[sliffy]

yor_on,

you don't understand me... i don't say that god or anybody else can compute the future
i say that the whole system works by rules and that's why the world and our fate is determinated

we are talking about 2 things
1. you say that we have free will because we can decide between "a" or "b"
yes, i agree with that

2. i say this kind of free will is illusory because we are working by rules so our decisions are computable

[yor_on]

Nope.
Not on the individual plane.

Turn your question around instead.
Is there anywhere in history we could say that one man/womans free will have made a big difference to us?

If there is, do that mean that one 'particle' can decide the behavior of a pattern?

[sliffy]

i understand your question but i don't understand your meaning

Is there anywhere in history we could say that one man/womans free will have made a big difference to us?
we are talking about free will... i say there is no free will so in my opinion your question has no sense

i suggest let's start with the roots...

1. do you agree that everything in our universe work by rules?

[yor_on]

Do you know them?
==

Look I think my point of view is simple.
Not difficult to comprehend.

And I've given what I see as good examples to why free will should exist.
Both expressed in negatives as positives.

As for what rules that steer this SpaceTime, that's a open question.
I do not have the answer.

And if you think you have?
Present them.

[yor_on]

I can give you a hint for what I expect to steer them though.

Constants.

[SteveFish]

Yor_on. I agree with Sliffy. The inability of a government to predict human behavior only gives people some freedom from government, not free will. The inability to predict the future does not equate to free will. I presume that some of your invocation of indeterminate nature of the physical world has something to do with quantum mechanics. If so, you should state this up front so somebody might actually understand what you are talking about. I am not sure at all that the indeterminate properties of particles has any effect whatsoever at the level of reality that brains work in, or that if it did that it would have any importance to this discussion. Steve

[yor_on]

Steve, I made my statement already. This is the second time you tell me that you don't understand what I'm saying

That's okay with me.
Just do your thing.

[sliffy]

the rules are phisical rules
some of them know we already... a lot of them we have to discover
 

[yor_on]

Sliffy, your question seems to come down to the question if SpaceTime can be seen as a 'whole process' where all things ultimately have to be 'accounted for' as they took place inside this 'closed system'. Looked at that way I will direct you to 'bifurcations' and then you should look at 'Feigenbaums constant'.

What you see there is non-linearity impossible to backtrack but still inside a 'linearity' represented by this Feigenbaum constant.

And the constant is the really interesting part here.
Once we thought the world to be a linear thing, steered by 'forces'
Then we realized that the linearity was like islands inside non-linearity.
Now we start to find that it is like dolls inside dolls inside dolls ins...

So I think free will exist, for sure.
But I don't know if it makes a difference.
Can you see my point better now?

[Joe L. Ogan]

Everyone has limitations, i.e. Physical. intellectual, financial,  etc. etc.  Within those limitations, one has free will to act as one sees fit.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

[yor_on]

Yep, nice definition Joe. On the individual plane we all have a free will.

[SteveFish]

Yor_on. I will give this one more try. Please provide a definition of free will that will allow us to evaluate it in light of your notions regarding causality. Even more important, how would your definition of free will differentiate between a person making a decision and a complex computer program making a decision? Steve

[SteveFish]

Joe. I am willing to accept your definition if you will admit that this also means that my dog and the giant banana slug I just moved off the porch also have free will. If you don't agree, what is the difference. Steve

[yor_on]

Look up my references Steve, then I hope you will see why I see it like I do. There are more things to it of course, but ain't it that way always? But they are a good staring point for what 'free will' might be. If you accept the basic premises I do. That we too, are a part of a physical system called 'SpaceTime'.

[sliffy]

thx, i see better
i know that our doll is within another doll and the number of dolls can be infinity but i guess that not only our world is determined
the designer in the upper level should be determined as well
his world has rules as well

[yor_on]

As for what differ a program with multiple choices and a human being?
Depends on how many choices that human sees, don't it?
The difference have to be in my question here

That is if you don't construct a quantum computer, or a analogue one with an infinity of possible 'choices', and also it seems to be a thing of 'magnifying/contracting' what 'reality' we look on as QM also seems to leave choices open, but hinged in by 'probability'.

So it becomes a very philosophical question if you want to narrow it down. I'm not trying to, I just look at what I think is significant for my understanding of 'SpaceTime' and when it comes to 'free will' I have this definition.

[yor_on]

Well Sliffy, that depends on your own definition of what the world ultimately should be seen as. My view is that the world probably is a whole thing, and if we could see it that way the question about free will will become meaningless on that plane. But I don't expect any arrow to exist there either. The question of a 'free will' is meaningful only under our arrow as I see it.

(arrow of time)

[sliffy]

you write: "free will will become meaningless on that plane"... >> why it is meaningless? do you agree that free will doesn't exist if our system is closed?
i can't imagine a closed system working by rules to be non-determined

 

[SteveFish]

Yor_on. What references are you referring to? Are you unwilling to give your own definition of free will? I don't accept your basic premises because you haven't actually laid them out in a logical manner. Do you actually think that the number of choices available to a person, or computer, is what defines free will? If you know what you think free will is, just define it. Steve

[yor_on]

Look Steve, I can see you want a ah, 'discussion' about it. I'm not interested, simple as that. I do not have the answer to the universe although I have my own opinions. The references was 'bifurcations' and then the 'Feigenbaum constant'.

And Sliffy, the 'thingie' that i expect to be 'whole' is not what we call SpaceTime. It's ? Well, it have to include the virtual aspects as well as what we see as those 'Russian dolls'. It's not anything I know how to specify, as there most probably will be more to it than what I can see. And our 'SpaceTime' and the the 'arrow' created by that I see as a consequence of it, with us infused with all that 'virtuality' etc. We 'exist' on many planes simultaneously if you look at it like that, the 'virtual world' being inside each one of us. So? My view that is