[NN]

Photons attract other photons gravitationally. This is not something I just made up. It is true in the Lorentz relativity predictions; it is true in the theory of special theory of relativity; it is true in the General Theory of Relativity; it is true in Quantum Theory, and it is true in Quantum Electrodynamics theory.

So it is part of classical theories and it is a part of modern theories. Things would be very troubling if this were not so. We know, for example, that photons trapped in a mirrored box add massiveness to the box. The extra mass must have a corresponding increase in gravity. If it did not, the maths would be broken.

We can take it even further. Space debris must absorb light. When it does, it becomes more massive according to all currently accepted theories. This additional mass carries with it additional gravitational attraction.

Do photons have mass? And what's the mass of one photon? Please, support your possible argument wiht serious references. Thank you.

[Gasparri]

Photons attract other photons gravitationally.

  And sometimes they wear eye shadow. Yes, they do and what
  they do too is the same thing every other thing do too also.
  Can you say gravity is a function of matter and that matter
  is that which energy isn't? What's the difference? Fields.
  Fields is what everything has one or more of. They come in
  many flavors and sizes and fortunately they are apolitical.
  Fields have a formidable behavior spectrum and so they can
  impose themselves upon matter in many various ways. Fields
  can give rise to many illusions and optical tricks that
  can befuddle the unwary and make them forget to feed the
  parakeet. Fields are the servants that pack the load
  when energy decides to move to a new location. A farmer
  is a person who is outstanding in his field. One day
  two hydrogen atoms were walking along and one said to
  the other; "I have lost an electron." The other hydrogen
  atom queried; "Are you sure?". "I'm positive." said
  the first.

  Hey... It's the full moon.

[Vern]

Do photons have mass? And what's the mass of one photon? Please, support your possible argument wiht serious references.

Photons have mass when they are considered as part of a closed system as in the mirrored box analogy above. The mass of one photon so enclosed is equivalent to energy in accord with E = mc².

Hey... It's the full moon.

  [] []

I have trouble with the concept that only a small portion of a planet contributes to its gravity. Observations of gravity between asteroids would seem to contradict the idea.

[cyberphlak (OP)]

Gasparri, I read your theory. I think you have something to work with there and thinking in a simplistic manner is, in my opinion, always the best answer. (Occam's Law would agree). What you need to quantify the notion is a formula that works.

[cyberphlak (OP)]

I took the time to clean up the original post just a bit. It would be really helpful to be able to post the images and other supporting figures.

[NN]

@Vern

You said:

"Photons have mass when they are considered as part of a closed system as in the mirrored box analogy above. The mass of one photon so enclosed is equivalent to energy in accord with E = mc2."

Well... Those are virtual photons. Could we attribute mass to a wave?

[Vern]

Why do you say photons trapped in a mirrored box are virtual photons. Photons are real changes in electric and magnetic potential. It is when a photon's potential is realized that QM theory brings in a virtual photon to affect the change.

Real electromagnetic waves trapped in a local area by any method are mass. Notice that I didn't say they have mass. 

[NN]

Why do you say photons trapped in a mirrored box are virtual photons. Photons are real changes in electric and magnetic potential. It is when a photon's potential is realized that QM theory brings in a virtual photon to affect the change.

Real electromagnetic waves trapped in a local area by any method are mass. Notice that I didn't say they have mass. 

I said they are virtual photons considering that we have not an external operator neither a source of energy. Those photons into the closed system would need to gain energy. If the energy of one photon is obtained by cooperative interactions, one of the photons would undergo a decrease of its energy density and the other would experience the increase of its energy density. Through obtaining energy, the gravitational energy of the photon would invariably get higher in proportion to the increase of its energy density, so we would need an external operator or a source of energy into the box to make all photons into the cage have the same energy density so they can be considered having like mass. On the other hand, if gravitational energy increases, the photon would become crazy and would be jumping on the top of the field until finally it starts sliding slowly down to the vacuum band, where it would remain oscillating as any real photon. Remember that the laws of thermodynamics are homogeneous and symmetric.

[NN]

Nevertheless, why you don't use the correct terminology? Instead the term "mass", why not using momentum (E = pc)?

[Vern]

Why do you say photons trapped in a mirrored box are virtual photons. Photons are real changes in electric and magnetic potential. It is when a photon's potential is realized that QM theory brings in a virtual photon to affect the change.

Real electromagnetic waves trapped in a local area by any method are mass. Notice that I didn't say they have mass. 

I said they are virtual photons considering that we have not an external operator neither a source of energy. Those photons into the closed system would need to gain energy. If the energy of one photon is obtained by cooperative interactions, one of the photons would undergo a decrease of its energy density and the other would experience the increase of its energy density. Through obtaining energy, the gravitational energy of the photon would invariably get higher in proportion to the increase of its energy density, so we would need an external operator or a source of energy into the box to make all photons into the cage have the same energy density so they can be considered having like mass. On the other hand, if gravitational energy increases, the photon would become crazy and would be jumping on the top of the field until finally it starts sliding slowly down to the vacuum band, where it would remain oscillating as any real photon. Remember that the laws of thermodynamics are homogeneous and symmetric.

Maybe there is a language barrier or something, but I can find no logic in your reasoning. Photons in a mirrored box would not need outside help and would not need to be virtual photons. A virtual particle is one that exists for less time than it takes to detect it.

[NN]

Why do you say photons trapped in a mirrored box are virtual photons. Photons are real changes in electric and magnetic potential. It is when a photon's potential is realized that QM theory brings in a virtual photon to affect the change.

Real electromagnetic waves trapped in a local area by any method are mass. Notice that I didn't say they have mass. 

I said they are virtual photons considering that we have not an external operator neither a source of energy. Those photons into the closed system would need to gain energy. If the energy of one photon is obtained by cooperative interactions, one of the photons would undergo a decrease of its energy density and the other would experience the increase of its energy density. Through obtaining energy, the gravitational energy of the photon would invariably get higher in proportion to the increase of its energy density, so we would need an external operator or a source of energy into the box to make all photons into the cage have the same energy density so they can be considered having like mass. On the other hand, if gravitational energy increases, the photon would become crazy and would be jumping on the top of the field until finally it starts sliding slowly down to the vacuum band, where it would remain oscillating as any real photon. Remember that the laws of thermodynamics are homogeneous and symmetric.

Maybe there is a language barrier or something, but I can find no logic in your reasoning. Photons in a mirrored box would not need outside help and would not need to be virtual photons. A virtual particle is one that exists for less time than it takes to detect it.

I didn't mention a need of external operators; I just was trying to imagine what you described. Are you considering Higgs' fields? That's what I am talking about.

Consider this argument from my post:

"...until finally it starts sliding slowly down to the vacuum band, where it would remain oscillating as any real photon." There would be enough time for detecting it. Conversely, in your "mirrored box" you have not a single chance of observing them.

[Vern]

No; I was not considering Higg's field. The Higgs idea is just another complication of an otherwise profoundly simple phenomena. Mass exists. The relationship between electromagnetic change and mass is well known. We have known it for over a hundred years. Any time there is a change in electric and magnetic amplitude there is either potential energy or mass. If the change is confined within an observable system, it is mass. If it is not confined, it is potential energy.

We seem to have diverged from the OP. I think we were trying to consider the nature of gravity. The core idea was that gravity was an electromagnetic phenomena happening within a small radius at the centre of planets and stars. Although we can devise maths for this, it does not work for many other reasons.

[cyberphlak (OP)]

"We seem to have diverged from the OP. I think we were trying to consider the nature of gravity. The core idea was that gravity was an electromagnetic phenomena happening within a small radius at the centre of planets and stars. Although we can devise maths for this, it does not work for many other reasons."

Such as?

[Vern]

One of the first reasons I mentioned was that photons attract each other gravitationally. That seems to contradict your premise.

[Gasparri]

Gasparri, I read your theory. I think you have something to work with there and thinking in a simplistic manner is, in my opinion, always the best answer. (Occam's Law would agree). What you need to quantify the notion is a formula that works.

  The quantification has already been done by Newton. What remains
  is the qualification. In other words Newtons laws only need some
  slight corrections to establish field entities and in so doing
  will yield perfect answers across all physics.

[yor_on]

Gasparri quite so
For me there is always a full moon.

Gravity is best described for me as a 'field'. It's something existing everywhere directly connected/related to invariant mass and motion. It's like some sort of 'flux' or combination of strains of SpaceTime. That's why your rocket can have a 'inertial reaction' as we manipulate its 'energy' and strain the 'gravitational' field of SpaceTime by acceleration or course change even in deep space far away from any gravitational objects, somewhat like uniform motion contains a 'hidden momentum' which only defines itself in its 'impact' if you get my drift. It's not a 'force' in the same way we like to see f ex. electricity to be. To me a better description might be a 'SpaceTime inertia'

[Vern]

What if we simplify the problem by removing all but photons. Now we can see that in our soup of photons, they tend to change their direction of travel toward larger concentrations of photons. We might try and construct an anatomy for photons that would explain this tendency they have to change their direction of travel toward larger concentrations of themselves. This anatomy must explain the attractive behaviour but must still be consistent with all observations of photons.

So lets make a photon that consists of two half cycles of electric and magnetic amplitude. We set it in motion in accord with Maxwell's equations. We see from the maths that the electric and magnetic half cycles both go to electric and magnetic saturation. Now to explain why the photons tend to change direction toward larger concentrations, we consider that the radiating electric and magnetic fields of all photons contribute toward the saturation amplitude of all other photons. The points of saturation therefore tend to be offset toward increasing field strength. The result is a slight tendency to alter direction of travel toward higher concentrations of photons.

Now let us consider the real world, but inject into it this photon. We know that in the real world there is no evidence that massive particles are not composed of trapped photons. While there is much evidence that massive particles are comprised of photons alone. If we take nature at face value we see that the force of gravity is a natural part of it. It is the tendency of photons to change direction toward concentrations of photons. Since massive objects are concentrations of photons, massive objects attract each other.

[Ben Evans]

Wow! Please don't beat me in the head but I have consigned
gravity and time to the grey box. To me gravity is a result not a force.
Time is a tool to measure motion and nothing more.

  By discarding those abstracts, time and gravity, my view of the
  universe has become much clearer.

I agree. Gravity is a result of mass and not a force at all

[cyberphlak (OP)]

I disagree completely. In fact, I am working on refining this theory to prove that mass relating to gravity is only coincidence rather than a true factor. It is a force as it meets all requirements to be one. It is not, however, a separate force to its own.

[cyberphlak (OP)]

I have completely rewritten the theory and now have the evidence to back it up as well as the equation. A portion of the info provided in this write up has been corrected. I appreciate all the feedback. The findings and paper have been submitted for review.