[noden1 (OP)]

does the existence of a design imply the existence of a designer,

[Exodus]

Is this an essay you have to do or somethig? seems very obscure... can you explain in what way you want people to answer this?

Resident Tour Operator - The Naked Scientists

[Donnah]

Noden1, is a random pattern a design?

[McGee]

There is a Designer and a Planner.  I believe nothing is random.  Everything happens for a reason.

Teachers don't make a lot of money, but they make a lot of difference.

[noden1 (OP)]

no essay,its not a question of what i want ,just interested in peoples ideas on cause and design

[sarge]

No its about interpretation. How we perceive structures in chaos says more about us and our culture.

[D@vé]

quote:Originally posted by sarge

No its about interpretation. How we perceive structures in chaos says more about us and our culture.

How can you have a chaotic structure?

[Dougal]

quote:Originally posted by D@vé
How can you have a chaotic structure?

Come and visit where I work - you'll see!

[Igor Clark]

Does the existence of a designer entail the existence of a design?

[penisman]

Well if there is, he's made a bloody piss poor job of it.

[DaulP]

Far from being discredited, my differential polynomial randomising-tree wallpaper design experience has shown that in the production of endlessly random but matching-at-the-edges designs predicates the need for a mathematician as the controlling entity of the mathematical function, but completely sidesteps the need for a designer .

And it works for music as well.

[Igor Clark]

penisman - that is the point of the topic I've realised, no there isn't a great designer, just a rubbish one.

Daul, I think I'm starting to understand your argument finally. Those people who called you wacko were the real wacks. Does this work on those T-shirts that don't have a seam down the side? It's true, isn't it - once you understand the pattern you start to see it everywhere!

[Donnah]

There is no final answer, only individual perceptions.  My perception is that for someone to legitimately call themselves a designer they must have formulated a design and where there's a design, something or someone must have created the design.  It's cause and effect.

[Igor Clark]

Thanks Donnah. But that's just semantic really isn't it?

[Feline1]

Semantics? Schemantics? Pedantics?!!

Ahien!!

[cobra427]

yeah but who designed the egg..[:I]

[sarge]

quote:Originally posted by D@vé

quote:Originally posted by sarge

No its about interpretation. How we perceive structures in chaos says more about us and our culture.

How can you have a chaotic structure?

Good point Dave but the point I was how we make sense and order out what appears as chaos.
eg Listening to a straight  4/4 time signature with western instrumentation would be easier  to make common sense than  say  a polyrhymic sound collage of  apparent  randomness.

or

What  happens in  one 24 hour cycle may be random but when  viewed or recorded over several years/decades/cultural patterns appear.

[n/a]

Sementic?

quote:Originally posted by Igor Clark

Thanks Donnah. But that's just semantic really isn't it?

[heythere]

If there is a design there is a designer, because without a designer there would be no design. You cannot have a design without a designer as it would only be random otherwise. A design is as stated in the dictionary, something that is intended / worked for. Give me an example of a design that has no designer and proce me wrong

[heythere]

In response to:
"There is a Designer and a Planner. I believe nothing is random. Everything happens for a reason."
I believe nothing happens for any other reason apart from the fact that it is how it is going to be...Fate.
If you think about it; you may believe that you are responsible for coming to these forums and reading these messages or for making yourself a cup of tea, but you are not.
If you look at the big picture: We are only a group of proteins with energy running through them...your body responds to checmicals and signals from your senses, so whatever you do in the next 10 seconds will be defined by people and things everywhere. If someone swings a cricket bat at your head your eyes will send a signal to your brain which will then send signals to your muscles making you duck out of the way.
It's hard to explain but my point is. We can only respond to circumstances as the brain sees fit. YOU HAVE NO CONTROL.
Or I might be wrong.