What cancer therapies are available?

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Offline sonia_jenifer

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What cancer therapies are available?
« on: 23/09/2010 09:36:16 »
Science has grown so much and is growing is there any medicine found for cancer?

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« Last Edit: 29/09/2010 08:57:20 by chris »
Thanks
sonia

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Offline imatfaal

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #1 on: 23/09/2010 10:41:00 »
Wow - spamming a genome sequencing service.  Bit scary that a scientific company couldn't think up a better question too!
There’s no sense in being precise when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.  John Von Neumann

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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #2 on: 24/09/2010 05:26:16 »
In Northern NSW Aust a fellow diagnosed with cancer defied science and his doctors by drinking a brew of pawpaw leaves. He is still living today.

Quote
Gold Coast based resident Stan Sheldon has for years claimed the abilities of Papaya leaves in curing cancer. A cancer survivor himself, he told the Gold Coast Bulletin how ingestion of Paw Paw leaves from the papaya tree led to a full recovery when all hope was lost.
http://www.ozcarguide.com/health/health-a-z/cancer/2361-papaya-benefits-cancer-cure
« Last Edit: 24/09/2010 05:29:30 by echochartruse »
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Offline JnA

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #3 on: 25/09/2010 01:28:45 »
hmmm one anecdote with no other information does not a cure make.

I don't doubt that there are 'beneficial' elements in papaya.. but I am always very wary of multi claims like cures cancer and helps with quick weight loss (so does cancer) improves skin quality, hair loss prevention and (I love the note at the bottom)  - Additionally, papaya has been found to be especially beneficial for women looking to enhance their breast size. A common misconception is that it would have the same effect for men, OZCAR is happy to know that this isn't one of the side effects of papaya.



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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #4 on: 25/09/2010 06:54:57 »
ScienceDaily (Sep. 8, 1997)
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The studies show that the pawpaw compounds not only are effective in killing tumors that have proven resistant to anti-cancer agents, but also seem to have a special affinity for such resistant cells.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/09/970908043817.htm

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Over 100 scientific papers have been published concerning the biochemistry of pawpaw substances, including significant positive results of in vitro anti-cancer studies. Most importantly, an informal and unpublished clinical trial involving 94 cancer patients, undertaken by Dr James Forsythe of the Reno Cancer Screening and Treatment Center in Nevada, showed that a significant number of terminal patients responded positively to treatment with pawpaw extract. A selection of ten positive case studies demonstrate that pawpaw extract reduced tumour markers and tumour sizes, as well as increasing longevity.

 
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Papaya leaf juice is claimed to have reversed cancer in many people living on the Gold Coast
in Australia. Harold W. Tietze in his book Papaya The Medicine Tree, describes how to make .....the Gold Coast Bulletin.
“PawPaw Cancer Plea Bears Fruit". Gold coast gardeners have responded to an appeal by
cancer victims desperate to find supplies of pawpaw leaves. And the Gold Coast man who,
14 years ago, first exposed the leaves as a possible cure for cancer has been tracked down
to a Labrador (Gold Coast) nursing home. The story of how Stan Sheldon cured himself of
cancer by drinking the boiled extract of pawpaw leaves was first told in the Gold Coast
Bulletin in 1978.

Now research in the United States has given scientific support to his claim, isolating a
chemical compound in the pawpaw tree which is reported to be a million times stronger than
the strongest anti-cancer drug. Mr Sheldon, says the discovery does not surprise him..... The recipe is as follows:
Wash and partly dry several medium-size papaya leaves. Cut them up like cabbage and
place them in a saucepan with 2 quarts/ litres of water. Bring the water and leaves to the boil
and simmer without a lid until the water is reduced by half.
Strain the liquid and bottle in glass containers.
The concentrate will keep in the refrigerator for three to four days. If it becomes cloudy, it
should be discarded.

The recommended dosage in the original recipe is 3 Tablespoons/ 50ml three times a day. It
is recommended to read Papaya The Medicine Tree for the interesting stories of "incurable”
people who have used this extract to beat their cancer, and for other medicinal uses of
papaya
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9882730/Papaya-Leaf-Cure

http://www.cancerevolution.info/index.php?/cancer-therapy/Cell-energy-limitation-therapy/graviola-paw-paw-and-acetogenenins-containing-plants.html

Radium weed is used to eliminate skin cancer
The Queensland Institute of Medical Research has found a natural plant-based gel known as PEP-005 that can reduce and eradicate sunspots after two days.

Dr Jim Aylward discovered the enzyme in the plant known as the radium weed.

"My mother had been keeping a weed growing for years, and she knew that it had great effects against skin cancer," he said.

Institute spokesman Dr Peter Parsons says scientists are now looking at using the enzyme to treat a variety of cancers.

These come from natural products that we can grow and use but still science insists on manufacturing pills.
Cancer = $$

This team has developed a new anti-cancer drug derived from the sap of a plant called Euphorbia peplus  or radium weed in Australia. In human clinical trials the drug has been very effective in the treatment of skin cancer, one of the most common forms of cancer.

http://www.ausbiotech.org/UserFiles/File/AusBio-Magazine_March2007.pdf
« Last Edit: 25/09/2010 07:04:14 by echochartruse »
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Offline Variola

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #5 on: 25/09/2010 09:18:10 »
Quote
These come from natural products that we can grow and use but still science insists on manufacturing pills.
Cancer = $$   

No science insists on verifiable replication, if the natural products work, they will/would be researched, trialled and made into an effective
medicine. That is what science is, taking something that might work, seeing if it does work and making it into a medicine whether that is from a plant or an already known compound is irrelevant.
I for one am heartily sick of the claim that scientists are not interested in natural cures because we are driven by money.
There is no 'cure' for any cancer as yet, all we can do at best is to enable the patient to live cancer-free for as long as possible and hope it does not return. It is my personal feeling that eventually cancer will become like HIV, people live with it much longer than previously, but there is no cure.
Pharmaceutical companies may have a lot to answer for, but they are not a charity, they will only fund research that is beneficial and has some hope of improvement, they are a business and will not fund research that they feel they will lose money, that is just common sense.

If there was any solid proof, in terms of research that a plant or fruit had any verifiable affects on cancer, the research would be snapped up and funded.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #6 on: 25/09/2010 11:31:58 »
Actually, there are cures for some forms of cancer. Surgery is an obvious one, but drugs like cisplatin can destroy some cancers completely.
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Offline Variola

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #7 on: 25/09/2010 13:13:03 »
Actually, there are cures for some forms of cancer. Surgery is an obvious one, but drugs like cisplatin can destroy some cancers completely.

Yes but it is not a certainty the cancer will not return, that is what I would define as a cure, when we can be certain something will not return. Hence living with cancer, or living with the possibility it might return is the best we can do at present.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #8 on: 25/09/2010 15:28:26 »
I understand that if the cancer hasn't returned after 5 years it's generally considered to be gone for good i.e. cured.
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Offline Variola

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #9 on: 25/09/2010 16:38:31 »
I understand that if the cancer hasn't returned after 5 years it's generally considered to be gone for good i.e. cured.

That is a benchmark when the cancer is considered to be in full remission, but most consultants wont talk about it in terms of a cure because it is so unpredictable in nature.
Plus if something is a cure, it should work for a particular cancer in all or very vast majority of people, however it is just not like that.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #10 on: 26/09/2010 10:21:05 »
Surgery generally works for the great majority of people, (provided that you can cut out all the cancer of course).

What's the difference between remission and cure? If the cancer doesn't come back then it doesn't come back.
If someone get's athletes foot, then dunks their feet in a fungicide and the infection goes away but they get the same disease again later (from another changing room floor or whatever) was that temporary remission or the cure failing or what?

It's going to be a matter of definition.
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Offline Variola

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #11 on: 26/09/2010 11:55:02 »
Surgery is a prime example, if you can get all the cancer ad surrounding cancerous tissue, but it is impossible to tell if you have got all the cancerous cells, which is why surgery is often combined with chemotherapy. But again it depends on the type of cancer and where it is located.
Cancer is a combination of genetic mutations, the circumstances that caused that set of mutations may still be present inside the body, it may be controlled by the usual routes or it may lead to cancer again. There are so many factors involved because it is the body itself, it cannot be compared to the invasion of a pathogen, like Athlete's foot.
Most people reading this forum will have mutations in cells in their body, but they are dealt with by the body through *various routes and so cancer does not develop, that does not mean those safety measures will not fail in the future. If it does develop, and is successfully treated, and does not return for some years, that does not mean the genetic mutations are still not present in cell lineage and those safety measures will not fail again. A 'cure' is a tenuous term when it comes to cancer because it relies on the body's mechanisms as much as it does drug therapy.

*denotes this is a very complex issue so I have not gone into great reams of detail that a full explanation would require.And I would be in dager of boring the pants off people....  [:)]
« Last Edit: 26/09/2010 11:57:04 by Variola »
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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #12 on: 26/09/2010 22:06:04 »
Actually, there are cures for some forms of cancer. Surgery is an obvious one, but drugs like cisplatin can destroy some cancers completely.

Yes but it is not a certainty the cancer will not return, that is what I would define as a cure, when we can be certain something will not return. Hence living with cancer, or living with the possibility it might return is the best we can do at present.
A drug has been made available for ovarian cancer and administered to all females who want to participate under the age of 25 yrs for free. or was this just a trial?
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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #13 on: 26/09/2010 22:18:16 »
Scientifically proven that Pawpaw compound is effective in 'killing' tumors. also proof from non scientific volunteers who has taken the boiled leaf remedy after science/doctors gave them the death sentence. Most still alive today living without cancer.

Yes but it is not a certainty the cancer will not return, that is what I would define as a cure, when we can be certain something will not return. Hence living with cancer, or living with the possibility it might return is the best we can do at present.

Radium weed is used extensively here in its natural form, due to being the region on earth with most skin cancer disease. It cures it, it does not return, I can personally assure you that. why would we want to synthesise, manufacture or commercialise the weed?
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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #14 on: 26/09/2010 22:40:20 »
Cancer is a combination of genetic mutations, the circumstances that caused that set of mutations may still be present inside the body, it may be controlled by the usual routes or it may lead to cancer again. There are so many factors involved because it is the body itself,

We all may carry genetics or DNA associated with cancer but never get it. It is our lifestyle, the food we eat, the place we live, etc. What science should be concerned with is finding the initiator of mutations caused to our genes and control that, which sounds more feasible to me, probably less commercially profitable though.


Quote
Natural Chemical From Sea Sponges Induces Death In Cancer Cells Via Unusual Pathway

ScienceDaily (Aug. 29, 2008) — A chemical called candidaspongiolide (CAN) inhibits protein synthesis but also kills cancer cells by triggering caspase 12-dependent programmed cell death, according to an article in the Aug. 26 online issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080827223119.htm
Also on this site other cancer killing treatments mentioned

Quote
Scientists Create New Process to 'Program' Cancer Cell Death. ScienceDaily (Sep. 8, 2010)
« Last Edit: 26/09/2010 23:12:40 by echochartruse »
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Offline Variola

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #15 on: 27/09/2010 09:25:40 »
Actually, there are cures for some forms of cancer. Surgery is an obvious one, but drugs like cisplatin can destroy some cancers completely.



Yes but it is not a certainty the cancer will not return, that is what I would define as a cure, when we can be certain something will not return. Hence living with cancer, or living with the possibility it might return is the best we can do at present.
A drug has been made available for ovarian cancer and administered to all females who want to participate under the age of 25 yrs for free. or was this just a trial?


I have not seen that drug, but I doubt it came with a 100% cure.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Variola

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #16 on: 27/09/2010 09:29:39 »
Quote
We all may carry genetics or DNA associated with cancer but never get it. It is our lifestyle, the food we eat, the place we live, etc. What science should be concerned with is finding the initiator of mutations caused to our genes and control that, which sounds more feasible to me, probably less commercially profitable though.

 

Er....we already do! That is what a lot of the research funding goes into. Problem is what happens in vitro is not always what happens in vivo.
The mutations are so complex, and peoples biochemistry is so variable, it is like unravelling a large ball of wool with a JCB!
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Offline Variola

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #17 on: 27/09/2010 09:32:56 »
Quote
Radium weed is used extensively here in its natural form, due to being the region on earth with most skin cancer disease. It cures it, it does not return, I can personally assure you that. why would we want to synthesise, manufacture or commercialise the weed?
 

To extract the active compound and analyse it's effect, thus possibly opening up the chance of it being effective against other types of cancer, and to ensure people get the correct dosage to maximise their chances of recovery.
And how do you know it does not return? Skin cancer does not restrict itself to the skin.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #18 on: 28/09/2010 22:44:20 »
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for research.
A drug has been made available for ovarian cancer and administered to all females who want to participate under the age of 25 yrs for free. or was this just a trial?

I have not seen that drug, but I doubt it came with a 100% cure.
My appology 'cervical cancer' not ovarian cancer. The injection was offered to all woman in Australia under 25yr old for Free.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/cancer-vaccine-not-before-2008-abbott/2006/11/10/1162661861926.html

I would hope that is had been proven to be 100% effective but it came with a warning that woman were not to stop having pap smears. Although I have known Australia to be the testing ground for various chemical, medical etc experiements, so if no other country has heard of this maybe Australians are just the 'test shop dummies' for this vaccine?!
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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #19 on: 28/09/2010 22:50:29 »
Radium weed is applied direct to skin cancer. You pick the weed and place the white sap directly onto the effected area. In 2-3 days it is burned off. It's been used for years here and doctors will perscribe, by telling us to go pick it and how to use it.

I'm all for experiementing and reasearching just don't know why we have to bottle it.
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Offline Geezer

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #20 on: 29/09/2010 02:51:32 »
I would hope that is had been proven to be 100% effective but it came with a warning that woman were not to stop having pap smears. Although I have known Australia to be the testing ground for various chemical, medical etc experiements, so if no other country has heard of this maybe Australians are just the 'test shop dummies' for this vaccine?!

This is also available in the US. I don't know much about it, but I seem to recall it's an immunization against a particular virus that can lead to cervical cancer.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #21 on: 29/09/2010 06:10:54 »
yes difficult to find info on the vaccine, here's some
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cervical_cancer
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Offline echochartruse

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #22 on: 29/09/2010 06:31:10 »
Actually, there are cures for some forms of cancer. Surgery is an obvious one, but drugs like cisplatin can destroy some cancers completely.

I've just found info on cisplatin.

Is that's why paw paw is not known to cancer patients?
With Paw paw, instead of drug companies taking the royalties for the cancer treatment, we may have to give the royalties to the farmers to grow the fruit.....Then we would have to set security fences around the perimiter of the farm, then employ security guards to transport it to the factory where it can be bottled and perscribed by doctors bought from chemists.

Nearly all of the university’s royalty income comes from cisplatin and carboplatin, and nearly 20 percent of RCT revenues comes from the two drugs.2 Because of this monetary component to the lawsuit, many people—including officials at other universities having contracts with RCT,
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #23 on: 29/09/2010 07:03:37 »
Echochartreuse.
Do you know that there are at least two anti cancer drugs extracted from plants?
The pharmaceutical companies would be quite happy to make money from paw paw in the same way they make it from yew trees and the Madagascar periwinkle.

Also, there are other reasons for establishing what the active ingredient is. Of course, it helps get the dose right and that's always a good thing.
It also means they can develop derivatives with better efficiency and fewer side effects.
« Last Edit: 29/09/2010 07:10:55 by Bored chemist »
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Offline echochartruse

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What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #24 on: 30/09/2010 01:43:05 »
I know that there are more than two componants of natural plants that is used in manufacturing drugs and it is apparent you do too.

I'm all for researching these componants but not for engineering the plants change prior to or at all before we fully understand all the plants componants and how they effect us.
Not to the extent of distroying these plants through environment mismanagement, corporate greed etc only to promote the manufactured, processed version able to be synthisised from knowing and studying the natural componants.

Quote from:  author London, Jan 20 (ANI): In a breakthrough study, MIT researchers have successfully engineered plants to produce entirely compounds that can be used as drugs against cancer.

The researchers have genetically altered plants into create chemicals they do not naturally make. The plant-produced compounds include molecules similar to cancer drugs................According to O”Connor, the resulting alkaloids vary only slightly from the compounds the periwinkle makes naturally, but such tweaks could prove useful for improving medicines that plants already make.
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/madagascar-periwinkle-engineered-to-produce-anti-cancer-compound_100144659.html


Note the words 'similar' and 'vary only slightly' (above)

Science has the key componant in plants to treat cancer but finds a need to be able to manufacture it.

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Offline Bored chemist

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What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #25 on: 30/09/2010 07:01:49 »
The compounds used definitely differ from those grown normally.
They may "vary only slightly" but the differences are bigger than the difference between methanol and ethanol. Do you understand that "similar" chemicals can have very different effects.

There's also the fact that the plants contain other, unwanted materials which only contribute toxicity without adding effectiveness. These are removed in the purification steps so modification of the plant "before we fully understand all the plants componants and how they effect us." is a non-issue. The other components are removed.

Whether the changes in chemistry are done in the plant or in the laboratory hardly matters.
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Offline Variola

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What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #26 on: 30/09/2010 07:52:52 »
Exactly, the difference between a drug working or not can be as little as 1 amino acid.
There is also the bioavailablity of a drug to consider, and the toxicity effects, What happens on the skin can be vastly different from the effect inside the body.
This is not just about the faults of the pharmaceutical companies, of which there are many, this is about biochemistry and the body.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Geezer

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What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #27 on: 30/09/2010 08:44:20 »
Exactly

All this agreeing stuff is making me a bit nervous  [::)]

I sense an impending attack. I'm heading for the underground bunker right now.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

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Offline Variola

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What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #28 on: 30/09/2010 17:15:33 »
Exactly

All this agreeing stuff is making me a bit nervous  [::)]


I sense an impending attack. I'm heading for the underground bunker right now.

Who from me or the BC??? [;)]
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline echochartruse

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What cancer therapies are available?
« Reply #29 on: 30/09/2010 23:05:25 »
If it works why fix (synthetically manufacture) it?

Toxic substances found in various flu vaccines include:

    * Dangerous levels of mercury in the form of thimerosal, a deadly preservative that is 50 times more toxic than regular mercury
    * Ethylene glycol (antifreeze)
    * Formaldehyde – a known cancer-causing agent
    * Neomycin and streptomycin (antibiotics)
    * Aluminum -- a neurotoxin linked to Alzheimer’s disease
    * Polysorbate 80 (Tween80™) – which can cause severe allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis
    * Phenol (carbolic acid)
    * Resin and gelatin - known to cause allergic reactions
    * Triton X100 (detergent)

So every year that you get a flu shot, you are taking a risk that one or more of these substances added by science to make it easier to manufacture will cause a problem in your body.

What good is adding mercury in flu vaccine to anyone?

Here is an example of a vaccine that has been banned in Australia due to causing convulsions, allergies and death. Now America is spending $2B to engineer plants to produce the vaccine quicker, even though it has been scientifically studied to find it is as effective as a placebo. Wall street expect the returns to double.

Quote from:  author  Western Australia Times
Flu vaccination ban goes national after fever, convulsions in children] Seasonal flu vaccinations have been suspended in Australia for all children under the age of five. The suspension comes after 23 children in Western Australia were admitted to hospitals with convulsions after receiving flu injections.

Quote from:  author The Wall Street Journal reported:
“To meet anticipated demand, manufacturers are producing between 160 million and 165 million doses this year, more than ever before … The CDC is accelerating development of two new tools to speed production of vaccine … One involves optimizing seed strains of virus used to make vaccine

Improved manufacturing techniques and invention of new adjuvants have greatly advanced the development of influenza vaccines, the fastest growing segment in the adult vaccine area, which is expected to generate $4 billion in sales by 2012.
One way to escape the recession OR lower populations!

So you say, it is NOT OK to take a natural, out of the garden product, as it may have an amino acid that may adversely effect us! [???] But it is OK to synthesise and add toxic additives and genetically modify the plant so science has control over what we ingest  [???]

http://organichealthadviser.com/archives/if-the-h1n1-swine-flu-vaccine-is-safe-then-why-are-so-many-people-being-hurt-by-it

The chief of The Swedish Institute for Infectious Disease Control (SMI), Annika Linde, says in the article: "- The Vaccine is principally natural to the body. The mercury was necessary but the amounts are very small.

 
Quote from:  authorBy Pongphon Sarnsamak The Nation Published on March 11, 2010

An independent academic who monitors social issues yesterday filed a lawsuit in the Central Administration Court against the Government Pharmaceutical Organisation and top health officials for failing to have human trials to test the type-A (H1N1) influenza virus vaccine following reports that six people had died after receiving the vaccine.

'H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccine Insert Admits It Causes Guillain-Barre Syndrome, Vasculitis, Paralysis, Anaphylactic Shock And Death.'http://thebirdflupandemic.com/archives/h1n1-swine-flu-vaccine-insert-admits-it-causes-guillain-barre-syndrome-vasculitis-paralysis-anaphylactic-shock-and-death

The above link may be useful for those who take the vaccination and may like to guard against any adverse effects from it.

$65m of swine flu vaccines may be destroyed in Australia as the vaccine is only effective for 6 months and still the companies make hugh profits
« Last Edit: 30/09/2010 23:37:06 by echochartruse »
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« Reply #30 on: 02/10/2010 16:50:55 »
"So every year that you get a flu shot, you are taking a risk that one or more of these substances added by science to make it easier to manufacture will cause a problem in your body."
And it has been shown that the risk is small; less than the risk from catching flu.

"What good is adding mercury in flu vaccine to anyone? "
It acts as a preservative; the fact that thiomersal is more toxic them metallic mercury is a bit of a red herring since it's mercury compounds that are toxic; the free metal isn't very poisonous.

"Here is an example of a vaccine that has been banned in Australia "
Nope; it has been suspended. There's a difference. Also, it has only been suspended for use in young children.

"Now America is spending $2B to engineer plants to produce the vaccine quicker"
Since most Americans are not young children this is perfectly reasonable.

"even though it has been scientifically studied to find it is as effective as a placebo."
A citation would help there.

"So you say, it is NOT OK to take a natural, out of the garden product, as it may have an amino acid that may adversely effect us!"
Nope, nobody said that.
I said that it would make sense to use a purified product rather than the mixture of compounds formed in a plant.
(Incidentally, do you put sugar in your tea, or do you stir it wit a bit of sugar cane until it is sweet enough? The idea is the same)

The other thing I said was that you can take something from a plant and modify it to make it more effective.
(When you get a headache, do you chew on willow bark or take an aspirin?)

"But it is OK to synthesise and add toxic additives and genetically modify the plant so science has control over what we ingest  "
A couple of points. First all things are toxic. Secondly "science" is an abstract concept and therefore cannot control what you ingest. You, on the other hand, can read the labels on things and only eat what you choose to.
If you are eating toxic things that's your choice.

"'H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccine Insert Admits It Causes Guillain-Barre Syndrome, Vasculitis, Paralysis, Anaphylactic Shock And Death.'http://thebirdflupandemic.com/archives/h1n1-swine-flu-vaccine-insert-admits-it-causes-guillain-barre-syndrome-vasculitis-paralysis-anaphylactic-shock-and-death"

Well spotted; all drugs and treatments have side effects. People generally are honest enough to publish them - for example on the page you have cited.
So what?

"$65m of swine flu vaccines may be destroyed in Australia as the vaccine is only effective for 6 months and still the companies make hugh profits"
There are roughly 20 million Australians so that's about 3$ each.
Ask someone with flu if they would have been prepared to pay 3$ to avoid it. I think most would be happy to pay a lot more than that.

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« Reply #31 on: 06/10/2010 05:38:13 »
I had to looked for the side effects and eventually found them but what Dr. is going to read out the list of concerns when administering the vaccination?
Choice,
That's right some don't think they have a choice. Here only 18% of the population took the vaccine and even  though there were a few deaths and other complications, I would imagine that a large proportion of the 18% didn't realize they had a choice or were not given the opportunity to say 'No" and still a profit was made.

We do use natural sugar cane here. although we don't use sugar often, if we use sugar at all. much better than the manufactured sweetener substitute such as the killer sacrin or whatever brand. Where do I buy willow bark please? I chew cloves if I have a tooth ache and I use Radium weed. why hasn't everyone been told of the natural method? why is the natural method called 'alternative' when firstly natural cures should be prime and synthesized should be alternate - in my opinion.
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« Reply #32 on: 06/10/2010 11:18:22 »
Cloves are definitely good for toothache, but also contain a tumour promoting chemical. BC's point is that a medicalised version would have this chemical removed.

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« Reply #33 on: 10/10/2010 00:53:01 »
Cloves are definitely good for toothache, but also contain a tumour promoting chemical. BC's point is that a medicalised version would have this chemical removed.

Has cloves ever been responsible for tumors?

The primary chemical constituents include eugenol, caryophyllene, and tannins. Cloves are said to have a positive effect on stomach ulcers, vomiting, flatulence, and to stimulate the digestive system. It has powerful local antiseptic and mild anesthetic actions. Japanese researchers have discovered that like many spices, clove contains antioxidants. Antioxidants help prevent the cell damage that scientists believe eventually causes cancer. On the other hand, in laboratory tests, the chemical eugenol, has been found to be a weak tumor promoter, making clove one of many healing herbs with both pro- and anti-cancer effects. At this point, scientists aren't sure which way the balance tilts. Until they are, anyone with a history of cancer should not use medicinal amounts of clove. For otherwise healthy non-pregnant, non-nursing adults, powdered clove is considered nontoxic.

"it has been proved not to be carcinogenic"

Eugenol is a natural phenolic compound that is the main component of clove oil and it is present in reasonable amounts in several other spices like basil, cinnamon and bay leaves. It is used as antiseptic, analgesic and anti-bacterial agent in traditional medicine in Asia as well as in dentistry as main ingredient of cavity filling cement. Several biological activities of eugenol have been described in literature [8,9] and it has been proved not to be carcinogenic neither mutagenic

so why change it?
« Last Edit: 10/10/2010 01:25:24 by echochartruse »
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« Reply #34 on: 10/10/2010 02:00:36 »
many things eaten taken in high doses will cause cancer.
such as Fluoride which is added to our drinking water and food so governments can close dental facilities.

Yet the practice has always been controversial, primarily due to fluoride's undisputed status as a highly reactive neurotoxin. More recent studies suggest that ingestion of fluoride can damage the thyroid gland and reduce children's IQ levels. In 2006, a study published in Cancer Causes and Control found that exposure to large amounts of fluoridated water made seven-year-old boys four times more likely to develop a rare bone cancer known as childhood osteosarcoma.

In the new study, conducted on behalf of The Globe and Mail, researchers from Statistics Canada compared the tooth decay rates in the provinces of Ontario, which has Canada's highest fluoridation rate, and Quebec, which has the lowest. Using data on more than 5,000 people, the researchers found no clinically significant difference.

Science seems eager to change, modify and engineer our natural resources without consideration of their long term effect.
As it seems science is run by the corporate $ and not ethics.

So science suggests cloves to be altered genetically because it has a component, not proven to cause cancer but would be more saleable if the component was extracted genetically and made into a pill, then on the other hand fluoride, know to cause bone cancer, is more poisonous than lead and just slightly less poisonous than arsenic, causes chalky teeth etc is added to our water supply.

Epidemiological evidence shows that fluoride causes cancer.
http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303222823
« Last Edit: 10/10/2010 02:02:32 by echochartruse »
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« Reply #35 on: 10/10/2010 11:02:12 »
"what Dr. is going to read out the list of concerns when administering the vaccination?"
One who doesn't want to get struck off for failing to obtain informed consent.

"why is the natural method called 'alternative' "
There are famously two sorts of medicine. That which works; and the alternative.

"such as the killer sacrin "
Has saccharin ever killed anyone?
If not, then you are talking utter bollocks.

" Here only 18% of the population took the vaccine and even  though there were a few deaths and other complications, "
This
http://www.msf.org.uk/measles_epidemic_southern_africa_malawi_20100604.news
is what happens if you don't have a vaccination program.

"still a profit was made."
What's wrong with making a profit?
Since you have access to the web I presume that you have some source of income. Would you have that if nobody was making a profit?


"I would imagine that a large proportion of the 18% didn't realize they had a choice or were not given the opportunity to say 'No""

Once again, you are accusing a vast number of doctors of malpractice. I presume you have no evidence for this slander.

"Where do I buy willow bark please? "
To whom do you plan to feed this toxic material?
Why not use the extracted and derivatised form- aspirin? It's converted back to the active form in the body. It's less damaging to the stomach. It comes in well characterised doses and it's cheap.

"natural cures should be prime"
So, vaccination, which uses the natural immune system is a good thing right? Or are you contradicting yourself?

"Science seems eager to change, modify and engineer our natural resources without consideration of their long term effect."
More slander.
What evidence can you offer for this? After all the reason for the changes is usually well documented (in the way that the change from willow bark to aspirin is explained by the reasons I gave earlier).

"many things eaten taken in high doses will cause cancer.
such as Fluoride which is added to our drinking water and food so governments can close dental facilities."
If you are going to go on about fluoride please start another thread so that cobblers doesn't get mixed up with the other cobblers.
In any event, don't cite pages which say things like "Even at the level they use to fluoridate your public water supply, usually at the rate of about 1 part fluoride for every million parts of water (1 ppm) by weight, it causes severe problems" because that's obvious nonsense.
If it did, we would all be dead.

There's discussion of this gibberish elsewhere, for example here.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=25867.0
and it doesn't achieve anything to go over it again.

Incidentally, did it occur to you that people chose governments which fluoridate water in order that they (and their kids) suffer less from tooth decay.

"I chew cloves if I have a tooth ache "
If there was more fluoride in your drinking water, perhaps you wouldn't need the cloves.
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« Reply #36 on: 10/10/2010 11:43:10 »
again...
In the new study, conducted on behalf of The Globe and Mail, researchers from Statistics Canada compared the tooth decay rates in the provinces of Ontario, which has Canada's highest fluoridation rate, and Quebec, which has the lowest. Using data on more than 5,000 people, the researchers found no clinically significant difference.

The Healing Effects of Forests
Forests -- and other natural, green settings -- can reduce stress, improve moods, reduce anger and aggressiveness and increase overall happiness. Forest visits may also strengthen our immune system by increasing the activity and number of natural killer cells that destroy cancer cells.

bottle that!
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« Reply #37 on: 10/10/2010 12:03:06 »

"such as the killer sacrin "
Has saccharin ever killed anyone?
If not, then you are talking utter bollocks.

The researchers note that the findings gibe with other emerging evidence—including a study published last month in the American Heart Association's journal, Circulation—that shows people who down diet drinks are at a higher risk for obesity  and metabolic syndrome (a medley of medical problems such as abdominal fat, high blood pressure and insulin resistance that puts people at risk for heart disease and diabetes).

please remember doctors are human and make mistakes.

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« Reply #38 on: 10/10/2010 21:43:09 »
"people who down diet drinks are at a higher risk for obesity"

So what?
People who down diet drinks are quite often on diets.
People on diets tend to be overweight.
people who are overweight tend to suffer from metabolic syndrome.

Anyway. I'm still waiting for the evidence that saccharin ever killed anyone.

Also, if you don't think fluoride is good for teeth then it doesn't make sense to say "Fluoride which is added to our drinking water and food so governments can close dental facilities."
If it didn't work they couldn't close the dentists down.
And you forgot to include this quote from the same page you cited.
"All of Canada's dental associations and its national health agency, Health Canada, officially endorse water fluoridation. In response to the Globe and Mail report, Health Canada immediately sought to cast doubt on the study, pointing out that it failed to assess individual fluoride intake and correlate that with cavity rates."
The best evidence seems to me to suggest that, since many people use fluoride containing toothpaste, the effect of adding it to the water is less significant than it used to be.

Obviously, I can't bottle a trip to the forest.
But if you buy aspirin cheaply rather than wasting time and effort getting willow bark and chewing on it (in order to get a less effective remedy with worse side effects) then you will have more time and money left to go on vacation.
What did you think your point was?

It's not as if a bottle of cloves transports me to the Spice Islands or whatever.
It's an argument in favour of planting trees in parks (which I wholeheartedly support); it's not an argument in favour of eating them.
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« Reply #39 on: 11/10/2010 06:53:54 »
"people who down diet drinks are at a higher risk for obesity"

So what?
People who down diet drinks are quite often on diets.
People on diets tend to be overweight.
people who are overweight tend to suffer from metabolic syndrome.
I think you assume too much.

Quote
Anyway. I'm still waiting for the evidence that saccharin ever killed anyone.
the diseases it causes are life threatening.

Quote
Also, if you don't think fluoride is good for teeth then it doesn't make sense to say "Fluoride which is added to our drinking water and food so governments can close dental facilities."
If it didn't work they couldn't close the dentists down.
And you forgot to include this quote from the same page you cited.
"All of Canada's dental associations and its national health agency, Health Canada, officially endorse water fluoridation. In response to the Globe and Mail report, Health Canada immediately sought to cast doubt on the study, pointing out that it failed to assess individual fluoride intake and correlate that with cavity rates."
The best evidence seems to me to suggest that, since many people use fluoride containing toothpaste, the effect of adding it to the water is less significant than it used to be.
with all doubt being cast on reports, studies and research, without reports,studies or research to back up the doubt. what do you think?
Quote
Obviously, I can't bottle a trip to the forest.
give it time...
Quote
But if you buy aspirin cheaply rather than wasting time and effort getting willow bark and chewing on it (in order to get a less effective remedy with worse side effects) then you will have more time and money left to go on vacation.
I actually don't take aspirin but if there was an option/choice which there is not, I may prefer the natural garden variety and so may many others.
Quote
What did you think your point was?
choice, why do we have to have a processed version if we can grow it naturally ourselves.
Quote

It's not as if a bottle of cloves transports me to the Spice Islands or whatever.
It's an argument in favour of planting trees in parks (which I wholeheartedly support); it's not an argument in favour of eating them.



We find natural cures etc but still we feel the need to synthesise and manufacture/make the components for these cures.
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« Reply #40 on: 11/10/2010 07:07:02 »
 we should have priority finding ways to eliminate cancer causing agents

http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php/article/cancer-of-the-chudleigh-valley
« Last Edit: 11/10/2010 11:08:44 by echochartruse »
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« Reply #41 on: 11/10/2010 18:02:05 »
Quote
We find natural cures etc but still we feel the need to synthesise and manufacture/make the components for these cures.
     

With respect BC has answered this point many times as to why. I am puzzled as to why you cannot seem to accept the explanations as to why, and still seem to be insisting that the natural way is better/more effective/preferable.
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« Reply #42 on: 11/10/2010 19:42:26 »
"with all doubt being cast on reports, studies and research, without reports,studies or research to back up the doubt. what do you think?"
Like I said.
The best evidence seems to me to suggest that, since many people use fluoride containing toothpaste, the effect of adding it to the water is less significant than it used to be.

I'm still waiting for evidence that saccharin causes disease.

Re http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php/article/cancer-of-the-chudleigh-valley
Something like one person in 4 gets cancer so the grouping reported is nothing exceptional.
« Last Edit: 11/10/2010 19:44:02 by Bored chemist »
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« Reply #43 on: 11/10/2010 23:24:21 »
"with all doubt being cast on reports, studies and research, without reports,studies or research to back up the doubt. what do you think?"
Like I said.
The best evidence seems to me to suggest that, since many people use fluoride containing toothpaste, the effect of adding it to the water is less significant than it used to be.

I'm still waiting for evidence that saccharin causes disease.

Re http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php/article/cancer-of-the-chudleigh-valley
Something like one person in 4 gets cancer so the grouping reported is nothing exceptional.


If you read further reports about Tasmanian cancers you will find that there were (not sure of present figure) 3 people from 5 in the entire world with a very rare cancer in an area where there are very high incidence of all other cancers including the Tasmanian Devil's rare and contagious evolving cancer.
that to me is significant.

what i am saying is Saccharin is unnecessary and found to have caused diseases which are fatal. Why 'create' a manufactured synthesised product that is detrimental to our health just because someone or many may think that overweight.......
Quote from: Bored chemist

"people who down diet drinks are at a higher risk for obesity"

So what?
People who down diet drinks are quite often on diets.
People on diets tend to be overweight.
people who are overweight tend to suffer from metabolic syndrome.

and you may feel the way to manage these people's health problem is to at least let them feel they are doing good for their health by 'downing' a synthesised man made version of their worst enemy which has been proven to cause fatal diseases.

In regard to fluoride... you say it is less effective in our water, so why do it? especially if the proven negative effects are worse than the cure.? once the governments agree to introduce fluoride they think they can balance their debt caused by the introduction by closing the dental health care services.
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« Reply #44 on: 12/10/2010 07:23:46 »
"that to me is significant."
Then learn about statistics.

"and you may feel the way to manage these people's health problem is to at least let them feel they are doing good for their health by 'downing' a synthesised man made version of their worst enemy which has been proven to cause fatal diseases."
Or I may think that they are better off taking drugs that have been tested and found to work and to be cost effective.
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« Reply #45 on: 12/10/2010 07:28:06 »
and some may think it best to find the cancer causing agent and deal with it so we don't need drugs.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/01/080128-devils-cancer.html
flame retardant found in Rare Tasmanian Devils.

here researchers find flame retardant in the Tassie Devils which they suspect is causing their rare cancer.
They assume the flame retardant is being digested when they eat mattresses that may have been dumped.! [???]
The researchers for some reason forget to mention the GM fire retardant mono culture crop of trees which cover a very large area where these cancers are occurring.

and then with the toxic cancer causing chemicals found in the devils, some assume it can't be those chemicals causing their cancer. [???]

Quote
Hamish McCallum, professor of wildlife research at the University of Tasmania, said it's unlikely the chemicals caused the devils' disease.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2010 07:52:06 by echochartruse »
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« Reply #46 on: 12/10/2010 07:59:47 »
Quote
and some may think it best to find the cancer causing agent and deal with it so we don't need drugs.
   

Celery parsnips and coffee are all carcinogens, does not mean they cause cancer.


Cancer is a natural occurrence in the body, it is not soly caused by one thing or another. Usually the body deals with cancer just fine, cells repair themselves or apoptose, when they don't cancer can arise.
Cancer can happen even if you live in a bubble with no exposure to any carcinogens whatsoever.
I really do recommend you read up on the biology of cancer.
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« Reply #47 on: 12/10/2010 20:21:25 »
OK, this is now getting silly.
What in the name of all that's Holy is " the GM fire retardant mono culture crop of trees" mean to mean?
While we are at it, while I support Echochartruse's right to eat what he likes in the same way that I choose to drink more whisk(e)y than is probably good for me, I think we need to remember that this is a scientific website so let's make a few things clear.
His apparent preference for willow bark rather than aspirin seems to be based on the idea that natural =good and artificial=bad.
That's nonsesense.
The most toxic man-made materials are the nerve gases- they typically take a miligrams or so to kill you.
The Natural toxins include things like BTX which is about a thousand times more toxic.
Fundamentally, death is natural so it is absurd to think that natural things must be good for you.

Willow bark works as a painkiller because it contains salicylic acid. The same salicylic acid is produced in the body from aspirin. and it's what gets rid of headaches.
However, the free acid is rather toxic at high concentrations- in particular the phenolic hydroxy group damages the proteins in the stomach. With aspirin, those hydroxy groups are blocked (by sticking an acetyl group on them). That reduces the damage it does in the stomach. The acetyl groups are broken off in the body, but at that stage the free acid has been diluted down and causes less trouble.

So, not only is it an observable fact that aspirin is less toxic than the free salicylic acid found in willow bark, but we even know why this is the case.
On the other hand Echochartruse prefers something which is
more toxic,
less reliable (because the concentration in the bark is rather variable) and
more expensive.
It's his decision- but it's hard to for me to see it as rational.

Incidentally, re the fire retardants in the devils. So what? A while back Americans were not fit for human consumption because their DDT levels were too high. But they lived without any noticeable ill effects.
Also it's probably important to look at what the Nat Geog article which he cited actually says.
"But we're not toxicologists; we need experts to look at the data and get some meaning."
"we found PBDPE in an animal" means that we have very sensitive methods for measuring chemicals; it doesn't mean that the chemical is doing anything.

Also
"It's a really, really strange tumor. All the tumor cells in all the devils are essentially a clone—they are all derived from one individual," McCallum said.

"The event that caused that original mutation to malignancy will never be known," he continued.

"It happened a minimum of ten years ago"

"STOP PRESS"
Death toll from saccharin remains stubbornly at zero!

« Last Edit: 12/10/2010 20:34:21 by Bored chemist »
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« Reply #48 on: 13/10/2010 00:11:48 »
hey you are assuming again.
did I say?..
Quote
His apparent preference for willow bark rather than aspirin seems to be based on the idea that natural =good and artificial=bad.
No I didn't.

What I am saying is if there is a free and naturally available product that is proven to work, then we should be given the info for a choice to use it if we want. we should be told about about all forms of medications without discrimination.
If science feels the need to manufacture/create the component found in the natural form because it is proven to be effective so their pharmaceutical company can control and make a profit from a remedy found in our gardens, then we should be well informed about our choices and the positive effects and negative effects of all natural and synthetic remedies. to make their own informed choice.
 
Aspirin causes internal bleeding, can kill a dog or cat, among other problems, yet it is freely available in the grocery store without mention of this and other bad effects of the drug (larger packaging is required for this, i would imagine). Ibuprofen and some pain killers have now been taken off the grocery shelves, even though the bad effects have been known for decades.

Does science have a conscience? Is science more concerned with getting funding to operate at the hands of multi-corporate rather than finding cures or identifying known cures freely available?
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« Reply #49 on: 13/10/2010 02:51:52 »
Saccharin?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080210183902.htm artificial sweetners cause weight gain
Quote
Authors Susan Swithers, PhD, and Terry Davidson, PhD, surmised that by breaking the connection between a sweet sensation and high-calorie food, the use of saccharin changes the body's ability to regulate intake.

"The data clearly indicate that consuming a food sweetened with no-calorie saccharin can lead to greater body-weight gain and adiposity than would consuming the same food sweetened with a higher-calorie sugar," the authors wrote.

Quote
Monsanto got their start in 1901 selling saccharin to a Coca-Cola addicted public. Questions arose about the safety of saccharin, and the U.S. Department of Agriculture tried to ban it. They failed in their effort against the Monsanto lobby machine.



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/04/980422065353.htm
NTP said in one notice it is "especially interested in obtaining additional relevant scientific information in support of or against the petition to delist saccharin" because the three reviews split in their recommendations. Two scientific reviews favored removing saccharin from the Report but an October 30-31 advisory panel -- the NTP Board of Scientific Counselors Subcommittee for the Report on Carcinogens -- recommended by a narrow margin that the sweetener continue to be listed as an "anticipated" carcinogen.

Saccharin has been banned in Canada for decades after scientifically proving it causes bladder cancer. Now science says it causes cancer in rats but that is irrelevant to humans!

http://nutrihealth.in/2008/10/worst-food-additives/

just because it is on the market doesn't mean it is safe - just because it is a natural product doesn't mean it is safe.

for those who care, read this.. all of this. Please listen to the doctors on the video especially.
http://www.bonfirehealth.com/our-doctors/dr-paul/posts/the-diet-soda-death-trap

see also       www.dorway.com
« Last Edit: 13/10/2010 03:25:07 by echochartruse »
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