[Variola]

Perhaps the angle would have been better if it had focussed on reported cases of high Vit D3 levels having some significant benefit on a condition? With subsequent discussion and analysis after. 

[Kevan Gelling]

The answer to the question "Could vitamin D kill viruses?" is YES

As iko pointed out in this post, vitamin D is involved in the production of human cathelicidin - LL-37.

Human Cathelicidin (LL-37), a Multifunctional Peptide, is Expressed by Ocular Surface Epithelia and has Potent Antibacterial and Antiviral Activity

We report for the first time that LL-37 demonstrates significant antiviral inhibitory activity (>98% inhibition) against HSV-1 [Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1], the leading viral cause of corneal blindness in industrialized countries.

Additionally, we report for the first time that LL- 37 demonstrated statistically significant inhibitory activity in vitro against Ad19 [Adenovirus], a major cause of conjunctivitis and epidemic keratoconjunctivitis in local and global epidemics.

Selective killing of vaccinia virus by LL-37: implications for eczema vaccinatum

The current study is the first to identify human and murine cathelicidins as innate antimicrobial peptides capable of interfering in vitro and in vivo with replication of vaccinia virus.

The antimicrobial peptide LL-37 inhibits HIV-1 replication

Here we demonstrate that LL-37 inhibits HIV-1 replication in PBMC, including primary CD4+ T cells

[Bored chemist]

LL37 isn't vit D.
Imagine someone who's body failed to make LL37 for some reason. All the Vit D in the world wouldn't help him by killing viruses.
Clearly someone who is deficient in Vit D is going to be in poor health and less able to fight infection but that's hardly the same as saying vitamin D kills viruses.

Sadly there are many people in the world who do not get enough to eat. This leaves them open to all sorts of infections including viruses.
It's fair to say that chocolate cake would help them simply because it would provide calories (and some vitamins + proteins etc).

Do you claim that chocolate cake kills viruses?

[iko]

Bored lawyer,

We are playing with words, aren't we?
I could find many examples to justify that someone somewhere might dare say:
"Vitamin D kills viruses"
We agree with you: it may do it INDIRECTLY.
Vaccinations kill diseases, eliminating them by immune activation as well.
Don't be too fussy. Please  []

ikod

[Bored chemist]

So, you do think that, albeit indirectly, chocolate cake kills viruses.
Fair enough. My opinion is different.
Incidentally, I think that many aspects of the immune system depend on one or more vitamins in one way or another. For example it's fair to say that without our skin we wuld be much more susceptible to viral attack. Vitamin C is vital in the production of the collagen which holds that skin together.
Without vitamin C we would be more prone to viral infection.
Does that make vitamin C a viruscide?
Do all vitamins kill viruses?
In the end, what doesn't kill them?

The problem with accepting Kevan's post as evidence thet Vit D kills viruses is that it leads to the view that damned near everything else does. That rather reduces the meaning of the statement.

[Kevan Gelling]

"I didn't kill him, your honour, it was the bullet.  I only pulled the trigger!"

VDRs (vitamin D receptors) occur next to CAMP (cathelicidin anti-microbial peptide) genes and up-regulate them (turn them on) in response to infection.

Guilty!

[Bored chemist]

 The statement "I didn't kill him, your honour, it was the bullet.  I only pulled the trigger!"
Might be made in court by the accused- but it's not going to get him very far.

On the other hand, the statement "Your honour, the cause of death was a gunshot wound to chest." is likely to come from a scientist and would be accepted.
There's a difference between cause and culpability which is why we generally accept that very young children and people with mental health problems may not be guilty of murder, even when it's clear they killed someone. Of course, unless you claim that vitamin D has free will and is responsible for its actions this whole idea is a strawman.


I guess it's entirely possible that someone could fatally shoot someone accidentally because the bullet was faulty.
For example the security services sometimes use hollow point amunition - the idea being that it doesn't generally go through someone.
Imagine that a security officer on a plane shot a terrorist but, unfortunately, because the bullet was faulty, it went through the terrorist and also killed a bystander.
In that instance, the claim "it wasn't me; it was the bullet", would be a legitimate reason.

I take it you are planning to prescribe chocolate cake as a viruscide.

[iko]

So, you do think that, albeit indirectly, chocolate cake kills viruses.
Fair enough. My opinion is different.
Incidentally, I think that many aspects of the immune system depend on one or more vitamins in one way or another. For example it's fair to say that without our skin we wuld be much more susceptible to viral attack. Vitamin C is vital in the production of the collagen which holds that skin together.
Without vitamin C we would be more prone to viral infection.
Does that make vitamin C a viruscide?
Do all vitamins kill viruses?
In the end, what doesn't kill them?

Few vitamin deficiencies lead to an infection as cause of death.
Scurvy is one: either infection or cardiac arrest (not hemorrhage as commonly thought).
Thiamine (B1) deficiency (beri-beri) gives you heart failure or nervous system damage from confusion to paralysis and coma. Immune defense still works fine, but cell 'batteries' run out of energy in crucial organs, so patients die before suffering any viral or bacterial attack.
When rickets was common in children, a 13times higher incidence of pneumonia had been reported.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=4987.msg168987#msg168987

Help.  Few years ago I posted a question about vitD deficiency in leukemia:
"Could vitamin D HELP in leukemia treatment?"
Similarly, "could vitamin D help in killing viruses?"
should be the new title of this thread...  []
To have a proper discussion around here.

Dear Kevan, it's up to you, this is your topic. 

[Kevan Gelling]

And a change of title would placate BC?  I suspect his mind is made up (vitamin = alternative medicine = cr*p) which is why he is playing Pendantic Semantics.

The dictionary definition of kill is 'cause the death of'.  No free will or culpability is required.  And in the example, the security officer did 'cause the death of', i.e. kill, the bystander.

BC aside, if anyone is interested reading more on vitamin D and cathelicidin try this recent article on the genetic history of the CAMP gene - Exaptation of an ancient Alu short interspersed element provides a highly conserved vitamin D-mediated innate immune response in humans and primates (Gombart et al., 2009) - "VDR-signaling increases production of hCAP18/LL-37 protein (encoded by the CAMP gene) to kill the pathogen".  The References section contains a comprehensive list of recent research in the field.

[iko]

Thank you so much Kevan,

I'm going to print the whole article for a good reading...

"1,25(OH)(2)D(3) thus directly regulates antimicrobial peptide gene expression, revealing
 the potential of its analogues in treatment of opportunistic infections."

...a promising conclusion indeed!   []

[Bored chemist]

"I suspect his mind is made up (vitamin = alternative medicine = cr*p)"
An odd thing for you to suspect. I have made it quite clear that I know that vitamins have a vital role.
What my mind is made up about is the assertion that "vitamins can do magic" is crap.
Take some suitable virus, lets say ebola. Shake it up with some vitamin D then mix it into some saline and inject it. Feel free to extract the excess vitamin D if you are worried about its toxicity.

If you do that then if you ask me a week later, I will do the same using bleach (which does kill viruses) rather than Vit D.

[Kevan Gelling]

What my mind is made up about is the assertion that "vitamins can do magic" is crap.

Vitamin D is unique amongst vitamins because it's a pre-hormone and is part of the endocrine system.  Genetic research from the last 10-20 years has revealed that vitamin D (as calcitriol) regulates many important functions throughout the body, including immunity, inflammation and cell propagation.  These functions are linked to a number of morbidities.

Ecological studies link latitude and skin colour to 'vitamin D' morbidities; cohort studies link low vitamin D levels with 'vitamin D' morbidities; epidemiological studies show high levels of vitamin D deficiency by latitude and by skin colour; the few RCTs involving large dose supplementation show that vitamin D significantly reduces 'vitamin D' morbidities.

Not "vitamins", just vitamin D; not magic, just science.

[iko]

What my mind is made up about is the assertion that "vitamins can do magic" is crap.

Vitamin D is unique amongst vitamins because it's a pre-hormone and is part of the endocrine system.  Genetic research from the last 10-20 years has revealed that vitamin D (as calcitriol) regulates many important functions throughout the body, including immunity, inflammation and cell propagation.  These functions are linked to a number of morbidities.

Ecological studies link latitude and skin colour to 'vitamin D' morbidities; cohort studies link low vitamin D levels with 'vitamin D' morbidities; epidemiological studies show high levels of vitamin D deficiency by latitude and by skin colour; the few RCTs involving large dose supplementation show that vitamin D significantly reduces 'vitamin D' morbidities.

Not "vitamins", just vitamin D; not magic, just science.

You are exactly right Kevan,

but we have to tell the whole story:
why such a simple and cheap remedy is coming so late in modern medicine?
I can give you some good reasons to 'justify' such a delay:
- Vitamin D is not a vitamin, but a steroid hormone acting on specific cell receptors.
- The dosage in serum is tricky and expensive: large studies are coming out only now.
- Normal levels are expressed in ng/mL or nmol/ml, just for the fun of it...
- The active form, calcitriol, has been improperly used instead of replenishing 25-OHvitD pool.
- Toxicity has been overestimated: 400U/day failed where 2000U/day are making the trick.
- Cholecalciferol or vitamin D3 is a 'generic' drug, too cheap to support clinical trials.

Do you want to play the doctor?
Just read this amazing case report, free-fulltext from Canada:

http://www.jabfm.org/cgi/reprint/22/1/69

Now look for a chronic-back-pain patient, get a history of lack of sunlight exposure, no cod liver oil or vitamin D supplements and suggest her/him to have 25-OHvitaminD tested.
If the result is below 20 ng/ml...Bingo!  Send her/him to a doctor for a 50kU/week x 8weeks prescription.  A clinician will exclude any condition of vitD toxicity or intolerance and monitor calcium levels if necessary.
The following two-three weeks might be really magic for that patient...
Unbelievable? On my part, I don't think so anymore!  []



Improvement of chronic back pain or failed back surgery with vitamin D repletion: a case series.
Schwalfenberg G.

Department of Family Medicine, University of Alberta, Canada. gschwalf@telus.net

This article reviews 6 selected cases of improvement/resolution of chronic back pain or failed back surgery after vitamin D repletion in a Canadian family practice setting. Pub Med was searched for articles on chronic back pain, failed back surgery, and vitamin D deficiency. Chronic low back pain and failed back surgery may improve with repletion of vitamin D from a state of deficiency/insufficiency to sufficiency. Vitamin D insufficiency is common; repletion of vitamin D to normal levels in patients who have chronic low back pain or have had failed back surgery may improve quality of life or, in some cases, result in complete resolution of symptoms.

J Am Board Fam Med.2009 Jan-Feb;22(1):69-74.

[Bored chemist]

Just in case you all missed this the first time I posted it.
Take some suitable virus, lets say Ebola. Shake it up with some vitamin D then mix it into some saline and inject it. Feel free to extract the excess vitamin D if you are worried about its toxicity.

If you do that then if you ask me a week later, I will do the same using bleach (which does kill viruses) rather than Vit D

Unless you are prepared to take part in this experiment you are accepting that vitamin D doesn't kill viruses.
What you need is a thread called something like "Vitmin D odes some really interesting things including modifying the human immune response."

[iko]

"Vitmin D odes"...oh sure!  []

Odes to Honey:  http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/121Kaleidoscope4118.html

[Kevan Gelling]

Unless you are prepared to take part in this experiment you are accepting that vitamin D doesn't kill viruses.

Give it up BC!

Beside the glaring false dichotomy, it has never suggested that vitamin D can kill all viruses or that it could kill a particular virus with 100% certainty.  Only that vitamin D is part of the innate immune system, via the production of cathelicidin, and can 'cause the death of' some viruses.  And the comparison with bleach is nonsense.

Retort with science rather than the ridiculous, please!

[Kevan Gelling]

This post was originally an private email to Dr Chris.  It was highly speculative and I sent it to him because he is a living, breathing virologist.

Evidence has since been documented in this post that shows vitamin D is part of the innate immune system via the production of the anti-microbial peptides and that, in particular, cathelicidin has anti-viral properties.  There is also evidence that viruses may be the cause of some 'vitamin D deficient' morbidities - hypertension, MS, pancreatic cancer, prostate cancer.  Is it possible the reason for the correlation is that a sufficient vitamin D level can prevent viral infections and thus prevent the onset of said morbidities?

Dr Chris, what is your view?

[Bored chemist]

"Beside the glaring false dichotomy, it has never suggested that vitamin D can kill all viruses"
Please provide the details of any virus that it kills in the sort of experiment I described.
Even any virus where there's a reduction of the titre by a few log units would do.

My point is that it has not (at least here) been shown to kill any virus. It really is a viruscide in that same way that chocolate cake is.

[iko]

Allow me a cut&paste: Historical notes about vitamin D 'power'!  []

...even if you were a young lion, without proper sunlight exposure...you would be just dead.

Some recent discussion about ancient reports of cod liver oil use...

     


http://www.kipling.org.uk/pix/blandsutton.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/12/article-1094093-02C72154000005DC-139_468x297_popup.jpg

Rickets in Lion Cubs at the London Zoo in 1889: Some New Insights.

Chesney RW, Hedberg G.
aDepartment of Pediatrics, University of Tennessee Health Science Center, Memphis, Tennessee.

In 1889, when Dr John Bland-Sutton, a prominent surgeon in London, England, was consulted concerning fatal rickets in more than 20 successive litters of lion cubs at the London Zoo, he evaluated the role of diet relative to the development of rickets. He prescribed goat meat and bones and cod-liver oil to be added to the lean horse-meat diet of the cubs and their mothers. Rickets reversed, the cubs survived, and litters were reared successfully. In classic controlled studies conducted in puppies and young rats 3 decades later, the crucial role of calcium, phosphate, and vitamin D in both prevention and therapy of rickets was elucidated. Later studies led to the identification of the structural features of vitamin D. Although the Bland-Sutton interventional diet obviously provides calcium and phosphate from bones and vitamin D from cod-liver oil, other benefits of this diet were not initially recognized.
Chewing bones promotes tooth and gum health and removes bacteria-laden tartar.
Cod-liver oil also contains vitamin A, which is essential for the prevention of infection and for epithelial cell health. Taurine-conjugated bile salts are also necessary for the intestinal absorption of fat-soluble vitamins, including A and D. Moreover, unlike dogs and rats, all feline species are unable to synthesize taurine yet can only conjugate bile acids with taurine. This sulfur-containing beta-amino acid must be provided in the carnivorous diet of a large cat.
Taurine-conjugated bile salts were provided in the oil cold-pressed from cod liver.
The now famous Bland-Sutton "experiment of nature," namely, fatal rickets in lion cubs, was cured by the addition of minerals and vitamin D. However, gum health and the presence of taurine-conjugated bile salts undoubtedly permitted absorption of vitamin A and D, the latter promoting the cure of rickets.

Pediatrics. 2009 Apr 6. [Epub ahead of print]

[alanan]

During the last winter,when people all around me were contacting various strains of influenza I took 4,000 units of vitamin d per day. I did not have any flu vaccinations, and I went through the winter without catching a cold or Flu. That's good enough for me. alanan