[lyner]

A unified theory, even! That's very ambitious, my friend. Good luck with it.
What happens with your diagram when photons are spaced well apart - when the energy flux is low? The region of influence of a photon would have to be far greater than one wavelength, wouldn't it?

[Vern]

A unified theory, even! That's very ambitious, my friend. Good luck with it.
What happens with your diagram when photons are spaced well apart - when the energy flux is low? The region of influence of a photon would have to be far greater than one wavelength, wouldn't it?

It's not a theory [] maybe just a hunch put together for my own piece of mind. The influence of a photon would be the fields that surround the saturated points and they have to extend outward forever in space just to satisfy observations.
My Blog has links to all the thinking I've done on this.

[yor_on]

Vern, in what way do you see photons as creating gravity?
You say "Then if we allow one photon's fields to contribute to the saturation amplitude of another, we have a good candidate for the phenomena of gravity."

[Vern]

Vern, in what way do you see photons as creating gravity?
You say "Then if we allow one photon's fields to contribute to the saturation amplitude of another, we have a good candidate for the phenomena of gravity."

Hi yor_on; consider the photon model; it is an electromagnetically saturated point surrounded by electromagnetic fields that are changing in amplitude to drive the saturated point forward. As the point moves through the fields of other photons the other fields contribute to the saturation of the point so it reaches saturation at a slight offset toward increasing field strength of the other fields.

[lyner]

an electromagnetically saturated point

This new term would need an accurate definition. Do you mean a singularity?

[Vern]

This new term would need an accurate definition. Do you mean a singularity?

No; not a singularity. It is the maximum electric and magnetic force that space can support. Dr. Robert Kemp claims to have worked out the physics of it. I suspect saturation exists because amplitude is missing from calculations for Plancks Constant. E = hv.

Edit: It doesen't really have to be the maximum; it might just be a constant of EM fields akin to Plancks. Plancks Constant would derive from this more basic constant.

[lyner]

Is there any reason why you would 'want' a photon to be something which travels through space? (Apart from the fact that it is a very easy concept involving some very cosy ideas - sorry for the patronising tone)

You see, the only quantisation that I can see is needed is the energy - nothing else.

[Vern]

Is there any reason why you would 'want' a photon to be something which travels through space? (Apart from the fact that it is a very easy concept involving some very cosy ideas - sorry for the patronising tone)

You see, the only quantisation that I can see is needed is the energy - nothing else.

I had not thought about that before I saw your previous post where you point out that there is really no need to visualize something going from a to b. But I need a visualization like that to suggest that the Fine Structure Constant is the ratio of the bend radius of the path of an electron's comprising photon and the charge of the electron.

[lightarrow]

Vern, how does your model explain the fact a photon's wavelenght and amplitude would vary from one reference frame to another?

[A Davis]

Hi Vern you surprise me at times you are very close to the answer I don't know if you can get hold of the book by Stratton on Electromagnetic Radiation it was written about 60 years ago, it gives the solution for electromagnetic radiation inside a sphere, the maths gives spherical harmonics look at the phi solution.

[Vern]

Vern, how does your model explain the fact a photon's wavelenght and amplitude would vary from one reference frame to another?

My view of nature needs a fixed frame of reference. That would probably be the frame of the CMB which in this scheme is just the natural temperature of space debris heated by starlight. Eddington estimated this to be about 4K.

Relativity phenomena results from the natural construct of mass which is as H. Ziegler proposed back in 1909.
It needs flat space-time in order for relativity phenomena to develop from the invariance of the speed of the elementary constituents of mass.

[Vern]

Hi Vern you surprise me at times you are very close to the answer I don't know if you can get hold of the book by Stratton on Electromagnetic Radiation it was written about 60 years ago, it gives the solution for electromagnetic radiation inside a sphere, the maths gives spherical harmonics look at the phi solution.

Thanks for the reference; I had not seen that work; I'll look for it.

[yor_on]

Vern, in what way do you see photons as creating gravity?
You say "Then if we allow one photon's fields to contribute to the saturation amplitude of another, we have a good candidate for the phenomena of gravity."

Hi yor_on; consider the photon model; it is an electromagnetically saturated point surrounded by electromagnetic fields that are changing in amplitude to drive the saturated point forward. As the point moves through the fields of other photons the other fields contribute to the saturation of the point so it reaches saturation at a slight offset toward increasing field strength of the other fields.

Hi Vern:)
Are you proposing that gravity is a electromagnetic force?
Shouldn't then gravity be propagated at 'c', at all times?

But gravity react 'instantly' in many situations?

"  anyone with a computer and orbit computation or numerical integration software can verify the consequences of introducing a delay into gravitational interactions. The effect on computed orbits is usually disastrous because conservation of angular momentum is destroyed.

Expressed less technically by Sir Arthur Eddington, this means: “If the Sun attracts Jupiter towards its present position S, and Jupiter attracts the Sun towards its present position J, the two forces are in the same line and balance. But if the Sun attracts Jupiter toward its previous position S’, and Jupiter attracts the Sun towards its previous position J’, when the force of attraction started out to cross the gulf, then the two forces give a couple.

This couple will tend to increase the angular momentum of the system, and, acting cumulatively, will soon cause an appreciable change of period, disagreeing with observations if the speed is at all comparable with that of light.” (Eddington, 1920, p. 94) See Figure 1.

Indeed, it is widely accepted, even if less widely known, that the speed of gravity in Newton’s Universal Law is unconditionally infinite. (E.g., Misner et al., 1973, p. 177) This is usually not mentioned in proximity to the statement that GR reduces to Newtonian gravity in the low-velocity, weak-field limit because of the obvious question it begs about how that can be true if the propagation speed in one model is the speed of light, and in the other model it is infinite.

The same dilemma comes up in many guises: Why do photons from the Sun travel in directions that are not parallel to the direction of Earth’s gravitational acceleration toward the Sun?

Why do total eclipses of the Sun by the Moon reach maximum eclipse about 40 seconds before the Sun and Moon’s gravitational forces align?

How do binary pulsars anticipate each other’s future position, velocity, and acceleration faster than the light time between them would allow?

How can black holes have gravity when nothing can get out because escape speed is greater than the speed of light?"

Also, as the link points out, gravity has no aberration
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp

One doesn't have to accept all of it, but the questions stated there are relevant to your idea.
If you propose gravity to be electromagnetic you will need to explain them.

[Vern]

Hi yor_on; I think gravity propagates at the speed of light. I don't see the problem you say that Eddington had with that. My thread in the New Theories section expands on my views. I'm reluctant to discuss them here since they are highly speculative.

Or you can just Google: Brown Photonic Theory and it will be right on top []

[A Davis]

It's strange I have no problems at all the solution for the photon is cylindrical and electromagnetic, curl up the  photon into a spherical solution and one produces a Particle and the process is reversible, the duality principle. When an electron joins with a nucleus it uncurls and produces a wave function De Broglie and Quantum Mechanics.

[lyner]

Have you thought about a possible 'size' for this curled up jobbie?

[Vern]

Have you thought about a possible 'size' for this curled up jobbie?

I'm not sure I understand the idea A Davis is contemplating. In my view the size of any particle resulting from a curled up photon would be a circumference equal to one wave length of the photon. It is pure speculation of course.

[A Davis]

The solution is called half integer spin, and has the equation is 2.π.r = λ/2. the circumference is produced in half a wavelength, the circle is not centered at the origin but is shifted by r from the origin, along −x if you like but it is actually in the phi plane. The full maths is described in the book by Stratton and the solution of Maxwells equations inside a sphere was solved by Debye.. The actual radius depends upon how fast the velocity of light is inside the solution and reduces with increasing n value when solving the half integer bessel functions J(n+1/2).

[Vern]

The solution is called half integer spin, and has the equation is 2.π.r = λ/2. the circumference is produced in half a wavelength, the circle is not centered at the origin but is shifted by r from the origin, along −x if you like but it is actually in the phi plane. The full maths is described in the book by Stratton and the solution of Maxwells equations inside a sphere was solved by Debye.. The actual radius depends upon how fast the velocity of light is inside the solution and reduces with increasing n value when solving the half integer bessel functions J(n+1/2).

I thought half integer spin would require 720 degrees for the observed state to repeat itself.

[A Davis]

No it's 180 degrees half of 360. This means that the soluton repeats it self every half cycle and produces a monopole, the solution has charge because the positive and negative variations of a sinusoid are lost in this type of solution. It's difficult to show this without drawings  but I can't do it on this platform.