Atoms, shells

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Offline erickejah

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Atoms, shells
« on: 14/01/2009 01:21:47 »
1.Why are shells in atoms named as K,L,m etc. instead of A,B,C?
2.And why are there atoms that don't fill the number of electrons given by 2n^2 in the shells, don't they have to overpass the max the go into the next shell?

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #1 on: 14/01/2009 01:23:22 »
And why are there atoms that don't fill the number of electrons given by 2n^2 in the shells, don't they have to overpass the max the go into the next shell?
I'm not sure what you mean by this... [???]

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #2 on: 14/01/2009 01:33:14 »
As for your first question, Charles Barkla labeled them with the letters K, L, M, N, O, P, and Q. I've got no idea why but obviously it has stuck.

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #3 on: 14/01/2009 01:33:19 »
1st diagram its ok,, i saw one like the 2nd one few day ago. The thing is that i dont know if it is valid.[diagram=392_0][diagram=393_0]

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #4 on: 14/01/2009 01:37:37 »
You mean like 2 electron in the first shell (K), 3 in the second (L) and 6 in the third (M)? Or are you talking about the orbitals. E.g 1s, 2s, 2p etc...?

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #5 on: 14/01/2009 01:38:44 »
yep,,

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #6 on: 14/01/2009 01:40:26 »
You mean like 2 electron in the first shell (K), 3 in the second (L) and 6 in the third (M)? Or are you talking about the orbitals. E.g 1s, 2s, 2p etc...?
yes why the electrons dont fill the spaces in the 2 shell?

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Offline Chemistry4me

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Atoms, shells
« Reply #7 on: 14/01/2009 01:42:21 »
Are you asking why the diagram is as it is? Where did you find it?

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #8 on: 14/01/2009 01:44:54 »
Are you asking why the diagram is as it is? Where did you find it?
yep, I forgot where i saw it but i know that it was an altered element

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #9 on: 14/01/2009 01:49:55 »
i just found an element: ruthenium and its shell structure goes like this:2.8.18.15.1,http://www.webelements.com/ruthenium/atoms.html, why does that happens? would not the positive charge attract the electrons an squeeze then into the lower shell?

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #10 on: 14/01/2009 01:50:44 »
Well, I can't give you an exact answer but electrons can obviously move about in the atom and when they are 'excited' (absorb energy such as light) they move up into higher energy levels. Some electrons in the second shell must have moved up into the third shell so thsts why the second one isn't filled up. When the atom gets back to 'ground state' the electrons should fill up as normal.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #11 on: 14/01/2009 01:53:04 »
i just found an element: ruthenium and its shell structure goes like this:2.8.18.15.1,http://www.webelements.com/ruthenium/atoms.html, why does that happens? would not the positive charge attract the electrons an squeeze then into the lower shell?
Ah, okay, I see what you mean now. Do you know about orbitals or subshells? Thats the only way that I can explain it, if you want to hear about it [:)]... It could take a few minutes  [::)] [::)]

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #12 on: 14/01/2009 01:54:45 »
of course, im starving of scientific knowledge.  [:D]

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #13 on: 14/01/2009 01:56:41 »
Okay, what you have been taught at school might be that electrons fill up shell by shell, 2 in the first, then 8 then 18 and so on... am I correct?

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #14 on: 14/01/2009 01:58:12 »
not really, just that by using 2n^2 u can calculated the max# of electrons in each shell

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #15 on: 14/01/2009 02:09:32 »
Electrons in the same energy level (for example: K) can have slightly different energies, so each main level can be divided into energy sublevels. The 1st level (K) has one sublevel, the 2nd (L) has two and the 3rd (M)has three. In general, nth level has n sublevels.
Electrons in the same sublevel may be found in different regions in the space around the nucleus. They are said to occupy different orbitals.
At any level (K, L, M, N etc...), the first sublevel consists of one orbital can an s orbital; the second consists of 3 orbitals called p orbitals; the third level consists of 5 orbitals which are called d orbitals. So the first level (K), which has only one sublevel, has only one s orbital. The second level (L) has two sublevels, and therefore has one s and three p orbitals. The third level (M), which has three sublevels, has one s and three p and 5 d orbitals.
Each orbital can be occupied by one or two electrons

Are you with me so far? How does this have anything to do with your question you ask? [::)] [::)]
You'll soon find out. [:)] [;D]

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #16 on: 14/01/2009 02:13:21 »
ok,, still processing but keep on

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #17 on: 14/01/2009 02:15:19 »
Here is a diagram:

[diagram=394_0]

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #18 on: 14/01/2009 02:16:20 »
Each of those boxes is an orbital, each orbital can hold one or two electrons.

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #19 on: 14/01/2009 02:16:40 »
got it, the diagram is very helpful

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #20 on: 14/01/2009 02:21:09 »
The electron configuration of an atom or ion can be written in a way that shows:
•the energy levels of the electrons
•the orbitals occupied by electrons
•the total number of electrons in that atom or ion.

For example, sodium has 11 electrons. Its electron configuration is:
1s22s22p63s1
The superscipts 2261 gives the total number of electrons. The letters s and p descirbe the orbitals involved, and the large numbers 1 (K), 2(L) and 3(M) descirbe the energy levels.
Nearly done! [:)] You still with me? [;)]

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #21 on: 14/01/2009 02:22:33 »
yep

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #22 on: 14/01/2009 02:28:20 »
Electrons fill orbitals of lowest energy first. The order of in which electrons fill sublevels is:
1s → 2s → 2p → 3s → 3p → 4s → 3d → 4p → 5s → 4d → 5p → 6s → 4f → 5d → 6p → 7s → 5f → 6d

Now, you will notice that the 4s orbital actually fills before the 3d orbitals, as I have shown in the diagram. So the electrons enter the N shell before the M shell is filled up. Does that explain it to you? If you want me to do the ruthenium example, I can show you.  You can see that the P shell actually gets some electrons before the N shell is even filled up ! (6s filled before 4f)
« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 04:50:20 by Chemistry4me »

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #23 on: 14/01/2009 02:33:11 »
I forgot to add, the fourth sublevel consists of 7 orbitals which are called f orbitals.

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #24 on: 14/01/2009 02:35:23 »
WoW, so that is how it works,, that is very interesting. thanks for sharing that with me i feel way smarter now [;D]. so where did u learn all this?

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #25 on: 14/01/2009 02:36:31 »
do those letters stand for anything?

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #26 on: 14/01/2009 02:37:29 »
Huh? What do you mean? In school of course! [;D] [;D] This ins't exactly rocket science, no offense intended dude  [;)]

If you want me to do the ruthenium example, I can show you. [:)]
Even better, why don't you try it yourself.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #27 on: 14/01/2009 02:38:29 »
Historical names:
s = sharp
p = principal
d = diffuse
f = fundamental

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #28 on: 14/01/2009 02:39:34 »
ok ill try

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #29 on: 14/01/2009 02:39:46 »
I just going to pop out for a little while, nice to chat erickejah!

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #30 on: 14/01/2009 03:00:05 »
First  ruthenium has 44 electrons:

I will use 4 shells because they add up to 60 and 44 can fit in there.
 1st shell: (max2)
1s^2
2nd shell: (max8)
2s^2_2p^6
3rd shell: (max18)
3s^2_3p^6_3d^10
4th shell: (max32)
4s^2_4p^6_4d^8

Now ill fill the spaces in between, from the s to f

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #31 on: 14/01/2009 03:01:30 »
if the 44 electrons fit in the 1st four shells why did they added the 5th one?
like they show in this http://www.webelements.com/ruthenium/atoms.html web.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #32 on: 14/01/2009 04:50:50 »
Remember:
Electrons fill orbitals of lowest energy first. The order of in which electrons fill sublevels is:
1s → 2s → 2p → 3s → 3p → 4s → 3d → 4p → 5s → 4d → 5p → 6s → 4f → 5d → 6p → 7s → 5f → 6d

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #33 on: 14/01/2009 04:57:07 »
1s → 2s → 2p → 3s → 3p → 4s → 3d → 4p → 5s → 4d → 5p → 6s → 4f → 5d → 6p → 7s → 5f → 6d

Ruthenium: 1s22s22p63s23p64s23d104p64d75s1.

Aha, ruthenium wasn't a good one to choose, because what I've told you sort of goes out the door!

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #34 on: 14/01/2009 05:07:57 »
I should also have added that: if there are orbitals of the same energy in a sublevel, the electrons will fill them singly until there is one electron in each orbital. In this way, electron-electron repulsion is minimised. For example nitrogen's electron configuration is: 1s22s22p3 and if you think back to that diagram, there will be 2 electrons in the first red box (1s2), 2 in the orange box above that (2s2) but the other three orange boxes will have one electron each instead of two in the first one, one in the second and none in the third.

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #35 on: 15/01/2009 03:22:50 »
i got it now  [;D] [;D] [8D] [8D], i feel smart. tx for the explanation I'm sure u have gain prestige in this forum. not much people has that patience. [:D]

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #36 on: 15/01/2009 03:48:00 »
No worries erickejah [:)], any time! [;)]