[shug]

quote:Originally posted by chris

Mate - it's exactly the same reference that you quoted from earlier on in this piece but is the bit that you forgot to mention - maybe the hash is affecting your memory []

I didn't forget it, it is not evidence, merely a suggestion. Please provide some science to back up your personal opinion.
Thanks

Hugh Robertson
Legalise Cannabis Alliance
PO Box 198
Norwich NR3 3WB

[drkev]

Now this is a situation I have been in before....

When people talk about the legalisation of Cannabis someone always says "Yeah but Alcohol is legal and that's more dangerous" or "But Tobacco is legal"

The legalisation of a drug should not be based upon the fact that another possibly more dangerous drug is legal. The deciscion must be purely based upon the merits of the Cannabis itself.

Now that we have moved that aside, here is some of what I have learned during the research of this drug.

The main ingredients in Cannabis that we must concern ourselves with when considering the medical benefits of Cannabis are the Cannabinoids of which there are over 60 including: Tetra hydra cannabinol, Cannabidol propyl analogue etc

All the Cannabinoids have analgesic properties, anti spasmodic effects and act as anti convulsants. They also have an anti emetic effect and appetite stimulant properties.

However cannabis can produce adverse mood effects leading to anxiety, depression and paranoia.

Cannabis can produce acute psychosis, confusion and amnesia.

Cannabis use causes increased heart rate by 20%-100%. Postural blood pressure is also affected.

However, the risk of overdose is nil as the acute toxicity risk very low.

When cannabis is smoked, 4 times the amount of tar is deposited on the lungs when compared to tobacco.

Use of cannabis has been linked to bronchitis, increased abnormalities in bronchial tissue when compared to smokers, erythema and is 3 times more carcinogenic than tobacco.

There have also been cases of cancer found in the digestive tracts of young people with a history of cannabis use. This is significant because this is rarely found in people under the age of 60 even among tobacco smokers.

THC also inhibits reproductive function resulting in decreased fertility in Men.

My essay is 4500 words long so I do not wish to reproduce it here!!!

Instead I hope I have introduced you to some of the FACTS.

Without more research on the harmful effects of this drug I do not support legalisation.

Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher

[NakedScientist]

Dear Kevin

your essay sounds interesting - how would you like to submit it, or a shortened version, to the Naked Science articles section on the site ?

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/columnmenu.htm

TNS

[drkev]

I will abridge it and send it for your approval with full references in case people want to research it further.

Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher

[NakedScientist]

Dear Kevin

yes please, that sounds great. Please endeavour to include some diagrams and images with it (please note, it is your responsibility to secure copyright permissions on all images and diagrams that you submit).

If it is too long it is always possible to turn it into a series of articles, each inn turn tackling a different aspect of the pharmacology of cannabis.

This will be good CV points if we can get it published for you.

TNS

[Ylide]

Some interesting facts you bring up, Kevin.  But you know what?  There are quite a few things we do to ourselves willingly that can cause health problems, but they are not illegal.  Poor diet and lack of exercise are just as dangerous to one's health as smoking.  

Eating at McDonalds and sitting on one's big fat ass watching TV all day will take YEARS off one's life.  How about we do some studies, conclude it's dangerous, and make it all against the law?  Mandatory salads and pushups for all!  

Sound stupid?  Now you know how the pro-marijuana community feels.  Instead of legislating and punishing, how about we provide education and treatment?  To steal a slogan from the abortion argument:  My body, my decision.  


I think most pot smokers, medical or recreational, are aware the health risks.  We may be stoned but we're not stupid.  For living in a society that seems to be hung up on freedom and personal responsibility, this whole issue is retarded.  Don't like it?  Don't smoke it.  




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[tweener]

quote:Originally posted by cannabinoid

 ...
For living in a society that seems to be hung up on freedom and personal responsibility,.....

Freedom is being degraded every day, primarily by those who refuse to take personal responsibility for anything.  Unfortunately, they are rapidly becoming the majority and will thus control our society completely.


----
John

[Donnah]

Responsibility (aka accountability).  Is that related in some way, shape or form to our governing bodies?

[tweener]

I don't think so.   At least I can't see any accountability in the last 4 or 5 administrations.  I know there is none at the state level.  Maybe a little on the local level, but not much.

Yours truly, the eternal pessimist.


----
John

[drkev]

Quote "My body, my decision"

So should heroin be legalised then? Should cocaine be legal then? If it's your body hell you can do what you want to it.

I am not a lawyer, I'm a pharmacologist (future doctor). My job is to research and investigate the effects of drugs on people.

We live in a structured and organised society with rules and regulations. You don't like that then you go live on a desert Island.

"..provide treatment" You choose to pump that crap into your body so why shouldf the overstretched NHS have to pay for your treatment? When it is a known fact that Cannabis is 3 times more carcinogenic than tobacco and 4 times the amount of tar is deopsited on the lungs.

When Mrs Jones has to wait for her hip operation because Mr "I can do what I want to my body is in her hospital bed" then my point will be clear.

We have laws that prohibit dangerous activity for reasons. So should the following be legal?

Playing on railways?
Jumping off of buildings?
Running in traffic?
Cocaine?
Heroin?
Self Harming?

After all it's your body

Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher

[tweener]

Maybe all that and more should be legal. The only illegal things should be interfering with others lives, property and wellbeing (define "dangerous" as damaging to others).  As for the medical treatment, self-inflicted problems should be at the bottom of the list.  If someone kills themself, maybe the gene pool is a little better for it.  Maybe if someone is having trouble in their life, treatment is better than fines and imprisonment (which just makes more trouble).

I know this is incendiary for this group, but the idea of suicide being a bad thing seems to be rooted in the judeo-christian religion rather than real human nature.  The big answers are not easy, but making a law against something does not make it go away.  It mostly just makes the people not breaking the law feel better about themselves.




----
John

[Donnah]

I want marijuana legalized.  To penalize the sick who could benefit from its use because of others who abuse it makes no more sense than banning pharmaceuticals that are sold in the black market.

[Ylide]

quote:  So should heroin be legalised then? Should cocaine be legal then? If it's your body hell you can do what you want to it.

  Yes, absolutely.  Make it all legal.  I think we've already proven that prohibition is largely ineffective.  Instead of dumping hundreds of billions of dollars putting these people into prison, how about we spend a fraction of that treating their addiction and god-forbid do some medical research into addiction and find an inexpensive solution.  What do you think costs the state more...a couple months in rehab or 10 years in the pokey?  Considering the average cost to house and feed a prisoner is greater than the median household income in this country, I think we both know the answer to that.  

You make a claim of having  an old woman that can't get her hip replacement surgery because some junkie is taking up a bed.  Denying someone medical treatment because of health issues caused by personal choice goes against everything medicine stands for.  If you truly have that attitude, I feel sorry for any patients you may have should you go into medical practice.  As I stated above, many of our choices in life result in poor health.  Maybe Mrs Jones needs a new hip because she's a big fat slob who couldn't watch what she ate her whole life and the strain of being heavy gave her arthritis.  Does that make her morally superior because her self-induced health issues were not caused by a substance that a few old religious white guys decided made people a little too happy?

Maybe the issue is not wether or not drugs should be illegal, but wether we as a nation have the ability develop a sensible health care plan.  Education and treatment do a lot more in the prevention of drug use than incarceration ever will.  If your goal is truly that of the welfare and health of your fellow man, drkev, perhaps you should take that into consideration.  



This message brought to you by The Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People

[drkev]

Quote "...define dangerous as being damaging to others"

OK so what about all the people who choose not to pollute their bodies with that crap and some idiot comes along and decides to smoke it in their presence?

You see there are people who choose not to smoke either tobacco or cannabis and we have that choice taken away from us by inconsiderate smokers who don't give a damn.

We have a right to fresh air and we do not want to passivly smoke either tobacco smoke or cannabis smoke.

So it is damaging to others.

Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher

[genegenie]

I would also like to see it legalized. As far as I'm concerned, we should be able to make our own (informed) choices about what we do with our bodies. As long as we are aware of the risks, and we are not harming others (ie. ban smoking in public places) it should be our choice.

[bezoar]

Unfortunately, people obviously do not wisely control what they do with their bodies, and when they don't, it affects the rest of us directly or indirectly, from the coke head who gets paranoid and attacks someone, to the smoker who gets emphysema and ends up costing thousands in medical care that will be subsidized by his private insurance company, making the rates go higher for the rest of us, or by Medicare, and the reimbursements will drop for the docs while the cost goes up.  There has to be some type of control.  I'm not sure what the answer is, but I don't think an across the board legalization with an anything goes type attitude is it.

Bezoar

[tweener]

Kevin, I agree that second hand smoke is annoying and possibly dangerous, though I think the danger may be overrated.  Thus there should definitely be controls on where smoking anything is permitted.

Bezoar, I also agree that in reality, damaging behavior affects all of us in some fashion and there must be some sort of control.  

My smart-ass answer above is a good theory, but it neglects way too much real-world reality.  The laws we have certainly aren't doing the job, and I really don't see how more laws are going to help.  There must be some other approach, but I don't have a clue what it might be.


----
John

[genegenie]

I agree Bezoar, people don't wisely control what they do with their bodies, which is why life-style type diseases are so prevalent. Yet it seems ridiculous that people can drink and smoke tobacco and eat junk until they end up suffering a stroke, or liver cancer, and our health system welcomes them with open arms, while someone with an illegal drug problem is treated like a second-class citizen. Surely the wasted Govt revenue spent on catching drug users could be redirected to education about the health risks. And if drugs were legalised, you could be sure that the Govt would put a hefty tax on it, which could also be redirected to health care etc. I wonder whether legalization would actually increase drug use - it would certainly take away the 'coolness' value for some.

[Donnah]

I wish psychology was a compulsory part of our education.  It has certainly been one of the most useful subjects I've ever studied.

"The effectiveness of punishment depends entirely on how and when it is used.  Punishment should be swift...sufficient without being cruel...also consistent, or certain.  By itself, punishment simply inhibits or supresses behavior.  It doesn't teach an alternative behavior to replace what is being punished...We are not born with all our motives intact.  We have already seen that even motives that appear to be unlearned - such as hunger, thirst, and sex - are actually learned in part.  As we develop, our behavior becomes governed by new motives, that are almost entirely learned.  Although these new motives are learned rather than innate, they can exert just as much control over our behavior as unlearned drives and motives do."

Quoted from Understanding Psychology by Charles G. Morris

[drkev]

The tax money that the governemnt places upon Cannabis if any legalisation takes place would not cover the cost of the healthcare. The tax on tobacco does not cover the cost of treating smokers.

I learned this in Sociology so I can reference this as fact.

Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher