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  4. What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?

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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #60 on: 21/08/2009 16:23:52 »
Complementary First Aid Kit for H1N1 (BETA)



My first aid kit for the virus (H1N1) is currently looking like this...I still have quite some research to do, especially in relation to compatibility with other items on the list and levels of dosage.  Any comments/help would be appreciated.

@Bored Chemist...
Quote
It turns out that swine flu is a bit of a wash-out

I DO hope that you are right, especially as the vaccine in Germany is being readied for dispatch in a number of weeks, the first mass vaccination for quite some time, actually 50 years, 50 million people...  http://english.cctv.com/program/worldwidewatch/20090820/111103.shtml

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Complementary First Aid Kit for H1N1 (BETA)

-Schüssler Salts (3,4,8,11) - http://www.schuesslersalts.com/
-Influcid Tablets - Homeopothy. More Info
-Swedish Bitters - Maria Treben
-Fern-leaved Biscuit-root (Lomatium dissectum) - Root if Possible and/or tincture
-White Tea (as part of fluid intake)
-Vitamin C - Toxic level (LD50), 11.9 grams per kilogram of body weight when taken orally. 6 grams of ascorbic acid were given to 29 infants, 93 children of preschool and school age, and 20 adults for more than 1400 days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C
-Black Elder berries
-Goji berries
-Sodium chlorite/MMS - More research
-Chorine dioxide - More research
-Vitamin D
-Garlic
-Relenza
-Tylenol and ibuprofen - more research
-Symmetrel & Flumadine - more research

Interesting Links:

Child Fever - http://healthmad.com/home-health/how-to-bring-a-fever-down-naturally/

Reduce Fever - http://healthmad.com/home-health/how-to-reduce-a-fever/

Notes:

Therefore, aspirin-containing remedies should not be given to children under 15 except on the advice of a doctor.

There are, however, a number of specific anti-influenza agents available on prescription. These include amantadine (Symmetrel) and rimantadine (Flumadine) which work by preventing the virus from shedding its coat inside cells, stopping it from multiplying. These agents can be used to protect at-risk individuals from infections, and are also able to offer limited benefit to sufferers if started within 48 hours of infection. They are, however, only active against influenza A.

It looks like increasing vitamin D intake and adding beta glucan supplements to your diet should decrease your chances of catching any flu. If you do get sick a combination of a COX-2 inhibitor in combination with a H1 Blocker: Benadryl, Claritin or Zyrtec and a H2 Blocker: Tagamet (Cimetidine), Zantac (Ranitidine), or Pepcid (Famotadine) should effectively stop the cytokine storm and the resulting lung damage. Statin drugs seem to stop the cytokine storm also, but I'm uncertain of their mechanism.

Research by; © 2009 Simpleton.
« Last Edit: 22/08/2009 11:09:43 by Simpleton »
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Offline Variola

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #61 on: 21/08/2009 17:08:22 »
Quote
beta glucan supplements to your diet should decrease your chances of catching any flu.

The affects of beta glucan in its ability to boost the immune system is still questionable.

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If you do get sick a combination of a COX-2 inhibitor in combination with a H1 Blocker: Benadryl, Claritin or Zyrtec and a H2 Blocker: Tagamet (Cimetidine), Zantac (Ranitidine), or Pepcid (Famotadine) should effectively stop the cytokine storm and the resulting lung damage. Statin drugs seem to stop the cytokine storm also, but I'm uncertain of their mechanism.

So Ibuprofen and a good indigestion remedy?! (not for asthmatics obviously)
Statins would have too many negative side affects to warrant use.


However its still interesting research Simpleton.


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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #62 on: 21/08/2009 17:19:29 »
Thank you for your reply, really appreciated.

Will continue work developing each item on the list. As always I will try to remain as impartial as possible.
Thanks for the support.

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The affects of beta glucan in its ability to boost the immune system is still questionable.
Need to do more research...agreed.

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So Ibuprofen and a good indigestion remedy?! (not for asthmatics obviously)
Which is not good for Asthmatics?

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indigestion remedy
Pineapple juice blended with peppermint tea and a small quantity of cinnamon could be a very good remedy for indigestion.

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Statins would have too many negative side affects to warrant use.
Need to do more research...agreed.
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Offline rosy

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #63 on: 21/08/2009 17:51:02 »
Ibuprofen!
Some asthmatics react badly to ibuprofen, asprin or both.

In general, Simpleton, whilst what you're trying to do is in some respects admirable I never the less find it a bit worrying. If something has a curative/protective effect it follows that that effect must be the result of a physiological effect on the body. Anything with effects has side-effects, and whilst deciding to eat a bit more fruit and veg, or even add a little cinnamon to your morning toast, isn't likely to hurt anyone (fruit, veg and cinnamon being things routinely consumed by people in day to day life and so unlikely to cause any very significant negative effect, or it would have been noticed already), I'd want to ask (ideally) an immunologist some pretty searching questions about the likely effects of dosing myself up on anti-histamines before I did so.

I am not entirely comfortable with the idea that someone who doesn't know that ibuprofen is a drug people with asthma are advised to take only under medical advice* is in effect using this forum to publish a list of drugs with the suggestion that people should take them if they contract 'flu, because however much you emphasise that you are only looking for information the above list does look like a suggestion to others.

* No offence meant here... I didn't know about this until a couple of years ago.
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Offline Variola

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #64 on: 21/08/2009 18:11:19 »
Quote
Which is not good for Asthmatics?

As Rosy has pointed out, Ibuprofen, which is one of the most common Cox 2 inhibitors is not good for asthmatics due to it increasing the action/number of leukotrienes. Not all asthmatics are affected by it, I know I am sensitive as I already take a leukotrine blocker.
Zantac (ranatidine) is a popular indigestion remedy.
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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #65 on: 21/08/2009 20:08:34 »
Quote from: rosy on 21/08/2009 17:51:02
Ibuprofen!
Some asthmatics react badly to ibuprofen, asprin or both.

In general, Simpleton, whilst what you're trying to do is in some respects admirable I never the less find it a bit worrying. If something has a curative/protective effect it follows that that effect must be the result of a physiological effect on the body. Anything with effects has side-effects, and whilst deciding to eat a bit more fruit and veg, or even add a little cinnamon to your morning toast, isn't likely to hurt anyone (fruit, veg and cinnamon being things routinely consumed by people in day to day life and so unlikely to cause any very significant negative effect, or it would have been noticed already), I'd want to ask (ideally) an immunologist some pretty searching questions about the likely effects of dosing myself up on anti-histamines before I did so.

I am not entirely comfortable with the idea that someone who doesn't know that ibuprofen is a drug people with asthma are advised to take only under medical advice* is in effect using this forum to publish a list of drugs with the suggestion that people should take them if they contract 'flu, because however much you emphasise that you are only looking for information the above list does look like a suggestion to others.

* No offence meant here... I didn't know about this until a couple of years ago.

@rosy

Thank you for your comments, especially the reaction to Ibuprofen. I am not a doctor or chemist or pharmaceutical specialist and I did not know of that reaction which is great reason to have this forum, as now I do know, as do many others. However, I would have most likely found it out from researching it - and as I do not suffer from this illness it would however not affect me personally.

My emphasis in this research is targeted for the five to seven days from the onset of fever, those days in which, should the virus become more virulent, could become life threatening. If my thinking is correct and I should survive those 5-7 days my own amazing body will produce the anti-bodies ensuring I never get that strain again. Subsequent strains will pose a new challenge, as would the first. That being the case, my first aid kit would be updated from experience and put in the cupboard until the next time it was needed, I would return to my normal balanced diet.

Therefore, in essence, I'm searching for things, that in an ordered systematic way, can compliment useful conventional medicine throughout that five to seven days period.

I do personally plan to take into account (through research), as I hope others do, the background medical information for my individual medical circumstances in comparison to the list I have published. However, it may be difficult to be 100% accurate without personally trialling unless others have experience that can be shared. My first aid kit list is perhaps a point of reference, that could be used to spark further discussion or research or indeed disqualification (for some individuals).

As the medical community offers me only the advice; stay in bed, take relenza or tamiflu (becoming less effective), take lots of liquids and rest, I felt it necessary to embark on this research. Publishing to this forum is done with integrity and honesty. I do not have all the answers and  hope that far more qualified individuals can help me and others to improve the chances during those 5-7 days.

The list is still in "Beta" which means it still needs work.

I am not entirely comfortable with the idea and I am also personally quite worried about publishing medical thoughts to a public forum, but as no-one else seems to be doing it, I thought I might as well take the risk especially, as ethically, my intentions are good, with no product to sell and no acclaim waiting on the other side. I also thought 'perhaps it is better than doing nothing', in the hope that along the way a more defined, refined picture could be computed collectively.

Sometimes I think, 'If I do it I am damned, if I don't do it I am damned. 
Thanks for taking the time to pick up on the point of Ibuprofen.


Quote
Quote
Which is not good for Asthmatics?

As Rosy has pointed out, Ibuprofen, which is one of the most common Cox 2 inhibitors is not good for asthmatics due to it increasing the action/number of leukotrienes. Not all asthmatics are affected by it, I know I am sensitive as I already take a leukotrine blocker.
Zantac (ranatidine) is a popular indigestion remedy.

Thanks Variola, will look into Zantac (ranatidine).
« Last Edit: 21/08/2009 20:11:27 by Simpleton »
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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #66 on: 21/08/2009 21:46:53 »
Good news on vaccine...

So far, "no red flags" seen in H1N1 vaccine
http://ow.ly/15LVBC (Reuters)

Not sure about the safety...

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4588419,00.html (Deutsche Welle)
"...Study says 'vaccinate children' 

New research has suggested that the best way to protect against the spread of the virus was to vaccinate school-age children and their parents. Unlike most strains of flu, which are usually most dangerous to older adults, (A)H1N1 targets younger people, according to a report published in the journal Science on Thursday.

The report recommends making children the top priority because they are the influenza's prime transmitters and their parents are the virus' bridge to the rest of the community. Inoculating spreaders, the report contends, would create a 'cocoon' around the people most at risk..."
« Last Edit: 21/08/2009 22:06:46 by Simpleton »
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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #67 on: 22/08/2009 13:42:46 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/08/2009 19:02:25

Quote
Quote
"The whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts." 1+1=3. 

Lets suppose that the first "1" is conventional medicine. The second "1" is complementary... together it produces more worth than when working alone."

this is a science forum so you should realise that if you can't support that you should withdraw it.

Finally sitting comfortably and able to concentrate on your last unanswered posting.

The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge. How do we define science? According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice,". How can we then define homoeopathy, Chinese herbalism, acupuncture et al? Are they not a form of knowledge/science, indeed knowledge attained through study or practice?

Quote
anyway, look back to the original question; the title of the thread.
What complementary remedies are there for H1N1.
Well there are lots.
For example I might tell you that
Quote
wearing your socks inside-out
will stop you getting it.
I could make up lots more- or I could look up the ones that others have made up.

 [:o)] Comparing complementary medicine to wearing your socks inside out...  [;D]

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What would I gain from this?
There are two sorts of remedies- the ones that work and the ones that don't. The ones that don't get called alternative or complimentary.
Since they don't work; who cares what they are?

 [::)] Homoeopathy, Chinese herbalism, acupuncture et al, they don't work?? Stop it is starting to hurt now...  [:0]

Quote
Do you realise that "modern" herbalists still base their work on things like
"Yarrow was a plant of Venus (this was odd, because most devil's herbs were plants of Saturn) and, as such, was frequently consulted where love matters were concerned. "
and
"Culpepper tells us that:
'Mercury has the dominion of this plant, and therefore to be sure it strengthens the brain.... It stays the hiccough, being boiled in wine, and but smelled unto being tied in a cloth. The seed is of more use than the leaves, and more effectual to digest raw and vicious humours, and is used in medicines that serve to expel wind, and the pains proceeding therefrom...."

Do you really think that such trash based on astrology is worth reading, never mind using as the basis of medicine?

Yarrow: [???] See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achillea_millefolium if you are interested in some of the uses of Yarrow. Interestingly you forgot to mention that yarrow is used by herbalists (not sure if they are modern or not) "Today, yarrow is valued mainly for its action in colds and influenza". Hey Wow, you have potentially added a new line of research for my list. Thanks.  [:X]

Did I ever mention astrology? Erm, no, but as you did...the concept seems reasonable to me...

Quote
Botanical Astrology
The connection between the celestial skies above and the growth cycles of plants and vegetation below has long been understood and honored through planting and harvesting rituals and documented by Farmer’s Almanacs. A lesser known fact is that the signs and planets of the zodiac are linked to specific herbs, flowers, plants and trees and have been used therapeutically throughout the ages. Below is an at-a-glance list originated by noted 20th century astrologer Alan Leo. Herbs are classified according to planetary influences as follows:  http://www.celestiallivingarts.com/astro_herbs.html

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There are no doubt real medical uses for some herbs; I have mentioned a few.
Great! I could mention many many more...

Quote
There are also real side effects associated with herbs.
And western medicines...

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No shock there- the difference between a drug and a poison is just the dose.
In many cases, I agree.

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The problem is that there's a lot of rubbish talked about herbs without any basis in fact; they just claim "the ancients said it was right!".
Basis in fact? You mean knowledge or science...perhaps there is more grey in this than just your black/white approach...

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Well the ancients didn't have a clue about how the body worked or about pharmacology.
[::)] Like the Egyptians, The Mayas, The Greeks, The Romans, all clueless...  [???]

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Most of them thought the Earth was the centre of the universe and that the stars were painted onto glass spheres.
Are they a reliable source?
They our ancestors.

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Somehow I doubt many people reading this will think so.
Perhaps you should start a poll...

"Did the ancients really have no clue about how the body worked?" 1) Yes or 2) No or 3) What a silly question...
My answer would have to be No.3.

PS. Thanks for the Yarrow tip...
« Last Edit: 22/08/2009 13:44:19 by Simpleton »
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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #68 on: 22/08/2009 16:32:42 »
Google Knol is a great source of information for H1N1
http://knol.google.com/k/plos/plos-currents-influenza/28qm4w0q65e4w/1#

My first Knol relates to this posting
http://bit.ly/oJjCp
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Offline Bored chemist

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #69 on: 22/08/2009 17:15:50 »
"Homoeopathy, Chinese herbalism, acupuncture et al, they don't work?? Stop it is starting to hurt now...  "

The studies of homeopathy show that it doesn't work.
While some plants in the Chinese herbal  have been shown to be beneficial (most recently the anti malarial Artemesinin, most of it is as pointless as the "mercury rules this plant" kind of nonsense.

Acupuncture doesn't compare favourably to a suitable placebo.
I take it that when you said "Stop it is starting to hurt now" you were referring to the fact that the truth sometimes hurts.

"Did I ever mention astrology? Erm, no, but as you did...the concept seems reasonable to me..."
No, you didn't mention it, but it is a part of the "rules" of the herbalism that you are so keen on.
If it seems reasonable to you could you please provide a reason why a bunch of unconnected stars zillions of miles away might have any effect on me as a consequence of the date I was born?
If you can't think of a mechanism for that then you ought not find it reasonable- yet you do. What are you doing on a scientific site?

"Did the ancients really have no clue about how the body worked?" 1) Yes or 2) No or 3) What a silly question...
My answer would have to be No.3."
Indeed it's a silly question.
They didn't understand what the heart was for- the circulation of the blood wasn't properly understood until the 17th cent.
They thought that the brain was a device for cooling the blood.
They thought that illness was due to a lack of balance between the 4 humours.

All absolute tosh. It's ridiculous to start a poll where the answer is so clear already.
« Last Edit: 22/08/2009 17:17:24 by Bored chemist »
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Offline Variola

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #70 on: 22/08/2009 17:27:54 »
This seems an opportune time to post this link

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/331/

Thanks to Dentstudent for the link.
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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #71 on: 24/08/2009 17:06:24 »
1 in 2 Doctors will not take the H1N1 vaccine. What message does that send to the masses...

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=35&storycode=4123491&c=1
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Offline BenV

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #72 on: 24/08/2009 18:30:37 »
It sends a very poor message, especially as the article doesn't mention why they wouldn't have the vaccine.  This means we can assume that they don't trust it, but we can also assume that they consider themselves healthy and would prefer to see the vaccine going to at risk groups.  Sadly, there's so little information there that we can think whatever we like...
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Offline Bored chemist

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #73 on: 24/08/2009 19:37:52 »
I wonder if 1 in 2 doctors have already had the virus.
It seems plausible that a large fraction of them have.
If half of them think they have been exposed already then they would be fools to take, even the smallest risk, and also they would be seen as "greedy" to take it if they don't need it.


BTW, you seem not to hae spotted this question in my last post
"If it seems reasonable to you could you please provide a reason why a bunch of unconnected stars zillions of miles away might have any effect on me as a consequence of the date I was born?"
Please answer it.
Oh, Also, I just wondered; do you plan to set up the poll you suggested earlier?
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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #74 on: 29/08/2009 10:29:40 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 24/08/2009 19:37:52
I wonder if 1 in 2 doctors have already had the virus.
It seems plausible that a large fraction of them have.
If half of them think they have been exposed already then they would be fools to take, even the smallest risk, and also they would be seen as "greedy" to take it if they don't need it.

Good point. Not sure about the reliability of the last posting either, just shocked me, the concept that a proportion of conventional doctors don't want their own medicine, apologies, it is good that people check and double check. A better post was written by the Daily Mail.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208716/Half-GPs-refuse-swine-flu-vaccine-testing-fears.html.

 

Quote
BTW, you seem not to hae spotted this question in my last post
"If it seems reasonable to you could you please provide a reason why a bunch of unconnected stars zillions of miles away might have any effect on me as a consequence of the date I was born?"
Please answer it.
Oh, Also, I just wondered; do you plan to set up the poll you suggested earlier?

Not an astrologer or a religious guru or a palm reader, in fact, as you now know, I am a Simpleton. Even from this stand point it would be difficult to ignore that the stars, planets and moons exist. A simple effect is how the moon effects people, plants, oceans every month, more complex would be the Pyramids around the world. I would also find it hard to accept that they have no effect upon us, can I prove it? Nope. Do I understand it all? Nope. Do I need to understand everything in order to accept it? Nope. Some things cannot be 100% scientifically explained and put into neat boxes (not yet!), I guess this must be awfully frustrating for some people.

All I can say is that my instinct leads me to the conclusion that the stars, the planets, the constellations et al somehow effect each and everyone of us. It could also be that they don't effect us at all, not one tiny little bit, but that is not my instinct.

What do you think about recent media reports that H1N1 may be showing signs of more virulence and is becoming more resistant to Tamiflu?

PS. No new polls planned at present.
Trying to find more time to continue research (for what its worth).

Have a nice weekend.


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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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« Reply #75 on: 29/08/2009 10:32:19 »
Quote from: BenV on 24/08/2009 18:30:37
It sends a very poor message, especially as the article doesn't mention why they wouldn't have the vaccine.  This means we can assume that they don't trust it, but we can also assume that they consider themselves healthy and would prefer to see the vaccine going to at risk groups.  Sadly, there's so little information there that we can think whatever we like...

Thanks for the comment Ben. Agree, was quite a loose article. Will think twice in the future about posting dodgy articles with little of no information... Daily mail wrote a better piece, see posting above.
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« Reply #76 on: 10/09/2009 08:40:04 »
Preparing my small swedish bitters using the recipe from Maria Treben.
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Offline Bored chemist

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #77 on: 10/09/2009 19:48:37 »
"All I can say is that my instinct leads me to the conclusion that the stars, the planets, the constellations et al somehow effect each and everyone of us. "
I didn't ask for another assertion of your opinion; I asked for a reason for it.
Do you, for example, have any plausible mechanism?
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Offline Simpleton (OP)

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« Reply #78 on: 16/09/2009 22:25:00 »
As this posting is actually to do with complimentery medicine and Influenza (H1N1) I really cant see the point of continuing this odd line of agressive questioning about stars and planets.

In a few weeks I will have time to continue my initial research and will be developing upon my first aid kit. For those interested I am currently taking swedish bitters (mornings before breakfast, 2 teasp), as a preventative measure.



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« Reply #79 on: 17/09/2009 18:38:42 »
" I really cant see the point of continuing this odd line of agressive questioning about stars and planets."

If you really can't see it then perhaps you need to read the thread again.
It's because a lot of the complimentary medicine is based on total hogwash like astrology.

You might want to look back to the bit where I said "Do you realise that "modern" herbalists still base their work on things like
"Yarrow was a plant of Venus (this was odd, because most devil's herbs were plants of Saturn) and, as such, was frequently consulted where love matters were concerned. "
and
"Culpepper tells us that:
'Mercury has the dominion of this plant, and therefore to be sure it strengthens the brain.... It stays the hiccough, being boiled in wine, and but smelled unto being tied in a cloth. The seed is of more use than the leaves, and more effectual to digest raw and vicious humours, and is used in medicines that serve to expel wind, and the pains proceeding therefrom...."


Do you really think that such trash based on astrology is worth reading, never mind using as the basis of medicine?"

Incidentally when you say "For those interested I am currently taking swedish bitters (mornings before breakfast, 2 teasp), as a preventative measure."
I trust you mean that you are preventing the impoverishment of the manufacturer.
There's no real evidence it will prevent anything else.

(Just for reference; evidence is not the plural of anecdote)
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