[K.Margiani (OP)]

Can you see huge streaked terrain along the mid ocean ridge above thin lithosphere plates, after huge fissure-outflows at the boundaries?
Clue for huge violent evaporation and global changing the water levels.
A lot of arcs along the streaked terrain are greatest proof of the fissure-outflows! 

[ Invalid Attachment ]

[K.Margiani (OP)]

We have greatest proof now! The Bahamas islands were much wider at the boundary and were important part of the marine power ATLANTIS!
1975; Twenty researchers, including archaeologists, a marine biologist, geologist,
and cartographer dove onto ruins on the sea floor off Bimini in 1975 and
brought back artifacts from which they concluded that the walls and roads
were made of materials not found in that part of the world.
1977; report of a huge pyramid found off Cay Sal in the Bahamas, photographed
by Ari Marshall's expedition, about 150 feet underwater. The pyramid was
about 650 feet high. Mysteriously, the surrounding water was lit by
sparkling white water flowing out of the openings in the pyramid and
surrounded by green water, instead of the black water everywhere else at
that depth.

[LoneStar77]

Carl Martin Now you have Exclusive right to publish my Atlantis map in your site!

Okay, I thank you for the honor, but I'm afraid I'll have to decline. The proof of which you speak may be clear to you in Georgian, and I have great respect for that, but it is losing almost everything in translation to English.  Even I do not understand most of what you said. The little I do understand does not sound like proof and I demand much more of myself on such things. I don't think our fellow posters are disrespecting your knowledge. Perhaps it is better to say that they demand a higher level of proof, as do I. Each point you make should be made clearly and thoroughly, citing references for each claim. This could help your presentation to others. I looked over your website and found it largely unintelligible. That may hurt, but if you seek truth, you have to be self aware and know when you need to improve something. Take it from a professional writer, award-winning essayist and scientist -- it needs a great deal of improvement. Look over a site like Wikipedia. There you have anyone and everyone contributing, but the rules require references, proper citations and the like. Some articles are better than others, but those that are found lacking are flagged as such.

Your map appears to be a copy of Kircher's. I'm not certain I feel comfortable accepting it as a real map of Atlantis, if the place really existed.

Geologically, the map doesn't fit the tectonics of the region -- the plate boundaries, the current movements of the plates and my interpretation of what those movements might have been prior to such a formation. I'm not saying that Kircher's drawing is a fake or a fiction. I will say that it is a vast stretch to accept it as valid.

On the subject of your native land, I think Georgia is equally fascinating. In my own research, I have found that it may be related to the children of Atlantis. The myth of Jason and the Argonauts and Princess Medea have captivated my imagination and curiosity. The myth talks of a dragon protecting the golden fleece. What if dragons were not real, living and breathing flying snakes, but mechanical flying craft? Sounds pretty far-fetched, I know. But examine the legends of dragons, especially the Greek and Egyptian. Also the story of the founding of Athens by Cecrops who was supposed to be half man, half snake is a possible clue. Could Cecrops merely have been the captain of the airship poking his head out of the top hatch to address his men? Could the warriors who sprang from the ground when Cadmus sowed the teeth of the golden dragon have been passengers of the dragon ship? When the golden dragon then floated silently away into the air, that makes me think it was either lighter-than-air craft or some kind of anti-gravity or warp drive. Consider the story of Medea after she was forced to leave her second husband, the king of Athens. She apparently flew away on a golden dragon. Was this the same dragon that was guarding the golden fleece? Could it be that Medea gained entre into the royal court of Athens because she flew into town in the dragon ship? Okay, far fetched, yes!

On the subject of myth, one researcher (on an A&E video on Atlantis) has said that Plato's story was clearly a fiction because there were no other versions of the Atlantis myth as there were for the other pantheon myths of Greece. There are two fallacies here. One is the researcher's assumption that the Atlantis story was like other Greek myths. The story of Atlantis had not been around like the other myths. It had only been a local dinner tale to the family, friends and descendants of Solon (the Greek statesman who heard the tale in Egypt c.600 BCE). Of course there weren't other versions... or were there? The other fallacy, is that another version of the story has to mention Atlantis by name and include all of Solon's details.

Consider this comparison:

• Atlantis was supposedly the most advanced nation of all time.
• The island empire was swallowed whole by the sea.
• The refugees left the capital city and perhaps other regions.
• The refugees took with them full knowledge of civilization.

and:

• Metis was the wisest individual of all time.
• Metis was swallowed whole by her lover, Zeus.
• Athena was born from her father's head.
• Athena was born full grown.

Could the titan, Metis, be matriarchal Atlantis in its final days. Could Athena be the matriarchal refugees who fled the capital (head) city with the full maturity of a civilized people, unlike the primitive hunter-gatherers who were their neighbors in Eurasia?

While far from proof of anything, the comparison is more than a little interesting.

The Basques, the Georgians, some, if not all, Native Americans, the Suomi (Finns), the Hungarians, Etruscans, Sumerians, Dravidians, Mon-Khmer and the Turks all speak agglutinative languages. That, by itself, doesn't mean much. But comparing what may be the most sentimentally favorite words from each language does raise some interesting suspicions of a linguistic connection of some kind. What are these sentimental favorites? Mother and father, of course. The Basque and Etruscan words for mother and father are a near perfect match, except that the gender is reversed. Basque for mother is a lot like Etruscan for father, and vice-versa. Could it be that children of matriarchal Atlantis eventually switched to a patriarchal or more egalitarian form of society?

The Greeks and Romans despised the Etruscans because they gave their women so much power. What arrogance! Could it just as easily have been that the women gave the men power? If we look into the Etruscan pantheon, we find that there are a god and goddess that have names that are near equivalent to the Basque words for mother and father -- not gender swapped! Could it be that in ancient times, between the time of the god and goddess and historical Etruscans, the word for "mother" stayed with the task rather than the gender? Then men would have become the new "mothers," or "rulers." If my transliteration of Georgian is at all accurate, it appears that the Georgian word for father is "mama," while the Georgian word for mother is "deda."

While far from proof of a link to Atlantis, this, plus the mythical elements from Colchis (ancient Georgia), and other biological evidence, tend to suggest a possible link.

A little more of my thoughts on these subjects might be found at newbielink:http://blog.AncientSuns.com [nonactive] and newbielink:http://www.EdgeOfRemembrance.com [nonactive].

I suggest, my Georgian friend, that you temper your enthusiasm for your subjects with restraint. Your proof may be strong in your own mind, but it remains very weak in translation. You really need to work on that part before others can give you the acknowledgment you seek. That's a lot of work, I know, but that is the mountain in your path. Hope this helps.

[K.Margiani (OP)]

Thank you Carl Martin. Please use that Titans in the myths mean people from ATLANTIS. Very many gods were grew up there (among TITANS)!
I have written that first stage during the modern mankind evolution had only ATLANTIS!
Proof:
Modern Azores Islands were peaks of the  mountain ridges in the center of Atlantis kingdom! At the Azores Islands A huge pyramid, in 10,000 feet of Atlantic water, was reported to have been found with a pulsating crystal on top of it, by Tony Benik's expedition. The group also found an opaque crystal tablet there, and reported that when a light was beamed through it, mysterious inscriptions (Hieroglyphs of Atlantis K.M.) became visible.

My comment: Everything was discovered within pre-flood terrain of main island (Poseidia) shown on the decoded map. Azores Islands are in the center of the decoded map!

I’m very tired and  have to cease my publication temporary!
If someone will publish interesting article for me I will answer by E-mail. kmargini@yahoo.com

ATLANTIS is DECODED!!!

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[lyner]

What a load of ......



Is this supposed to be a Science forum?

Tolkein does this sort of thing so much better.

[JimBob]

I agree. Getting people who know nothing about geology, let alone people who disregard the scientific process - observe, experiment, verify THEN hypothesize - belong in a forum for people who would rather decline the scientific community. They are certainly NOT going to convert any scientifically-minded people.

[LoneStar77]

What a load of ......
Is this supposed to be a Science forum?
Tolkein does this sort of thing so much better.

Ad hominem is not very scientific. Your blanket statement is also very non-specific. If you're referring to K.Margiani, I have to say he has a long way to go with his scientific acumen. His use of generalities and absolutes is also non-scientific, like yours. Is your statement from frustration or impatience with his poor scientific acumen? I don't blame you. But perhaps a generous spirit would help. If he's lacking something, help him find it. He does have a touch of arrogance that blocks his acceptance of criticism. I hope he gets over it, otherwise he won't learn.

If you're referring to my input as well, I would ask for at least one specific.

One thing that is not stated in the "manual on being a scientist" (if such a thing existed) is that there are two types of skepticism. The restraint-based type is constructive. It helps to keep a scientist from jumping to a conclusion too early. K.Margiani needs a great deal of work on this. The self-indulgent kind of skepticism has a lot in common with the illogics -- ad hominem, non-sequitur, and the like. They are a lazy attitude and frequently not at all constructive.

I agree. Getting people who know nothing about geology, let alone people who disregard the scientific process - observe, experiment, verify THEN hypothesize - belong in a forum for people who would rather decline the scientific community. They are certainly NOT going to convert any scientifically-minded people.

I love science, too, JimBob. But your statement is equally non-specific. Who are "people?" And you're taking a great leap by stating that those people "know nothing about geology." Such an absolute is not at all logical and not based on observable fact. Anyone who knows the difference between a rock and a tree, or between a mountain and a valley, knows at least something about geology. And who knows, "people" may know a little more than that.

I applaud DoctorBeaver's attempts to engage K.Margiani in conversation about his theories. He was demanding and patient with our Georgian friend, attempting to elicit some degree of logic. Your statement about him being "gullible" was not at all scientific and an inaccurate generality in light of some of the things DoctorBeaver said. Scientists can also be compassionate humans with respect for one another and respect for non-scientists, as well.

Sometimes scientists can learn something from an "outsider." For more on this subject of "outsiderness," check out my award-winning essay, "Outsiderness in the Scientific Community," at newbielink:http://www.ancientsuns.com/fwd/rcm/other_writing.html [nonactive]. I once heard a story from an artist who once worked for NASA about one such incident. Scientists had been working on a solution for a universal docking mechanism. One of the scientists told his son about his work, and his young son asked, "Can't they use a funnel?" Bingo! Also, scientists can be surprisingly ignorant at times. The mini-series on Oppenheimer shows one such incident where scientists are debating ardently about the friction inside their device. After some time, they realize with much chagrin that their arguments were wasted. Wear and tear from friction is meaningless inside a nuclear bomb.

Okay, let's get down to science. If you're interested, let's talk about the merits or demerits of my observations from the literature -- scientific and otherwise. Perhaps Atlantis never existed. That's certainly possible, but some of the evidence I've gathered seems highly suggestive of its possible existence ... at least to me.

Carl Martin
newbielink:http://www.AncientSuns.com [nonactive]
newbielink:http://www.SpaceSoftware.net [nonactive]

[DoctorBeaver]

I asked Mr Margiani to produce an example of a trident in Etruscan scripts, which he claims exists. In all my years studying ancient languages I have never seen such an example. If he can produce an example then I shall give at least that part of his theory more credence.

[DoctorBeaver]

Here's another interesting point. During the era in which Atlantis was supposed to have existed it is estimated that you could feed 1.4 people per hectare of farmland. Multiplying that by the alleged 64 million inhabitants of Atlantis means you would need an area of farmland 8 times the size of France (roughly half the size of the U.S.A.). Judging by the map Mr Margiani has posted, Atlantis was nowhere near that size.

JimBob has already pointed out the geological inconsistencies and I can see other areas where Mr Margiani's claims do not fit with known facts.

I do not dismiss the possibility that Plato's Atlantis story is loosely based on fact; but I stress the word "loosely". One theory put forward is that all of Plato's figures should be divided by 10 - thus making Thera a good candidate. As Plato was writing about events that occured many centuries previous (and which had been recounted only orally) the possibility of exaggeration in the continual re-telling of the myth cannot be discounted.

You see, I like to work with facts or, at least, theories with a high degree of scientific validity. I have seen neither in any of Mr Margiani's post so far.

[lyner]

LoneStar77
My "load of" reference was to the original premise, not your post(s). No offence intended, in fact. Yes it is frustrating to read arrogant statements which pose as containing some serious ideas. When I made my reply I was about to launch into a detailed riposte but realised it would be a waste of time.
I am not always such a grumpy old sod.

[lyner]

Sometimes scientists can learn something from an "outsider." For more on this subject of "outsiderness," check out my award-winning essay, "Outsiderness in the Scientific Community," at http://www.ancientsuns.com/fwd/rcm/other_writing.html. I once heard a story from an artist who once worked for NASA about one such incident. Scientists had been working on a solution for a universal docking mechanism. One of the scientists told his son about his work, and his young son asked, "Can't they use a funnel?" Bingo! Also, scientists can be surprisingly ignorant at times. The mini-series on Oppenheimer shows one such incident where scientists are debating ardently about the friction inside their device. After some time, they realize with much chagrin that their arguments were wasted. Wear and tear from friction is meaningless inside a nuclear bomb.

I think there may be some confusion  in this paragraph between the words Scientist and Engineer. The man's son came up with an engineering solution, not a scientific truth.

[K.Margiani (OP)]

Here's another interesting point. During the era in which Atlantis was supposed to have existed it is estimated that you could feed 1.4 people per hectare of farmland. Multiplying that by the alleged 64 million inhabitants of Atlantis means you would need an area of farmland 8 times the size of France (roughly half the size of the U.S.A.). Judging by the map Mr Margiani has posted, Atlantis was nowhere near that size.

Yes… this is impossible to study in the Oxford and Cambridge. Only my University has enough level to explain that!

In the middle of the last inter-flood period (16000 bp) the area in which Atlantis was existed became small for feeding and started process of agriculture-missions. Your claiming is very interesting to explain the three agriculture-missions in Egypt, Mesopotamia and India. 

[Bored chemist]

If there were any credibility left in this topic then I think that saying
"Yes… this is impossible to study in the Oxford and Cambridge. Only my University has enough level to explain that!"
lost it.

[DoctorBeaver]

Yes… this is impossible to study in the Oxford and Cambridge

Who said anything about Oxford & Cambridge? 1.4 people per hectare is the figure accepted throughout the archaeological community after years of study by experts from around the world (experts are people who actually know what they are talking about). I just did some simple maths.

I think you need to look at your theories critically & check your "facts" against expert knowledge & opinion. You seem to be relying on conjecture and ideas that have very little basis in reality. Much of what you claim is either wrong or impossible. As things stand, you are just making yourself look silly and ill-informed.

[K.Margiani (OP)]

1. I only said my university is good as well!
2. Without the agriculture-colonies from 16,000 B.C. the atlantian population could not be increased about 64,000,000 at the boundary 10,500 B.P.

[LoneStar77]

I am not always such a grumpy old sod.

SophieCentaur, I wouldn't know anything about being grumpy, but don't tell my wife; she'd say I'm a liar.  []

I think there may be some confusion  in this paragraph between the words Scientist and Engineer. The man's son came up with an engineering solution, not a scientific truth.

No confusion, just sloppiness on my part. The story about Oppenheimer was also an engineering concern. Thanks!  [:I]

One theory put forward is that all of Plato's figures should be divided by 10 - thus making Thera a good candidate. As Plato was writing about events that occured many centuries previous (and which had been recounted only orally) the possibility of exaggeration in the continual re-telling of the myth cannot be discounted.

You see, I like to work with facts or, at least, theories with a high degree of scientific validity. I have seen neither in any of Mr Margiani's post so far.

I agree on both counts.

About Atlantis, not only the factor of ten for size, but also for years (900 instead of 9000). I seem to remember another researcher pointing out that the word for "larger than" is very similar to "midway between" in Greek -- making Plato's Timaeus read "midway between" Libya (Africa) and Asia (Asia Minor), which would likewise place Atlantis in the vicinity of Thera.

That's a pretty clever piece of work, but for me it falls a bit short. If Plato had not mentioned southwestern Spain as being near Atlantis, Thera would likely have won the argument (whether or not it was indeed the real Atlantis [as always, if Atlantis really ever existed]). The reference to Gadira or Gadirus is pretty damning to the Thera angle, despite its cleverness. How much of Plato do we throw out and how much do we keep? That's a tough question, but the puzzle is not going to die easily.

When I first read Timaeus and Critias, I was turned off by the idea of a "mud filled ocean." That seemed pretty unreal. But then I got to thinking about what would result if a Texas-sized plot of land were to subside within hours, perhaps in fits and starts. At least one and perhaps several mega-tsunamis might have occurred ... any one of which might have been a kilometer or more high at landfall. Imagine the amount of topsoil stirred up by such an event. Mud filled ocean? Maybe not the thick, mucky kind I'm used to calling "mud," but perhaps watered down muddy ocean liquid.

Three events from science coincide with Plato's approximate date (~600 BCE for Solon + 9000 years = 9600 BCE). That's not saying much, but the types of events raised goosebumps on me.

The abrupt end to the Younger Dryas is not clearly understood, yet. Scientists have a pretty good idea what might have caused its equally abrupt start -- a freshwater glacial spill from the North American ice cap. This put a stopper in the Atlantic's thermohaline cycle -- Earth's temperature regulator. Earth was in another mini-Ice Age for 1300 years. Imagine one or more mega-tsunamis stirring up the water in the North Atlantic, perhaps breaking through the thermohaline cap. So, Atlantis is a possible explanation for the end to the Younger Dryas. And, again, the years are a veritable match -- 9620 BCE (plus or minus some error factor -- I think around 50 years or so).

Maybe we don't need the plus or minus. In the Greenland ice cores (GISP2) is a moderately large volcanic trace at about 9620 BCE (11,569.77 BP). Of course, that could have been a volcano any place on planet Earth, unless there was some kind of chemical signature that can be traced to a specific region. Still, the possibility exists that Plato's infamous lost island empire could be the culprit.  After all, the dates match, and such an event would seem to be consistent with a large-scale tectonic event such as a Texas-sized collapse.

Coinciding with these two events (and Plato's putative disaster) is a 2-meter drop in sea level worldwide (Nature, 7 Dec. 1989). Doesn't sound like much, but I did a little calculation based on surface area of oceans and major seas, and the possible sub-surface volume of Atlantis (using a body slightly larger than Texas). The result of such a subsidence would be about 2 meters in sea level drop worldwide. Very interesting, if I do say so myself.

So, my friends. We have proof, not of Atlantis, but that something very, very BIG happened the same year Atlantis was supposed to have gone under. Three points of evidence from different disciplines. I elaborate a bit more on these three data points in the background article for my most recent novel project, newbielink:http://www.ancientsuns.com/fwd/eor/yd.html [nonactive].

Comments?  Criticisms?

And hey! I need some feedback on this stuff because I'm writing a book. Sometimes I'm full of it and need a reality check. So, have at it.

LoneStar77
(Carl Martin)
newbielink:http://www.MissionAtlantis.com [nonactive]

[DoctorBeaver]

Carl - you raise some interesting points. Unfortunately I know nothing about geology.

I shall digest the rest of what you wrote and regurgitate my musings on it later  []

[K.Margiani (OP)]

I could not be ever decoded Atlantis without knowledge of Geology. That was natural geological catastrophe and could be explained by geological laws only!
I’m going to write plausible book about the sunken kingdom!

[DoctorBeaver]

1. I only said my university is good as well!

Really? Let me remind you what you said earlier

Yes… this is impossible to study in the Oxford and Cambridge. Only my University has enough level to explain that!

[Bored chemist]

I’m going to write plausible book about the sunken kingdom!

I suspect that many of us will not think it's plausible.