[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer

Did I personally call you ignorant? No. I'm calling the people who say incompetant bull like that. Read, and don't misunderstand what someone is saying. It's gets you a lot further in life.

Yep.  I'm pretty sure you did.  Did you not make the following statement?

quote:God is just an idea, to control the "stupid" ones.  

You may not have said "Hey, Carolyn.  You're ignorant.  But what you basically said was people who believe in and worship God are stupid.  I'm not going to argue whether God exists or not.  I don't have to.  I know he does and don't need scientific proof.  That's called faith.  He has proven his existence to me time and time again.  What prompted me to post at all was your arrogance in calling me and all christians ignorant.  I would never call someone ignorant/stupid because they have different beliefs.  Whether you believe in God or not is between you and God, or you and Satan, or you and Count Dracula.  It is not my place to judge you.

quote:
There is no such thing as being too harsh on religion. Religion is pointless, you don't need some kind of cult to make sure you are living a good life, in the way God wants you too, you can do it yourself without the help of someone else.

I often question religion and am often harsh regarding it.  Religion is NOT God.  Religion is man made. I think alot of people take their religion and wear it like a banner.  Something to say "I'm better than you, I'm holier than you.  I'm going to Heaven, you're going to Hell".  That's not what God wants.  My opinion is that God is far too big and too powerful to be confined to one religion.

quote:
I may not believe in God, but I live a good life, as any other teenager I do mess up, but I don't do immature things like: drinking, smoking, doing drugs, or having sex before marriage. You can call those morals all you want, but they are rules for myself. You can live a good life without the help of someone else. Makes you look stupid to have someone else tell you how to live your life. Live life to the fullest, but stay within the boundaries of the law.

Further more, religion = for the idiots.

Glad you are living a good life.  Who taught you?

Carolyn

[GOD]

Hello, God here. Lets try to be nice and polite shall we ?

I know I do not exist and I will not proselytise the fact that I do not also, and so I know Religion is man made, just like me !

Each to their own. It's the militants I don't like, nor the fundamentalists and extremists. At least most of the time the people who do believe in me are nice, though, I think they could use their energies believing in the non-exsitant me for the better. Don't go to church, go visit a neigbour instead.

Peace and Harmony to all.

It's tough not existing !!

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
Faith? I laugh at faith. Faith is the utmost idiotic idea to be thought of. Let's believe in something that can't be physically proven, wether it be a mythical creature, or God (in this case).

So prove that the Earth exists, or that the Sun exists.  You cannot do so without first having faith in your own perception – which itself is unprovable.

It is totally reasonable that one should work with the minimum of axioms, but one cannot work with zero axioms, and those axioms must be taken on faith.

quote:
You're still misinterpreting what I am saying. The idea of God is to control ones who are less fortunate of knowledge, ones who can't control their lives without a higher being.

To believe in God, means you are an incompetant fool, you HAVE to have someone/something to control your life, because you can't.

That is the basic idea of God.

Might I suggest that different people have different reasons for believing in God, and to tell another person why they personally believe in God is somewhat presumptuous.

There is another matter when one talks of the purpose of religion, since religion is a social rather than a personal matter, and thus one can discuss how religion functions at a social level quite legitimately.

quote:
Just so you know, life is science, and that is how we live, by science, not faith. Because faith can't be proven, as much as God can't.

Just so you know, life is not science – science is the study of life, which is something completely different.

quote:
I taught myself to be the way I am. I can control myself without the need of someone else. Sounds hard for teenager, doesn't it? Well for me, no. I don't need to believe in some fictional idea to make my life better, and easier.

That you have no need to believe in God is fine, neither do I – but to say that you can control yourself is in effect to say that you are out of control.  Society depends for its good order that people can control each other, for a person outside the control of society is a psychopath.  This is nothing to do with God, but it is to do with allowing others to influence your life, just as you would hope to have an influence on the lives of others; and so it disallows that the only person controlling you is you.

quote:
Religion is just a counterpart to God, or whatever any other religion calls him/her/it.

And if he is so big and powerful. Why doesn't he come to EVERY human in this world and tell every single one of us, he is real. Your idea of him being so powerful is inept, you have no truth behind him, just a fictional book and an idea.

A religion is a political entity, just as a nation is a political entity.  Yes, religions create myths, just as nations create myths – that is why every good patriot believes there country is right, and views history from there own particular perspective (and much of the Bible is nothing other than the historical folklore of the Jewish people, which was subsequently inherited by the Christians and the Muslims).

In that respect, one can in some ways view God in the same light as the Stars and Stripes (or, for us, the Union Jack – except the Brits don't pay as much head to the Union Jack as the Americans do to the Stars and Stripes).  What power God actually represents is something else, but the important issue for religion is that it creates a focal point for the religion, just as the flag can create a focal point for nationalism.  And, just as many people may imbue God with powers others may question he has, so too many people, while maybe not imbuing the flag itself with such powers, will think of their Government as bordering on the all powerful, as well as being all good.

You might also note that the decline of religion has fairly much mirrored the rise of nationalism – this is not in my view mere coincidence, because they both perform the same social role.

This is the role that religion uses God for, but the fact that religion uses God in this manner does not mean that each individual uses God in this manner – once something is created, it tends to have a life other than was intended by its creator, and this is just as true when the creation is nothing but an abstract idea.

George

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
The sun, and earth are proven. Basic science. We're on the earth this minute aren't we?

Prove it!

I don;t merely mean tell me that you are seeing/feeling it – I mean prove it without resorting to your senses – senses can be fooled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

quote:
The word solipsism (Latin: solus, alone + ipse, self) is used for two related yet distinct concepts:

• An epistemological position that one's own perceptions are the only things that can be known with certainty. The nature of the external world — that is, the source of one's perceptions — therefore cannot be conclusively known; it may not even exist. This is also called external world skepticism.


• A metaphysical belief that the universe is entirely the creation of one's own mind. Thus, in a sense, the belief that nothing 'exists' outside of one's own mind.

Is solipsism falsifiable?

According to one argument, no experiment (by a given solipsist A) can be designed to disprove solipsism (to the satisfaction of that solipsist A). Solipsism is therefore said to be unfalsifiable in the sense in which Karl Popper used the word. A solipsistic viewpoint held by a particular individual is unfalsifiable only to that individual, however. Any other person B might by introspection (cogito, ergo sum) conclude that he or she (B) does in fact exist and therefore that A is proven wrong (though B might symmetrically doubt whether A exists, and therefore would not have disproven solipsism per se, only solipsism by A). Even though B has proven A wrong, there is no way for B to validly convince A to abandon solipsism, since A doubts B's very existence, let alone B's experiences or experimental results.

Brain in a vat

A thought-experiment related to solipsism, although in principle distinct (for one thing, it posits a real mad scientist, brain, and vat, which a metaphysical solipsist would dispute), is the brain in a vat. The person performing the thought-experiment considers the possibility that they are trapped within some utterly unknowable reality, much like that illustrated in the movie The Matrix. A mad scientist could be sending the same impulses to one's brain in a vat that one's brain (understood to be that of a person in the "real world") might receive, thereby creating "the world" as one knows it from the mad scientist's program. Yet, for one's brain in the vat, that "world" would obviously not be "real." This raises the possibility that everything one thinks or knows is illusion. Or, at the least, that one cannot know with any certainty whether one's brain is in the "real world" or in a vat receiving impulses that would create an equivalent consciousness— or even if there is a real world, mad scientist, brain, or vat (all experience could be simply a never-ending dream).

Now – what do you think – can you really prove beyond all doubt, without any act of faith, that the Earth and the Sun really do exist?

quote:
I do control myself, no one else does. No one is in my brain, controlling my every thought, and move. Only you can control yourself, no one else.

Aside from the 'brain in the vat' thought experiment – this is still an incomplete truth.

You respond and react to the outside world - you obey laws – you do things that other people may ask or demand of you – in this way, they have a control over you. and more subtly (although not without controversy) you might respond to pheromones, and thus be controlled in that way (but pheromones are merely another way in which you respond and are controlled by environmental stimuli, many of which are social or interpersonal in nature).

One of the interesting paradoxes in science is that science does not allow for free will.  Science assumes that all events are a consequence of some cause, and thus your own actions, although they may appear to be an act of free will, is itself a consequence of some external cause.  To assume otherwise would be to assume there is a consequence without a cause, which is unscientific – is it not?.

quote:
God is non-existant, because nothing you do, proves his existance. Main reason why I replied to this topic.

Lack of proof of existence is not the same as proof of a lack of existence.

George

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
How is it not the same? If you can't prove something, then there is a lack of existence. How ignorant are you? If you can't prove something to be real, then how is it real?

I would refrain from calling me ignorant until you have read and answered my point with regard to the 'brain in the vat' thought experiment, or any experiment that can definitively prove that what you sense is a real sensation.  You are arguing from just the same bigoted blind faith that you accuse others of.  Yes, I have faith in my senses, because I have no better alternative – but it is not blind faith – I do recognise that it is faith, and it is conceivable that my senses are wrong.

quote:
How can your sense touch/feel be fooled when you feel something you can feel it. It is unlogical to say your sense of touch/feel can be fooled when in reality it can't. Senses such as taste, smell, and hearing can be fooled, but touch/feel cannot be fooled. If you feel the rays of the sun hitting you, it is a small proof to say the sun is real. If you touch the ground of the earth, and you feel it, it's real. Don't be stupid to those senses.

Lets start with:

http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/en/pain/microsite/medicine2.html

quote:
After amputation of a limb, an amputee continues to have an awareness of it and to experience sensations from it. These phantom limb sensations are also present in children born without a limb, suggesting that perception of our limbs is 'hard-wired' into our brain and that sensations from the limbs become mapped onto these brain networks as we develop.
If phantom limb sensations are normal then so too, alas, is phantom limb pain. This occurs in a majority of those who lose their limbs. (1) In fact, limbs do not need to be lost; it also occurs in conditions in which the brain is disconnected from the body, such as peripheral nerve injuries and after spinal cord injury, when an area becomes insentient (and usually paralysed).

Now you can ask how can you have sensations from a limb that is not there.  But it is clear that such sensations can exist.  So would you then suggest it is impossible to fool the senses.

It is also not that difficult to convince someone they are feeling something that is not actually there while they are under hypnosis.

George

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
Put it this way: If was personally talking to you in person, and I said there is a horse right beside me. Would you believe it's existance? If you can't see it, smell it, touch it, hear it, or taste it, then there is a lack of existance there.

I would at the first instance assume that you were suffering some form of psychosis – although ofcourse, it is possible that it is I who is suffering the psychosis.  In general, it will be left to a third party to decide between the two (and one of the two of us will be taken away for treatment).  But the point is that such hallucination are perfectly possible, and perfectly natural.  To someone who is suffering such a psychosis, to them the horse is very real (or not very absent), and that is their absolute and unshakable belief.

quote:
 It's the same with God, you can't see him/her/it, smell him/her/it, touch him/her/it, hear him/her/it, or taste him/her/it, there is a lack of existance because the sense touch DOES NOT come in. And if there isn't any proof of him/her/it existance, then there is a lack of existance!

No, it is not the same at all.

If we are talking about visitations (people who claim to actual see a physical manifestation of God, or of a saint), then I would agree there is some similarity (although there still remains some difference also).

If someone tells me they believe something that cannot be directly sensed does exist, then there is no contradiction in the fact that I do not sense it.  Your argument earlier related to a horse that you fully expected me to be able to sense, and yet I did not sense.  No-one has yet come forward and suggested that I should be able to hear/see/smell God, so there is no contradiction in the fact that I do not smell/hear/see God.

George

[Carolyn]

George - Thank you so much for jumping in on this thread.  I was just far to annoyed to post any further.  Your intelligence continually amazes me, as well as your ability to communicate effectively without showing anger.

So George, If I was personally talking to you in person, I'd tell you that you are awesome!!!  Oh, yeah.  Welcome to the ignorance club.[^][]

Carolyn

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer

Annoyed? So you're telling me you got offended by a harmless post? Seriously. How old do you have to be to not get offended by something on the internet? Which in turn, you don't have to read, but do anyways. How mature of an adult, perhaps? That in itself is a form of ignorance. To get offended by something you don't have to read, but chose to read. Yes, emotional feelings are hard to control on your own, but you still chose to read my post even further, to make yourself even more annoyed. It's like reading a book on opinions, and then throwing it away because it annoyed you and you thought it was garbage of a book but kept on reading it when it still flustered you. It is something stupid to get annoyed over, and let your emotions fluster over something so small.

Actually what annoys me is that you are on a forum where there are people of all different races and beliefs.  People generally get along rather well here.  Instead of trying to understand or accept those differences you choose to call people names and remain argumentative.  Are you not able to have a discussion without being insulting? Somehow I doubt that you can.  Everything you've written is dripping with arrogance and disdain.  One more thing that annoys me is this.  You have the nerve to call people you know nothing about ignorant, when you are proof that the Florida School system has gone to hell in a handbasket.  Print it out, take it to your english teacher and ask him what he thinks.

Carolyn

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
Maybe this should be handled maturely, lets end this post with a sincere "Goodbye". We all have our opinions, and let it be at that, I don't believe in God, George is more intelligent than I am (maybe because of age and have learned more?), and Carolyn believes in God.

[]

Thank you for that.

Without being angry, or trying to be patronising, I would suggest the first thing you should learn is how little anyone (including me) can ever really know, and none of us should ever assume we have, the definitive answer to any question.

The second thing, having realised that, is to have a little tact in how you approach these things (it saves a lot of embarrassment and heartache all around at the end of the day).

Besides that, whether you choose to say goodbye (which, bye the way, actually is a corruption of “God be with ye”) is up to you, but you are more than welcome to stay.

You are right that it takes a brave and honest man to admit when they have made a mistake -and you have my respect for that.

George

[Carolyn]

quote:And I'm not much like other people, you have proven me wrong in many places (yes, being proved wrong is good for me, lets me learn even more), but still realize, I'm just a teenager with an opinion.

Steven - I sincerely apologise to you. I didn't mean to be so harsh, I was just trying to make a point.  Nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as we learn from them.  Saying that you are just a teenager implies that you aren't, for lack of a better word, valuable.  You are valuable and your opinion matters, whether I agree with you or not.

quote:My English teacher is an idiot to a major degree, and I have many people who will agree to that. But no I can have a normal discussion without being insulting. I do come off insulting because of how I feel about the ideas of God, religion, and science. Most people can't take something without getting offended. And I can much agree with you on the Florida School System, I have not fully lived this school system, but many others.

I'm pretty sure as an American yourself, you are in the same damn basket of idiots as we're all in. This whole country is full of ignorance, and it drips with it. We know nothing about respect, and I've grown up never getting respect, so I barely give any respect back to anyone who asks for it.

But as this is the internet, I have ALL rights to say what I want, and how I feel about something, wether I get nasty about it or not.

This just made me laugh.  I get the feeling you have a wonderful sense of humor, I just missed it.  Sorry I didn't see it.  I also live in Florida, and have one child in the FL school system, and one that's graduated and is off in college.  It is a challenge making sure my kids don't get behind the 8 ball when it comes to an education in Florida. You mentioned that you went to school outside of Florida too?  Have you had to take that awful FCAT yet?  If so, I hope you did well.  If not, good luck.

Steven - I'm sorry you haven't been shown respect.  I hope that changes for you very soon.

quote:I'll mistreat the use of the internet, I'll abuse the hell out of it. For my own purpose. You and everyone else on this forum, I can give less care for. Your opinions (some great at that) don't matter to me. No one that I don't know that isn't close to me is just an itch on the arm to me. Forums of this such don't matter, you people don't matter.

Yes, these forums do matter.  I've learned alot here and have made some good friends.  And although I've disagreed and argued with you, you should know that you and your opinion matter.  Hope you stick around and check out some other topics.

quote:
Maybe this should be handled maturely, lets end this post with a sincere "Goodbye". We all have our opinions, and let it be at that, I don't believe in God, George is more intelligent than I am (maybe because of age and have learned more?), and Carolyn believes in God.

Something we can agree on.  George is more intelligent than most of us.

Carolyn

[Non_Believer]

Thanks and I will stay here, maybe not posting much though.

[Non_Believer]

quote:Originally posted by Carolyn

quote:And I'm not much like other people, you have proven me wrong in many places (yes, being proved wrong is good for me, lets me learn even more), but still realize, I'm just a teenager with an opinion.

Steven - I sincerely apologise to you. I didn't mean to be so harsh, I was just trying to make a point.  Nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as we learn from them.  Saying that you are just a teenager implies that you aren't, for lack of a better word, valuable.  You are valuable and your opinion matters, whether I agree with you or not.

quote:My English teacher is an idiot to a major degree, and I have many people who will agree to that. But no I can have a normal discussion without being insulting. I do come off insulting because of how I feel about the ideas of God, religion, and science. Most people can't take something without getting offended. And I can much agree with you on the Florida School System, I have not fully lived this school system, but many others.

I'm pretty sure as an American yourself, you are in the same damn basket of idiots as we're all in. This whole country is full of ignorance, and it drips with it. We know nothing about respect, and I've grown up never getting respect, so I barely give any respect back to anyone who asks for it.

But as this is the internet, I have ALL rights to say what I want, and how I feel about something, wether I get nasty about it or not.

This just made me laugh.  I get the feeling you have a wonderful sense of humor, I just missed it.  Sorry I didn't see it.  I also live in Florida, and have one child in the FL school system, and one that's graduated and is off in college.  It is a challenge making sure my kids don't get behind the 8 ball when it comes to an education in Florida. You mentioned that you went to school outside of Florida too?  Have you had to take that awful FCAT yet?  If so, I hope you did well.  If not, good luck.

Steven - I'm sorry you haven't been shown respect.  I hope that changes for you very soon.

quote:I'll mistreat the use of the internet, I'll abuse the hell out of it. For my own purpose. You and everyone else on this forum, I can give less care for. Your opinions (some great at that) don't matter to me. No one that I don't know that isn't close to me is just an itch on the arm to me. Forums of this such don't matter, you people don't matter.

Yes, these forums do matter.  I've learned alot here and have made some good friends.  And although I've disagreed and argued with you, you should know that you and your opinion matter.  Hope you stick around and check out some other topics.

quote:
Maybe this should be handled maturely, lets end this post with a sincere "Goodbye". We all have our opinions, and let it be at that, I don't believe in God, George is more intelligent than I am (maybe because of age and have learned more?), and Carolyn believes in God.

Something we can agree on.  George is more intelligent than most of us.

Carolyn

Ugh, the FCAT, I have only one left to take, Science FCAT (I'm in 11th). I've lived in Texas, Missouri, North Carolina, and a native from Georgia. Florida is just about the worst place I have lived (there is probably worse, I just haven't experienced them). Respect with me has always been an issue, as in my beliefs, and just how I am (music and clothing). But the respect is coming around better than what it used to be. But I'll check out the other forums here and all. Gonna go watch some of that mindless TV that is out there, and work on a little homework. Good night.

[Non_Believer]

Bill Hicks - It Seems So Plausible:

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer

Did I personally call you ignorant? No. I'm calling the people who say incompetant bull like that. Read, and don't misunderstand what someone is saying. It's gets you a lot further in life.

Yep.  I'm pretty sure you did.  Did you not make the following statement?

quote:God is just an idea, to control the "stupid" ones.  

You may not have said "Hey, Carolyn.  You're ignorant.  But what you basically said was people who believe in and worship God are stupid.  I'm not going to argue whether God exists or not.  I don't have to.  I know he does and don't need scientific proof.  That's called faith.  He has proven his existence to me time and time again.  What prompted me to post at all was your arrogance in calling me and all christians ignorant.  I would never call someone ignorant/stupid because they have different beliefs.  Whether you believe in God or not is between you and God, or you and Satan, or you and Count Dracula.  It is not my place to judge you.

quote:
There is no such thing as being too harsh on religion. Religion is pointless, you don't need some kind of cult to make sure you are living a good life, in the way God wants you too, you can do it yourself without the help of someone else.

I often question religion and am often harsh regarding it.  Religion is NOT God.  Religion is man made. I think alot of people take their religion and wear it like a banner.  Something to say "I'm better than you, I'm holier than you.  I'm going to Heaven, you're going to Hell".  That's not what God wants.  My opinion is that God is far too big and too powerful to be confined to one religion.

quote:
I may not believe in God, but I live a good life, as any other teenager I do mess up, but I don't do immature things like: drinking, smoking, doing drugs, or having sex before marriage. You can call those morals all you want, but they are rules for myself. You can live a good life without the help of someone else. Makes you look stupid to have someone else tell you how to live your life. Live life to the fullest, but stay within the boundaries of the law.

Further more, religion = for the idiots.

Glad you are living a good life.  Who taught you?

Carolyn

[GOD]

Hello, God here. Lets try to be nice and polite shall we ?

I know I do not exist and I will not proselytise the fact that I do not also, and so I know Religion is man made, just like me !

Each to their own. It's the militants I don't like, nor the fundamentalists and extremists. At least most of the time the people who do believe in me are nice, though, I think they could use their energies believing in the non-exsitant me for the better. Don't go to church, go visit a neigbour instead.

Peace and Harmony to all.

It's tough not existing !!

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
Faith? I laugh at faith. Faith is the utmost idiotic idea to be thought of. Let's believe in something that can't be physically proven, wether it be a mythical creature, or God (in this case).

So prove that the Earth exists, or that the Sun exists.  You cannot do so without first having faith in your own perception – which itself is unprovable.

It is totally reasonable that one should work with the minimum of axioms, but one cannot work with zero axioms, and those axioms must be taken on faith.

quote:
You're still misinterpreting what I am saying. The idea of God is to control ones who are less fortunate of knowledge, ones who can't control their lives without a higher being.

To believe in God, means you are an incompetant fool, you HAVE to have someone/something to control your life, because you can't.

That is the basic idea of God.

Might I suggest that different people have different reasons for believing in God, and to tell another person why they personally believe in God is somewhat presumptuous.

There is another matter when one talks of the purpose of religion, since religion is a social rather than a personal matter, and thus one can discuss how religion functions at a social level quite legitimately.

quote:
Just so you know, life is science, and that is how we live, by science, not faith. Because faith can't be proven, as much as God can't.

Just so you know, life is not science – science is the study of life, which is something completely different.

quote:
I taught myself to be the way I am. I can control myself without the need of someone else. Sounds hard for teenager, doesn't it? Well for me, no. I don't need to believe in some fictional idea to make my life better, and easier.

That you have no need to believe in God is fine, neither do I – but to say that you can control yourself is in effect to say that you are out of control.  Society depends for its good order that people can control each other, for a person outside the control of society is a psychopath.  This is nothing to do with God, but it is to do with allowing others to influence your life, just as you would hope to have an influence on the lives of others; and so it disallows that the only person controlling you is you.

quote:
Religion is just a counterpart to God, or whatever any other religion calls him/her/it.

And if he is so big and powerful. Why doesn't he come to EVERY human in this world and tell every single one of us, he is real. Your idea of him being so powerful is inept, you have no truth behind him, just a fictional book and an idea.

A religion is a political entity, just as a nation is a political entity.  Yes, religions create myths, just as nations create myths – that is why every good patriot believes there country is right, and views history from there own particular perspective (and much of the Bible is nothing other than the historical folklore of the Jewish people, which was subsequently inherited by the Christians and the Muslims).

In that respect, one can in some ways view God in the same light as the Stars and Stripes (or, for us, the Union Jack – except the Brits don't pay as much head to the Union Jack as the Americans do to the Stars and Stripes).  What power God actually represents is something else, but the important issue for religion is that it creates a focal point for the religion, just as the flag can create a focal point for nationalism.  And, just as many people may imbue God with powers others may question he has, so too many people, while maybe not imbuing the flag itself with such powers, will think of their Government as bordering on the all powerful, as well as being all good.

You might also note that the decline of religion has fairly much mirrored the rise of nationalism – this is not in my view mere coincidence, because they both perform the same social role.

This is the role that religion uses God for, but the fact that religion uses God in this manner does not mean that each individual uses God in this manner – once something is created, it tends to have a life other than was intended by its creator, and this is just as true when the creation is nothing but an abstract idea.

George

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
The sun, and earth are proven. Basic science. We're on the earth this minute aren't we?

Prove it!

I don;t merely mean tell me that you are seeing/feeling it – I mean prove it without resorting to your senses – senses can be fooled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

quote:
The word solipsism (Latin: solus, alone + ipse, self) is used for two related yet distinct concepts:

• An epistemological position that one's own perceptions are the only things that can be known with certainty. The nature of the external world — that is, the source of one's perceptions — therefore cannot be conclusively known; it may not even exist. This is also called external world skepticism.


• A metaphysical belief that the universe is entirely the creation of one's own mind. Thus, in a sense, the belief that nothing 'exists' outside of one's own mind.

Is solipsism falsifiable?

According to one argument, no experiment (by a given solipsist A) can be designed to disprove solipsism (to the satisfaction of that solipsist A). Solipsism is therefore said to be unfalsifiable in the sense in which Karl Popper used the word. A solipsistic viewpoint held by a particular individual is unfalsifiable only to that individual, however. Any other person B might by introspection (cogito, ergo sum) conclude that he or she (B) does in fact exist and therefore that A is proven wrong (though B might symmetrically doubt whether A exists, and therefore would not have disproven solipsism per se, only solipsism by A). Even though B has proven A wrong, there is no way for B to validly convince A to abandon solipsism, since A doubts B's very existence, let alone B's experiences or experimental results.

Brain in a vat

A thought-experiment related to solipsism, although in principle distinct (for one thing, it posits a real mad scientist, brain, and vat, which a metaphysical solipsist would dispute), is the brain in a vat. The person performing the thought-experiment considers the possibility that they are trapped within some utterly unknowable reality, much like that illustrated in the movie The Matrix. A mad scientist could be sending the same impulses to one's brain in a vat that one's brain (understood to be that of a person in the "real world") might receive, thereby creating "the world" as one knows it from the mad scientist's program. Yet, for one's brain in the vat, that "world" would obviously not be "real." This raises the possibility that everything one thinks or knows is illusion. Or, at the least, that one cannot know with any certainty whether one's brain is in the "real world" or in a vat receiving impulses that would create an equivalent consciousness— or even if there is a real world, mad scientist, brain, or vat (all experience could be simply a never-ending dream).

Now – what do you think – can you really prove beyond all doubt, without any act of faith, that the Earth and the Sun really do exist?

quote:
I do control myself, no one else does. No one is in my brain, controlling my every thought, and move. Only you can control yourself, no one else.

Aside from the 'brain in the vat' thought experiment – this is still an incomplete truth.

You respond and react to the outside world - you obey laws – you do things that other people may ask or demand of you – in this way, they have a control over you. and more subtly (although not without controversy) you might respond to pheromones, and thus be controlled in that way (but pheromones are merely another way in which you respond and are controlled by environmental stimuli, many of which are social or interpersonal in nature).

One of the interesting paradoxes in science is that science does not allow for free will.  Science assumes that all events are a consequence of some cause, and thus your own actions, although they may appear to be an act of free will, is itself a consequence of some external cause.  To assume otherwise would be to assume there is a consequence without a cause, which is unscientific – is it not?.

quote:
God is non-existant, because nothing you do, proves his existance. Main reason why I replied to this topic.

Lack of proof of existence is not the same as proof of a lack of existence.

George

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
How is it not the same? If you can't prove something, then there is a lack of existence. How ignorant are you? If you can't prove something to be real, then how is it real?

I would refrain from calling me ignorant until you have read and answered my point with regard to the 'brain in the vat' thought experiment, or any experiment that can definitively prove that what you sense is a real sensation.  You are arguing from just the same bigoted blind faith that you accuse others of.  Yes, I have faith in my senses, because I have no better alternative – but it is not blind faith – I do recognise that it is faith, and it is conceivable that my senses are wrong.

quote:
How can your sense touch/feel be fooled when you feel something you can feel it. It is unlogical to say your sense of touch/feel can be fooled when in reality it can't. Senses such as taste, smell, and hearing can be fooled, but touch/feel cannot be fooled. If you feel the rays of the sun hitting you, it is a small proof to say the sun is real. If you touch the ground of the earth, and you feel it, it's real. Don't be stupid to those senses.

Lets start with:

http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/en/pain/microsite/medicine2.html

quote:
After amputation of a limb, an amputee continues to have an awareness of it and to experience sensations from it. These phantom limb sensations are also present in children born without a limb, suggesting that perception of our limbs is 'hard-wired' into our brain and that sensations from the limbs become mapped onto these brain networks as we develop.
If phantom limb sensations are normal then so too, alas, is phantom limb pain. This occurs in a majority of those who lose their limbs. (1) In fact, limbs do not need to be lost; it also occurs in conditions in which the brain is disconnected from the body, such as peripheral nerve injuries and after spinal cord injury, when an area becomes insentient (and usually paralysed).

Now you can ask how can you have sensations from a limb that is not there.  But it is clear that such sensations can exist.  So would you then suggest it is impossible to fool the senses.

It is also not that difficult to convince someone they are feeling something that is not actually there while they are under hypnosis.

George

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer
Put it this way: If was personally talking to you in person, and I said there is a horse right beside me. Would you believe it's existance? If you can't see it, smell it, touch it, hear it, or taste it, then there is a lack of existance there.

I would at the first instance assume that you were suffering some form of psychosis – although ofcourse, it is possible that it is I who is suffering the psychosis.  In general, it will be left to a third party to decide between the two (and one of the two of us will be taken away for treatment).  But the point is that such hallucination are perfectly possible, and perfectly natural.  To someone who is suffering such a psychosis, to them the horse is very real (or not very absent), and that is their absolute and unshakable belief.

quote:
 It's the same with God, you can't see him/her/it, smell him/her/it, touch him/her/it, hear him/her/it, or taste him/her/it, there is a lack of existance because the sense touch DOES NOT come in. And if there isn't any proof of him/her/it existance, then there is a lack of existance!

No, it is not the same at all.

If we are talking about visitations (people who claim to actual see a physical manifestation of God, or of a saint), then I would agree there is some similarity (although there still remains some difference also).

If someone tells me they believe something that cannot be directly sensed does exist, then there is no contradiction in the fact that I do not sense it.  Your argument earlier related to a horse that you fully expected me to be able to sense, and yet I did not sense.  No-one has yet come forward and suggested that I should be able to hear/see/smell God, so there is no contradiction in the fact that I do not smell/hear/see God.

George

[Carolyn]

George - Thank you so much for jumping in on this thread.  I was just far to annoyed to post any further.  Your intelligence continually amazes me, as well as your ability to communicate effectively without showing anger.

So George, If I was personally talking to you in person, I'd tell you that you are awesome!!!  Oh, yeah.  Welcome to the ignorance club.[^][]

Carolyn