If a child asks questions about the sun, moon and earth, will scientists answer all the questions? If religious people were to see the full spectrum of human life, will they be able to answer the underlying question of why? I don't think our brains are nor ever will be capable of understanding existence.  The bottom line is believe what you want, firmly. It has taken me awhile to come to this conclusion on my existence; because I am alive,I must do something. It is in the how have I accomplished what I accomplished that is important.
 

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #35 on: 08/05/2005 19:02:28 »
It is pretty cool reading all these people's different opinions and they are all quite different. I personally think that science and 'religeon' are quite different in some ways. Science is very slowly proving that God is real. A lot of Scientists have a lot of different opinions and there are qutie a lot of Chrisitan Scientists. However Generally Scientists believe in evolution and they are very slowly being prooved wrong. I think that Science is just a way of trying to explain how God made this earth etc. but has now drifted from that.

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #36 on: 08/05/2005 19:57:32 »
I think that faith and the scientific method are incompatable, as the whole point of faith is that you should belive without evidence, and the point of the scientific method is to question everything, believe nothing, and keep testing your theories against how the world works. There might be a god, ten gods, or whatever, but even if this was prooved, a scientist would then ask how he worked.

PS I don't think there are many scientists who think that much of evolution is being slowly prooved wrong who don't have ulterior religious motives.

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #37 on: 09/05/2005 21:24:34 »
hmmm well I think we have disagreements then because I think that you can be a scientist and have faith. I think you can actually prove a lot of 'religeos' things but I do admit for some of them you do need faith.....
p.s I hate using that word 'religeous'

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #38 on: 09/05/2005 21:37:49 »
I didn't say you couldn't just that the two approaches are incompatible, so it requires you to partition the things that you are going to think about scientifically and those that you are going to think about religiously. As thinking about religion scientifically will lead immediately to the lack of hard evidence, and if you think about schience religiously you end up being hung up on dogma - hence the whole Catholic earth is the centre of the solar system issue...

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #39 on: 09/05/2005 22:13:58 »
The big bang theory was not Hubble's, but Lemaitre's (Belgian Catholic Priest), and immediately embraced by the Vatican, since it 'confirmed' a moment of creation.

Just one example of how close the two 'disciplines' can get, simply because they are looking for answers to the same questions, albeit in totally diverse manner.

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Offline Tronix

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #40 on: 10/05/2005 04:29:10 »
so this is where this threads been hiding.

well im glad yall are still responding and think this thread is worthy of replying in.

on the subject of christian scientists, this seems to happen alot. Albert Einstein, the practical founder of an entire branch of science, which is also the science of everything, was relgious, and often said he was trying to know what god knew. Religion and scence can coexsist, clearly.

but what is also clear is that there is a point in which they conflict, and dave makes this point when he mentions that the scientific method pushes questioning even the most proven laws of nature, and faith should survive even the most damning scrutiny.

Their idealogies dont mix, that is certain. but if oen gives leeway to both, they can mix. paranormalists know what im talking about, becuase they lack concrete proof for what they believe, but know without proof that what they are looking for is at least worth looking for, if not true. And on the relgious end, there are very forumulaic magical arts (hermetics, alchemy, numerology) in which practioners do experiment and attempt to understand thier art and the world, but they come from the relgious end, their basic laws based on faith (like hermetics based on the faith that their magical and metaphysical laws are from the revelations of an egpytian god)



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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #41 on: 10/05/2005 14:36:04 »
Funny how both the church and academia are united in their frowning on numerology, parapsychology, and some other hermestrismegistus-like phenomena mentioned.

Seems they do share quite a bit, but it seems not any of the things you mention... [;)]

The living are the dead on holiday.  -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)
« Last Edit: 10/05/2005 14:37:03 by chimera »
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Offline daveshorts

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #42 on: 10/05/2005 14:41:06 »
Yeah they go against both religious dogma and evidence which is quite good going ;)

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #43 on: 10/05/2005 14:55:57 »
To make up for that (don't want to be condescending in any way): anyone here know who the first true-blue alchemist in the real sense was? Not with turning lead into gold, of course...




[A: http://www.tfainc.com/library.asp]

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #44 on: 10/05/2005 16:23:03 »
Erm don't mean to sound stupid.... but what does dogma mean? I think Science is just trying to find out how God did it. Some people though don't believe he did though. This is a really cool topic and I like seeing what people think. There are Christian Scientists ya know and it is good to understand the evolution theories and the Big Bang stuff but they are all not true.

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #45 on: 10/05/2005 16:41:50 »
Dogma is the truth-in-a-booklet type of thing. Basically just a list of what you're supposed to think.

With science that would translate to pop-sci stuff that from the lower end of the quality spectrum, where everything is simplified in a similar manner (see, scientists must accept what's true, not what they wish to believe, even if it's not pleasant -no discipline is without minor allowances).

Churches are pretty high on dogma. The difference with 'scientific rigour' is that the latter is more adaptable to change. Not fast, always, but judging from history this cannot be denied.

It'd be wrong in my view to think that because science isn't perfect, and neither is our understanding of evolution or cosmogeny or math, the alternatives given by the church are compatible. They are the condensation of memories that have become so condensed over time, that there has been a bit of degradation in clarity and function: it has become oversimplified, and is also not amenable to change. That's never good.

So, if I'm honest, evolution theory is 100% better than a story that confuses even kids, with ingredients that belie everything you know from real life. Almost fairy-tale like representations of very old, oral history. There's truth hiding in there, but it's covered by so much muck over time, you'd have to be a very dedicated person indeed to separate wheat from chaff...

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #46 on: 12/05/2005 15:22:57 »
What happened to my post?

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #47 on: 15/05/2005 10:09:44 »
Errm. Still missing, I take it. Maybe related to the 'login problems' people reported? Dunno.

Anyway: nice experiment to show how even scientists can fall for dogma: any scientist willing to conduct it with me by answering the following question:

A black hole has been reported sitting at the center of a galaxy close to 450 million lighyears away, and it has a size calculated to be around 3,5 to 5 lightyears in diameter.

Yet, there is something totally impossibly wrong with it. Something that defies our astronomic common sense.

Now, what question would a respectable scientist - being impervious to dogma - ask first, before investigating the matter any further?

The living are the dead on holiday.  -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)
« Last Edit: 15/05/2005 10:10:21 by chimera »
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Offline Tronix

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #48 on: 19/05/2005 16:09:19 »
These questions in this order.

How was it found?
Where was it found?
What was used to find it?
Who found it?
When was it found?
Why was it looked for?
What is the theory on its irregualar size?



--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #49 on: 19/05/2005 19:14:48 »
Ah, an answer. Last one is actually the correct one. What makes it that big? Incredibly big, even - any black hole that size would have had several HUNDREDS of galaxies for breakfast, and we do not know of any that size, of course. It does not exist.

In previous discussions I've people DID think this was possible, only doing the math finally convinced them. But on faith, they accepted them gladly - nothing wrong with a lightyear in diameter more or less...

that's dogma for you. Read to much pulp science, and you are maybe aware of activity at the frontiers of science, but have no clue as to its exact borders, and accept anomalies several orders of magnitude outside the scope of reality.

The living are the dead on holiday.  -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)
« Last Edit: 19/05/2005 19:15:40 by chimera »
Errare humanum esd.-- Biggus D.