[sliffy]

Geezer,

pls explain why do you thint that: "you may reach different conclusions for an "apparently" identical set of inputs. I think that's the same as saying you have free will."

i guess you can't measure it... for this to be true there should be 2 identical moment in time... which doesn't exist
just imagine your life as a moovie... do you say that backwarding the moovie you would have infinite versions of your life because you would decide different?

i guess not... you could back- and forwarding the moovie and you would see the same scenes... we are talking about FORWARDING now

[JP]

I've never been sure that quantum mechanics suddenly solves all the problems with free will either...

In classical physics, if your brain and the surrounding universe is in state A at time t1, then applying the laws of physics to your brain means that you can determine with 100% accuracy that it will be in state B at a later time t2. 

In quantum mechanics, if your brain and the surrounding universe has wavefunction A at time t1, then applying the laws of physics means that it will have wavefunction B at time t2, so you know the complete description of your brain at some time.  Does that mean that you lack free will, since that description prescribes the number of thoughts you can have, and the probability of each one occurring?

Then there's the practical problem of whether it's even possible to construct a computer that can store the exact state of the universe plus your brain and then compute how that changes in time.  To be fully accurate, it seems like such a computer would need to be bigger than the entire universe (it would need to store data on the entire universe and perform computations on the entire universe).  If the computation can never be done, does that mean you have free will?

[sliffy]

it's not a question if such a computer can be build or not... the question is if the future is determined...
if yes than we have no free will

JP,
i agree with you... all you write means for me that we have no free will

[siochi]

It depends on what you think of freewill.

Let me put it out to you in this way.

let's say that our thoughts are the outcome of this equation -

(a+b/4+c)d

the first part of the equation (a+b/4+c) is the domain where free will exists. In this domain, human can think of new things, and control his desire for things.

but the (d) part of the equation is essentially a nullifier, so it reduces the value of the equation to 0. This domain is the universal domain, and if looked from here, all our actions look as if they are guided by some mystical force of the universe, but, it is just how you look at it.

Any questions ? mail me [email removed - unless you are inviting a torrent of spam on yourself, I would recommend you shd only invite Q by PM - Regards, A. Mod]

[sliffy]

siochi,

why do you think that the universal domain is not determined or working by rules?

[yor_on]

"If the computation can never be done, does that mean you have free will?"
   
Nice formulation JP.

And I think yes, that's exactly what it mean.
If you can't define it, then you can't tell me what I will do the next time I stand choosing between ah, sweets? Which mean that my choice can't be known, even by myself..

Sh*, thinking of it, that explains a lot
But I can, decide I mean, I'm sure I can?
===

What I think is that we have both, by themselves.
It's not that one of the ideas is the absolute truth. Either Or..
Both are true but from different points of view.

So we have a free will, but as seen from some other 'magnitudes' we still have predictions and trends that make it seem as if there was some 'direction'. And that's the Russian dolls to me.

But free will exist.

[sliffy]

yor_on,

you don't understand me...
please answer this question... you may will see what i mean:
does a robot have free will?

[sliffy]

why we think that we are not robots without free will?

[Geezer]

I think we might be making things unnecessarily complicated here.

Consider a thermostat. It can be off, or it can be on, so it's a fairly simple entity that only has two states. Does it have free will or not?

I believe it does. It decides when it wants to change state. Nothing can predict precisely when that event will occur.

[sliffy]

Geezer,

maybe the question "do we have free will?" is not definite... we have free will of course
the question should be sound like this:

is our world determined?

if the answer: yes, it means that our free will is illusory

what do you think?

[Geezer]

Geezer,

maybe the question "do we have free will?" is not definite... we have free will of course
the question should be sound like this:

is our world determined?

if the answer: yes, it means that our free will is illusory

what do you think?

I think we'll never be able to answer that one  []

That's really about what a person believes, and science won't be much help with that.