[Simpleton (OP)]

Interesting related article out of India today.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/18514/homeopathy-can-prevent-cure-swine.html

[Bored chemist]

Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.


 

one woman has become pregnant as a result of the "remedy" messing with metabolism

...sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!

Let me get this stright; you are not aware of the hazardous effect of one of the most widely used herbal medicines yet you accuse me of ignorance or sticking my head in the sand.


Do you want to think a bit harder about that?

[Simpleton (OP)]

Ahh, the bored chemist, I missed your comments...

I thought a bit harder about it, really I did..................but it did not help.

I then checked Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John's_wort), funnily enough, they did not mention anything under "Adverse effects and drug interactions" about this ONE person on the pill having a reaction to St.Johns Wort, perhaps Wiki should also think a bit harder about that. 

I accept, I personally did not know this (recent) information (burn me at the stake why don't you)... and as I clearly stated in a previous posting, it is wrong and should be changed as soon as possible.

In my defence, I am not a herbalist, I am not a doctor (or a smart-arsed "bored chemist"), I am a Simpleton looking for a way to protect myself and family in a time when then world is searching beyond conventional medicine for complimentary solutions to a problem that conventional medicine has 3 solutions (one of which is a bit CRAP) -

There are at least 3 antivirals used; one (amantidine) is a bit crap

,one drug is almost virus resistant, and the final one, who knows it's fate...

Is it really a wonder there are people like me asking for HELP?

Actually, what is more of a wonder to me, is that there are people, like you, looking to criticise, ridicule and add worthless petty argument to such an important topic, in order to satisfy some apparent intrinsic desire to appear worthy and intelligent before peers and onlookers...get a grip mate, its not clever and you ain't gonna win any new friends.

I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.

Tut-tut.

[BenV]

Interesting related article out of India today.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/18514/homeopathy-can-prevent-cure-swine.html

I think you missed an enormous point in that article - It's even given in the headline

"Homeopathy can prevent, cure swine flu, say homeopaths"

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that homeopathy works any better than placebo.  Furthermore, there's no reasonable mechanism through which it can work.  I'd stick to the herbs if I were you.

As we may have mentioned before, if it works for an individual, great - but promoting a product like this (and the alternative health industry is an enormous profit making industry) is risky.  Should someone decide to opt for homeopathic treatment rather than conventional treatment, the homeopaths could have blood on their hands.

I understand entirely that you are talking about complementary therapies being used in conjunction with conventional therapies - the problem is that some people will assess risks based on newspaper articles like this one.

[BenV]

I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.

Tut-tut.

I don't think you've been reading what we've said.  It is highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for.  It's even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence.

How would you feel if your doctor prescribes you sugar pills?  By promoting untested therapies, that's precisely what they're doing.  Plus, the herbal concoctions also have unknown long term side effects.

What this boils down to is chemicals.  Doctors advise on the chemicals which have been tested and shown to work.  Herbal remedies contain a vast number of chemicals, some may help, some may do nothing, some may be harmful.

If you want to take complementary medicines, go ahead!  But why do you feel it's the medical industry's responsibility to advise others to do so?

[BenV]

Actually, what is more of a wonder to me, is that there are people, like you, looking to criticise, ridicule and add worthless petty argument to such an important topic, in order to satisfy some apparent intrinsic desire to appear worthy and intelligent before peers and onlookers...get a grip mate, its not clever and you ain't gonna win any new friends.

And finally, with my moderators hat on - please do not be so rude about other forum members.

[Simpleton (OP)]

Hi BenV,

Will add replies to your comments shortly.

Also, apologies for losing my temper with another forum member.
Will try to bite my tongue in the future and be less descriptive.

Regards
Simpleton

[Simpleton (OP)]

Have just seen a video (06.08.2009), courtesy of Reuters, discussing Chinese claims about herbal medicines in combination with conventional medicine. From a limited study, it is reported that the Chinese medicinal herb blends were as effective as Tamiflu and much cheaper!

http://info-wars.org/?p=4649

It seems to me, that resistance to complimentary medicine is not the same across the world. Why?
Either it works, has an effect, helps or it doesn't (as has been said before).
Are countries who are more in favour, hiding scientific information that could help other countries get things in better perspective? Have tests been done that others in other countries don't know about?

The Germans, with their licensed medicinal blends of herbs, the Indians using Homoeopathy, the Chinese using their combinations effectively... Who is right, who is wrong, and when can I start to confidently build my personal complementary first aid kit against the oncoming wave on Pandemic Influenza?

[Simpleton (OP)]

I think you missed an enormous point in that article - It's even given in the headline

"Homeopathy can prevent, cure swine flu, say homeopaths"

Yep, that is a good point. Well spotted!

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that homeopathy works any better than placebo.  Furthermore, there's no reasonable mechanism through which it can work.  I'd stick to the herbs if I were you.

I don't know much about how homoeopathy works and only recently included it in posts as a result of a comment made including it with herbalism. I am more personally more interested in herbs, roots, fruits and blends of such complementary medicines.

As we may have mentioned before, if it works for an individual, great - but promoting a product like this (and the alternative health industry is an enormous profit making industry) is risky.  Should someone decide to opt for homeopathic treatment rather than conventional treatment, the homeopaths could have blood on their hands.

I think the word 'enormous' should be referenced to the Phara industry...
I would also suggest that conventional medicine has its share of blood on its hands...

I understand entirely that you are talking about complementary therapies being used in conjunction with conventional therapies - the problem is that some people will assess risks based on newspaper articles like this one.

So, for the sake of 'some' people, we should not even consider these possible therapies, even in this dramatic escalating situation...? Perhaps we simply need to educate the 'some' people better.

Thanks for your positive approach to my comments, it is appreciated.

[Simpleton (OP)]

I don't think you've been reading what we've said.  It is highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for.  It's even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence.

Oh, I have been reading very carefully what has been said (from the WE?). I would agree it would be highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for, further-more I agree it is even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence. Shameful, in-fact. 

But there is evidence, there have been trials, testing has been observed for 1000's of years, benefits are known, patients have been helped, its not all rogues and villains on the other side. Civilisations differ around the world. they have different opinions to you (WE). Perhaps it is more of a case that here is not really the right place to be discussing such controversial subjects? I can understand that.

I seem to have landed in a big UK grey area. I want Relenza in my first aid kit, but I want some herbs, tinctures and fruits too. That is causing the problem (not for me personally), but for openly saying it here. I cannot really imagine that someone on this forum is going to say... I  would advise, this, this, this and this from the complementary medicine range... From the onset take this in conjunction with this, monitor this, after day 2, increase to this and reduce this... etc. etc. Bit frustrating, but at the same time I am learning a lot, so it has it's benefits, I hope for others too.

How would you feel if your doctor prescribes you sugar pills?  By promoting untested therapies, that's precisely what they're doing.  Plus, the herbal concoctions also have unknown long term side effects.

Aside, My daughter has received, when ill, sugar pills with drops of medicine from her local doctor (in Germany) since being here. (Globuli; http://www.globuli.de/). Conventional medicine's long term side effects are also renowned! But it's another long story!

What this boils down to is chemicals.  Doctors advise on the chemicals which have been tested and shown to work.  Herbal remedies contain a vast number of chemicals, some may help, some may do nothing, some may be harmful.

This makes sense. Thanks.
Only that some herbal remedies, without specific scientific testing, or testing that does not comply to western medicine, or unknown testing, do work in practice. As a result the grey area of medicine exists.

If you want to take complementary medicines, go ahead!  But why do you feel it's the medical industry's responsibility to advise others to do so?

Normally, I would not stick my neck out so far, really, but if the current flu situation follows any of its historical ancestors, then I feel it is the medical industries responsibility to merge its hard line approach and help in the quest to support immune systems before it becomes a real disaster.  AND... what better opportunity to test out a variety of approaches on a world wide population in the midst of a pandemic; its like, the test of all tests.

[Simpleton (OP)]

Final thought for today, as I do have to get on...

The other possibility is... have the vaccine (if offered and available), then you don't even get the flu in the first place! Great. Or not.

Question: Should I take the planned new H1N1 vaccine, should I advise my family to take it?

Perhaps it is a good question for a poll?  My last poll was quite unsuccessful, but will perhaps try again.

[Bored chemist]

Simpleton,
you say " I want Relenza in my first aid kit, but I want some herbs, tinctures and fruits too".
Why?
Do you have any evidence that any of them will help?
Which ones will you choose and on what basis would you chose them?
If it's not on the basis of empirical evidence then your thoughts on the matter are unscientific. If you repeatedly post unscientific claptrap on a science forum you can expect to be ridiculed.

If you also choose to insult the people who point out the problems with your ideas then, to say the least, it hardly supports your case.

[Simpleton (OP)]

Hi, thanks for the comment.

Simpleton,
you say " I want Relenza in my first aid kit, but I want some herbs, tinctures and fruits too".
Why?

Relenza, as I fear that Tamiflu will soon become ineffective, leaving only side effects.

Do you have any evidence that any of them will help?

Yes. Historically and traditional, when not scientifically (from other countries' methods and practices).
It would be interesting, for example, to here from some German, Chinese or Australian Medicinal Herbalists on the subject.

Which ones will you choose and on what basis would you chose them?

Great question.  That was, in essence my original question in the first post... that is what I am hoping to qualify on this journey... ahh, a ray of light.

If it's not on the basis of empirical evidence then your thoughts on the matter are unscientific. If you repeatedly post unscientific claptrap on a science forum you can expect to be ridiculed.

1. Perhaps.
2. My shoulders are broad, and anyway I'm getting into the swing of it now. Constructive criticism is also positive.

If you also choose to insult the people who point out the problems with your ideas then, to say the least, it hardly supports your case.

I did apologise to BenV, and I would also like to apologise to you. Uncalled for...Sorry...
Please be assured, I do value your opinion and will try to behave better in the future.

My apology refers to this...

Actually, what is more of a wonder to me, is that there are people, like you, looking to criticise, ridicule and add worthless petty argument to such an important topic, in order to satisfy some apparent intrinsic desire to appear worthy and intelligent before peers and onlookers...get a grip mate, its not clever and you ain't gonna win any new friends.

[Variola]

The other possibility is... have the vaccine (if offered and available), then you don't even get the flu in the first place! Great. Or not.

The other possibility is... have the vaccine (if offered and available), then you don't even get the flu in the first place! Great. Or not.

?

Of course you get the 'flu, thats how vaccines work.
What you don't get is the full blown disease.

I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.

What exactly do you expect the medical community to do? Doctors are not Gods ( although some think they are!)
This is what irks me about people, they expect conventional, actually lets drop the word conventional, medicine to be able to cure something hey presto.
What do you think it is, magic?? (Rhet)
 If you go to the doctor with an ailment, you expect pills creams or potions to put it right, and if you dont get anything, people complain. Well tough titty. Medicine does not have all the answers, in fact when it comes to the human body we don't know anywhere near enough. The centuries of research into the biology of the body, and the distance we have come so far is proof of how beautifully complex it really is.
Personally I am always in awe of how stripped down and lean viruses are, and how they sneak in and out of cells, performing a coup de'tat on the way. Our immune system is well-honed to beat this, but Influenza A doesn't give in without a fight! The result being we either feel really crap for a while, or if unlucky we develop a complication and die.
Well, that is life, That is what happens in life and as yet we don't have an amazing wonder drug to combat it. We have the anti-virals, and we have the anti-microbials to combat any secondary infections,and the physiological support, but that really is about it.
The sooner people realise that the better and stop expecting medicine to have the answers for everything and criticise when it doesn't.

[Simpleton (OP)]

Thanks for the reply.

The other possibility is... have the vaccine (if offered and available), then you don't even get the flu in the first place! Great. Or not.

?

Of course you get the 'flu, thats how vaccines work.
What you don't get is the full blown disease.

I think I should have written "you don't even get the FULL BLOWN flu, OR DIE in the first place... Better?
Actually, vaccines are made using viruses that are either dead or severely damaged so that they can not reproduce. (Wiki).

I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.

What exactly do you expect the medical community to do? Doctors are not Gods ( although some think they are!)

Doctors are exceptional individuals, no doubt. They dedicate their lives to helping others. What worthier cause can a human being undertake? However, Doctors, from all communities, to some extent, are constricted to where in the world they studied, what they studied, their morals and to some degree their beliefs and religion persuasion. Doctors have existed since...who knows, since mankind had illness. What I expect the medical community to do, from every aspect of its core, is to continue in the original pursuit, that being, to help others and to improve the health of humankind.

I believe in humankind's kindness and unconditional love for each other and their surroundings; even if sometimes, as in today's modern world, it doesn't always appear that way. I think that when things get tough, really tough, humans rally around each other in support. To some extent, perhaps I am a ideologist, that may be true, but I learn so much by provoking thought in others, to question what is engraved in stone, it adds to a bigger picture.

"The whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts." 1+1=3. 

Lets suppose that the first "1" is conventional medicine. The second "1" is complementary... together it produces more worth than when working alone.

After that little aside, and returning to the point, I think the time is arriving, swiftly, when much more interaction and cooperation between various disciplines of medicine should be sought.

This is what irks me about people, they expect conventional, actually lets drop the word conventional, medicine to be able to cure something hey presto.

Hey Presto?  This is the 4th outbreak of this kind this century! Mankind will be soon wandering around on Mars but we have still no great plan to deal with this common pesky virus that keeps appearing every 30 or 40 years! Did we just hope it would not turn up again? What have we learned about this situation in the past 100 years. Which disciplines of medicine throughout history proved that their methods actually worked against it, lets hear what they have to say, lets work together testing various disciplines for the common good of all. Throw away attachments to core beliefs from inflexible disciplines and let the mind free for a moment. I am not talking about a handful of hippies preaching about the wonders of oak bark, I am referring to world medicinal belief systems. How different is the Chinese medical approach to that of the western medicine, in comparison to the Indian and African, not to forget South American. Each community has doctors, people who are dedicated to helping others. It's about time some of the walls came down.

What do you think it is, magic?? (Rhet)

No, it's nature and it is quite magical.

If you go to the doctor with an ailment, you expect pills creams or potions to put it right, and if you dont get anything, people complain. Well tough titty.

That's a bit hard...we do get something, Tamiflu and Relenza, Asprin, hand wash spray etc. And they have been helping, thank god!

Medicine does not have all the answers,

(1+1=3), Certainly not one discipline alone...

in fact when it comes to the human body we don't know anywhere near enough. The centuries of research into the biology of the body, and the distance we have come so far is proof of how beautifully complex it really is.

Really like that and so very true.

Personally I am always in awe of how stripped down and lean viruses are, and how they sneak in and out of cells, performing a coup de'tat on the way. Our immune system is well-honed to beat this, but Influenza A doesn't give in without a fight!

Totally agree, a wonder. But would actually like to remain in awe of them a bit longer...I am not that in awe! That's why I am fighting...here now, fighting with words to gather opinions to get conversation started to speed up the process a little bit.

The result being we either feel really crap for a while, or if unlucky we develop a complication and die.

Agree, but why limit yourself to one part of the whole especially in times of a world CRISIS, that I don't really understand.

Well, that is life, That is what happens in life and as yet we don't have an amazing wonder drug to combat it. We have the anti-virals, and we have the anti-microbials to combat any secondary infections,and the physiological support, but that really is about it. The sooner people realise that the better and stop expecting medicine to have the answers for everything and criticise when it doesn't.

Perhaps it already exists your "wonder drug" (cure), for sure it already exists, why wouldn't it. Is it not our challenge to find out how to overcome this problem, together? We will, you know, its just a question of when and how.

[Variola]

I think I should have written "you don't even get the FULL BLOWN flu, OR DIE in the first place... Better?
Actually, vaccines are made using viruses that are either dead or severely damaged so that they can not reproduce. (Wiki).

Ahh I did wonder what you meant...hence the
Thanks for the wiki quote but I am reasonably well versed with vaccines.

After that little aside, and returning to the point, I think the time is arriving, swiftly, when much more interaction and cooperation between various disciplines of medicine should be sought.

Which interactions as with whom?? Medicine, in my definition does not include complementary therapies.

For complementary therapies to be taken as a useful part of medicine, then some regulation, order and scientific evidence needs to be provided. It has to go under the same stringent regulation that medicine does.

Hey Presto?  This is the 4th outbreak of this kind this century! Mankind will be soon wandering around on Mars but we have still no great plan to deal with this common pesky virus that keeps appearing every 30 or 40 years! Did we just hope it would not turn up again?

Actually Influenza A does turn up more commonly than that, it doesn't just turn up whenever it feels like it. It is usually present in some form in the human/porcine population. Its only when it mutates and shows signs of being more pathogenic that we go into overdrive. We always knew it would turn up again, in fact ever since 1918 we have been on the verge of neurotic waiting,you only have to look back at governmental behavior each time a 'new' 'flu virus has appeared.




 

What have we learned about this situation in the past 100 years. Which disciplines of medicine throughout history proved that their methods actually worked against it, lets hear what they have to say, lets work together testing various disciplines for the common good of all.

That will be microbiology and biochemistry then.( big blanket encompassing lots of different discliplines)
 Yes, it does work, we have anti-virals, they do work. Just not as well as we would like them to against this particular virus. That doesn't mean they don't work and they should not have been developed.
If you are talking about complementary therapies, we are still left with lack of ANY evidence that they do work on viruses.


 

Throw away attachments to core beliefs from inflexible disciplines and let the mind free for a moment. I am not talking about a handful of hippies preaching about the wonders of oak bark, I am referring to world medicinal belief systems. How different is the Chinese medical approach to that of the western medicine, in comparison to the Indian and African, not to forget South American. Each community has doctors, people who are dedicated to helping others. It's about time some of the walls came down.

It really isn't about entrenched beliefs, not these days. It is still about lack of scientific evidence, something duplicable, testable, not built on anecdotal evidence. its also about the lack of regulation too. If a handful of hippies could show me standard scientific evidence that oak bark had medicinal properties, I would embrace them.

Totally agree, a wonder. But would actually like to remain in awe of them a bit longer...I am not that in awe! That's why I am fighting...here now, fighting with words to gather opinions to get conversation started to speed up the process a little bit.

I will always remain in awe of them, its a healthy awe that keeps me interested, keeps me keen and keeps me thinking about them. All essential for what I want to do in life.
With respect, all you have done so far is show how different plants/herbs *might* be of use, and how different complementary therapies may use them.
Its boring, and I harp on about it, but so far no science.

Perhaps it already exists your "wonder drug" (cure), for sure it already exists, why wouldn't it. Is it not our challenge to find out how to overcome this problem, together? We will, you know, its just a question of when and how.

It may well do. But like medicine before, it will hopefully be discovered and then be developed tried and tested. It wont be a matter of nipping down to the local herbalist and asking what he recommends.
If you want science to take something seriously, then you have to speak its language.

[Bored chemist]

"
"The whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts." 1+1=3. 

Lets suppose that the first "1" is conventional medicine. The second "1" is complementary... together it produces more worth than when working alone.
"
this is a science forum so you should realise that if you can't support that you should withdraw it.

anyway, look back to the original question; the title of the thread.
What complementary remedies are there for H1N1.
Well there are lots.
For example I might tell you that wearing your socks inside-out will stop you getting it.
I could make up lots more- or I could look up the ones that others have made up.

What would I gain from this?
There are two sorts of remedies- the ones that work and the ones that don't. The ones that don't get called alternative or complimentary.
Since they don't work; who cares what they are?

Do you realise that "modern" herbalists still base their work on things like
"Yarrow was a plant of Venus (this was odd, because most devil's herbs were plants of Saturn) and, as such, was frequently consulted where love matters were concerned. "
and
"Culpepper tells us that:
'Mercury has the dominion of this plant, and therefore to be sure it strengthens the brain.... It stays the hiccough, being boiled in wine, and but smelled unto being tied in a cloth. The seed is of more use than the leaves, and more effectual to digest raw and vicious humours, and is used in medicines that serve to expel wind, and the pains proceeding therefrom...."


Do you really think that such trash based on astrology is worth reading, never mind using as the basis of medicine?

There are no doubt real medical uses for some herbs; I have mentioned a few.
There are also real side effects associated with herbs. No shock there- the difference between a drug and a poison is just the dose.
The problem is that there's a lot of rubbish talked about herbs without any basis in fact; they just claim "the ancients said it was right!".
Well the ancients didn't have a clue about how the body worked or about pharmacology. Most of them thought the Earth was the centre of the universe and that the stars were painted onto glass spheres.
Are they a reliable source?

Somehow I doubt many people reading this will think so.

[Andrew K Fletcher]

Tamiflu is in the news today. Apparently it is causing more harm than the little if any good it is alleged to do.


From Tamiflu.com:     *  The #1 doctor-prescribed flu medicine for flu treatment*
    * Approved for adults and children aged 1 year and older
    * Must be taken within 12 to 48 hours from the first appearance of flu symptoms

From the National News:
Swine flu: Tamiflu 'reduces flu symptoms by just half a day'
Tamiflu reduces the length of flu symptoms by an average of only half a day, according to a new study.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/10/swine-flu-drugs-under-12s
Don't give swine flu drugs to under-12s, says study

[Simpleton (OP)]

Currently on holiday with limited internet access, will be picking up on this thread again soon...

[Bored chemist]

No need to cut your holiday short to discuss this.
There's nothing new about the idea that you can put up with drugs that have more side effects if you are treating a more serious disease.
It turns out that swine flu is a bit of a wash-out so, for some groups of people, it might not be worth taking tamiflu. Nobody could have known that until the epidemic struck. The planning was based on a "worst case " idea and this outbreak is a long way from that.

Of course, exactly the same would be true for a herbal remedy.

Enjoy your holiday.