[JimBob]

About Dawn, Michael?

The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

[JimBob]

quote:Originally posted by science_guy

quote:If everything has to have a beginning who created god did he just pop up from nothing.

I dont believe anybody has answered this yet.

There have been Gods since before history was written.

I think George is just trying to cause trouble [] [] [] - let's assume God doesn't lie!

quote:
God transends dimensions, so therefore he has more than one dimension of time.  Assuming that he only has even 2 dimensions of time, that is still sufficient for this.  with one dimension of time, its a timeline.  With two, its a "timesquare" of sorts.  with the two directions, there are an infinite amount of directions of time to go, and therefore he has no creation event.

there are two different creationist theroys.

1) young earth creationist.  They say that earth was literally created in 6 days, along with the universe and all other things, including our galaxy.  That cannot be so, because our galaxy would have to be coming from a white hole, and that is obviously not true.

2) Old earth creationist.  This is my belief.  Earth is how old we believe it is, 4.6 billion years, and all scientific facts that we have found are true.  The Record of Nature and the Word of God are both true, since God created them both, and he cannot lie.  The only problem is human interpretation. Days, as we call them are 24 hours long, and the day metaphor is how long it seemed to God.  Since God can trancend dimensions, time is irrelevent to him.  

It's behind door # 2, as you also believe.

As for WHY I believe, It is a lot of different things, but one of reasons is the singularity. As I understand it, Big Bang theory says that the universe was created from a single point of nothing. The math for it works very well going back until that instant of the bang itself. There the math falls apart. It is the absence of any reason for the big bang to occur that causes many people to find the causative effect to be God. Thus, the reasoning goes, god created the universe.

This is just one of the many reasons I believe in God. I would need to give you a life history for me to try to convey all of the reasons.

As for you, let me propose an test for you to perform. Try living without any religious or spiritual actions for 6 months, then with them for six months. Be rigorous in what you think and do. Then at the end of the year figure out which six months were the best for you.

Decide for yourself. The subject is not going to be resolved in this forum or in our collective minds. It is a personal experience and decission that everyone makes for themselves. My personal decision after 32 years was that God was real. Yours may be different.

Good luck.



The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

[science_guy]

Very good post!

Im posting hugh ross's site, http://www.reasons.org/, where I learn all my arguments.  He can explain things for you better than I can.

Also, If you happen to live near L.A. County (Sorry U.K. Residents[]), you can go to his skeptics forum on certain dates at Sierra Madre Congregational Curch.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by JimBob
As for WHY I believe, It is a lot of different things, but one of reasons is the singularity. As I understand it, Big Bang theory says that the universe was created from a single point of nothing. The math for it works very well going back until that instant of the bang itself. There the math falls apart. It is the absence of any reason for the big bang to occur that causes many people to find the causative effect to be God. Thus, the reasoning goes, god created the universe.

This leaves a number of problems.

Firstly, the Big Bang is merely a hypothesis, and no doubt will be subject to much modification at some future time.  There are cosmological models that do not include a Big Bang, and although they are not the most fashionable of hypothesis, but no-one has conclusively demonstrated them to be wrong.

Secondly, your argument assumes only that God existed at the point of the initial conditions, but not that He exists today.  In fact, your hypothesis seems to implicitly say that whether God does or does not exist today, He certainly does not play any part in the cosmos today.

Thirdly, and this is the biggest problem with trying to mix God and science, using God in such an argument is a cop-out – it may give a a possible reason why we cannot know more about what happened, but in doing so it implicitly slams the door in the face of any investigative scientist who is trying to extend the frontiers of knowledge beyond that point where you say 'beyond here lies God'.

quote:
This is just one of the many reasons I believe in God. I would need to give you a life history for me to try to convey all of the reasons.

As for you, let me propose an test for you to perform. Try living without any religious or spiritual actions for 6 months, then with them for six months. Be rigorous in what you think and do. Then at the end of the year figure out which six months were the best for you.

Decide for yourself. The subject is not going to be resolved in this forum or in our collective minds. It is a personal experience and decission that everyone makes for themselves. My personal decision after 32 years was that God was real. Yours may be different.

What you are suggesting is that a belief in God has an effect.  I never doubted that a belief in God was real, the question is whether God himself is real, not whether the belief is real.

Ofcourse, you might argue that from a pragmatic point of view, if the belief in God has a substantial placebo effect, then giving the patient a placebo is a as valid a cure for his ills as giving him a real drug (it may even sometimes be a better cure).  This is the dilemma often with creating pragmatic fictions, where the fiction has a positive personal or social value, but is nonetheless a fiction – do you continue the fiction because it has a positive effect, or do you undermine the fiction because of a commitment to physical truth, even if that truth may actually be socially or personally undesirable?

George

[JimBob]

I am not arguing anything. I am stating opinion, as all post concerning the question in play seemingly do.

I am describing a subjective experience, not an external fact. Eschatology (or the absence thereof) can be discussed at profoundly excruciating leingth without resolution. Logic's "home" is not in this discussion; logic obfuscates a straight up or down answer to the question at hand.

The question before us is as follows: (tony6789: 9 Feb, '06, this thread.)

quote:Could God actually be real i mean i am a Christian but every piece of science we have today say he is not real. That raises the big quustion is He REAL

(bold is mine)

Can this be proven by Science?
No.

Does this mean there is no God?
No. Science just cannot prove it.

Will discussion resolve this?
No.

Can a human being resolve this question?
Individually and alone only, from their own perspective.



The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

[tony6789 (OP)]

big bang theory is more than a theory. it discribes accurately the..ummm...darn it! what waz it called!> ummm the thing where stars or galaxies r red shifted. and another thing this is ganna go a bit off topic. but lets just say the Bible is exact accurate. it gives hints of "people from the sky" they say that they came in "BIg structes" or in other words aleins visting them in U.F.O.s(spaceships) soif the Bible is accurate then that means for a faCT THAT ALEINS R REAL!  ha! take that u strong belivers!

NEVER! underestimate youth

[daveshorts]

Just some definitions of terms:

hypothesis - an idea with no support by evidence

theory - a hypothesis with supporting evidence

law - something that historically had lots of supporting evidence, and for reasons largely historical is considered important, if not necessarily right.

What is a law is jsut random, so scientifically everything is a theory, they just have varying amount of supporting evidence  

[tony6789 (OP)]

i think every 1 knows those terms...at least i hope...


NEVER! underestimate youth

[science_guy]

quote:it gives hints of "people from the sky" they say that they came in "BIg structes" or in other words aleins visting them in U.F.O.s(spaceships) soif the Bible is accurate then that means for a faCT THAT ALEINS R REAL! ha! take that u strong belivers!

That is the problem of human interpretation.  What the bible is talking about could be anything, from advanced technology that was lost that humans had (atlantas maybe) or somthing like angels from heaven.

besides, Nobody has ever proven that Aliens aren't real.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

[Laith]

quote:Originally posted by science_guy

besides, Nobody has ever proven that Aliens aren't real.

I think no one can ever prove that aliens aren't real. If anything, the only thing we can prove is that they do exist.

Laith

[CL]

Jesus Said, take the evidence of which he has dne and has been layed before you, believe or dont, If you doubt in God, Then your mind is Lost, for the belief in God can be simple and can be Hard, It is said the bible was writtin by Man jesuses dicples, Moses and his people and was enterily inspired by God, Do not look upon the termoils that happen in life, for example some innocent childs murder, God is Fair and Loves all regardless, He gave us freewill. and sometimes ones choices affect others for example the rapist chose to rape the girl now the girl has to pay for his action as well as he will, take heed, but If that girl chooses to accept God and sees it was God that saved her from death, do you who have ittle faith still not believe? Many Women who are raped are killed, you talk about why does he not pervent somethings from happning  he prevented her from being slain, Now that same girl knows what it is like, and is more powerful then ever inspiring other rape victims to stay strong, and her words and einspiration has brought unto her the light of God, it is said with all that you ask of God  in his will it will be anwserd for every question you ask it will be anwserd, and jesus said layed unto us and the quest to discover gods mystery you must keep your eyes wide open and ears to to see the anwsers he has brought to you, and Listen well to the wisse teachings before you the Holy bible, written by Man inspired by God. Still in disbelief?
Jesus said take hold of the evidence of him and his doings and believe or dont, when so many share their stories, for a Woman casted into a dream saw a Man she once knew in years Past in front of her, and a voice said It will not be a boy but you will be happy either way, then years later everything that happned in that dream happned. accptthe evidence of God Or dont God left that choice to you., and the person who said "God is real Idiots, I tell you this My friend. you say you are a christian, Jesus said Love all and judge not, do not bee nticed by their unknowing, yfoor they are still lost in darkness and only they can go to and through the path to God, and you who believe must be their light so that they may see through the path

[gecko]

are you people serious?

get a job.

[science_guy]

Who are you asking?

If you are asking the people who believe in God, like myself, some do have a job, some have interest in science, like myself, and others are trying to do their job by preaching here.

If you are talking to the ones who dont, just polightly state your point, and they will decide whether to believe or not.

This topic was made to ask the point if God is real, and people should believe what they want to believe.  I may be wrong, but in my convictions and experiences, God is real to me.  And I sincerely hope that you will as well.  But i will not attempt to push it upon you, or make you feel guilty, and i will not aggressively make my point upon any of you.

Just because we post on this kind of topic doesn't mean we dont have a job.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

[gecko]

you are taking me way too literal. my attempt to lighten up the mood of this thread has now failed. brevity is the sould of wit, but it always just gets me in trouble.

"get a job" to me is a very broad term similar to "get a life"...that is to say- just start doing something more important than this. its ironic because i am here too.

this time, by "are you people serious?" i actually mean all sides of this argument. everyone is talking in circles, when the faith people question the logic peoples faith they cant stick to logic to defend themselves, and when the logic people question the faith peoples logic they just profess even stronger faith. what a load. lets cure some diseases and think some new thoughts. not bicker about imaginary friends.

[tony6789 (OP)]

did god ever have a life???

NEVER! underestimate youth

[science_guy]

I logically try to profess my faith []

And about God ever having a life, He does.  It's watching us.  And I dont think of God as an imaginary friend, but omnipresent and omnipotent.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

[tony6789 (OP)]

waz he ever "mortal"

NEVER! underestimate youth

[science_guy]

well, That is a good question.  As the father or the Holy spirit, no.  But the third part of the trinity is the Son, Jesus.  he came as mortal and died for us, redeeming us for our sins.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

[tony6789 (OP)]

ok it has come to my attention that there r certain...uhhh....writings that were in the original Bible were cut out as the Church deemed them "un worthy of the bible" things that the Church wouldn't like 2 mention any1 have ideas what these writongs could be?

NEVER! underestimate youth

[leesw]

Just a few websites to look over for this:

newbielink:http://www.doesgodexist.org [nonactive]

and

newbielink:http://www.illustramedia.com/umolinfo.htm [nonactive]

newbielink:http://www.doesgodexist.org [nonactive]