[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

It seems that we agree that there should be regulation. I think where we differ is that you think it should have been obvious that there was going to be a banking crisis so that measures should have been taken to prevent it, where I think that this was not so easy to foresee (except for wily Scotsmen like Geezer). I agree that giving independence to the Bank of England to make decisions was not a good idea, but then I don't think that any government has any real capability to make any better decisions.

Not the case as people outside the system, they should be able to think in unbiased ways, and look at what is beneficial to the whole market, with all included, the big fish that are calling the shots, are just acting in their own interest- they always will, self regulation does not work.

It was a surprising decision for a Labour government to make.

They were not a labour government, not new labour it's blue labour, Look at brown he reduced taxes on the richest, gave more of the peoples power to the market, and increased taxes on the poorest scraped the 10p tax rate and changed them all 20. Not Labour at all, they do what business says, business rules today, the market rules.

There was a big change in the nature of banking (at least in the UK) from the 1970s.

Thather and Regan, they eliminated alot of the old rules and gave a free hand to business, as well as many pf the democratic powers that government had, they didn't even consult the people, they just gave them away, under this false idea of restricting power.

 Banking was a very conservative (small c) business where no risks were taken. It was also quite non-centralised with branch managers in charge of their own budgets for lending to local businesses.

A time when the banker actually sort to take care of their clients, today they seek to steal from them, sell them things they cannot afford, charge them for things they should not, like withdrawing money from a cash machine, they are going to start charging people for the reserve holding they are meant to keep under the regs, understand that as good practice they should hold back an amount of money but rather than do that they are intending to charge people, "you want us to protect your money better(this is their job in the first place) then we are going to charge you, even tho really it's in the banks interest to keep that money, they are just finding any excuse they can to charge people, to make more money and rip you all off.

 This changed considerably with a number of mergers and a high degree of centralisation.

Which would all have been illegal before, as it's antitrust, anti-free market, anti-compertician.

 

 Many building societies converted to banks and their shareholders (mostly ordinary investors) profited, though not as much as the directors. This was the go-get-rich Thatcher era. The banks all moved in the same way in this regard. It was not a good thing in my opinion, but once this sort of dynamic is in place, there is no room for non-conformists.

You are either a insider trader crook or you get gone, not exceptable.
 

It is also true that there is a majority of people on the boards of the banks, and many other companies, whose prime concern is making money for themselves.

You'll find many of the directors sit on the bourds of other companies also, www.theyrule.net check it out.

Shareholders have very little power and customers even less. There is some incentive to keep the gravy train rolling, however. Whilst these companies were doing well and seemingly successful there was no need to change. On the inside there developed a culture of risk taking and this was felt by the individuals concerned to be necessary for the bank, and therefore themselves, to maximise profits.

It's more than just risk taking, giving someone a morgage you know they cannot pay, then selling it on to someone else, then betting on it failing, while all the while pretending it is a AAA, is seeking to deceive, to cheat people, to con them, far more than just risk taking, completely criminal, You're the fool, right, if you buy the junk. 

 It became the norm for money from savings accounts to be used to invest in areas which were high risk. This would not have happened 30 years earlier. Whilst there was an expanding economy, this worked fine.

This is a good point, 30 years ago it would not have happened, those running the banks today are used to their huge profits, and will not except going back, ergo a bigger crash is going to come. We either break these banks up and get better ones started, or the system is going to smash in the extreme. All the people that work in these banks know how to steal and lie and cheat, that's the job they have been doing for the last 15 years or longer, the culture hasn't really changed. You're all mugs, ripe for the picking.

 But like the crash in 1926 and the East India Company, few saw it coming. Not the Bank of England nor the Federal Reserve. Any who had concerns would be swept aside because getting off the train too early could leave them left behind and uncompetitive.

It's interesting you reference this crash, not many know of it, it happened 2-3 years before 1929, and the government did the right things and after a year everthing was back to as it was before more or less, then with the crash of 29 they did everything differently, and the rest is history.

A failure of a bank is not just damaging to its management and shareholders, but also to its many savers. It also can have damaging consequences to future trust in institutions where such trust is necessary.

The banks do not have that attitude, the culture is completely perverted.

The consequences of letting banks fail is far reaching.

No does not have to be, it is more so today thanks to the reality that they are operating in many different countries, but that should be prohibited and their size limited, so they are not too big to fail, precisely because of that they should not be allowed to become that big, its' not too late, they will say that, but no, we can change it, their interest is themselves at the expense of the free market system, if it is not addressed another nightmare will be coming, and possibly a worse one than happened in 2008.

To what extent this was something that Bank directors relied on, I don't know, but it is not an assumption I would make. It galls everyone that these same people are raking in huge bonuses still but there is no mechanism to control this in the banks that received no bail out (like Barclays for example). There have been limited measures in the other banks and these are, arguably, insufficient because there is fear that key staff will leave. Changing the culture could take a long time and I doubt that there is a willingness to take the risk of damaging the net wealth creating capability of the City of London. There is a classic "prisoner's dilemma" problem here: controlling the banks only works properly on an international scale.

NEVER! They can stick the idea of ruling the planet and that is what they want, to control every country get every government doing their bidding. Too big too fail needs to end!

you put in place some joke of an international system, theyll ignore the rules as always, and get even more powerful. the national democratic governments of each country should set should set the standards expected within their bourders, no too big to fail bunkem, Business men are not fit to rule!

The Banks should have little say in the regs also, they always seek to twist them.

As BC said we live in a plutocracy, capital-ism, the banks make the capital they own it actaully, we do not use money as money has an intrinsic value, we use currency, credits valued by tax-debt, in value set off in the future when your tax pays the bonds off. We the people give the currency it's value, but the private banks print the stuff, they own it and can cancel it, true the bank of England was taken public, but Brown gave it independence. Even worse the
banks are seeking electronic money, "space credits".


I feel all money should be printed by, a nationally own bank, and backed by something, that can be gold or silver, or anything. If you back a currency by enought things it becomes very hard to inflate it, one pound will get you at a bank enchnge a pound of rice, an amount of gold or silver, an amount of leather.

The reason why with all the printing they are doing, that the currency is not inflating much is because it has no real value, it's value is relatively all in the mind, they can print print print, the value wont change really, it's all off in the future when the tax bill comes.
If you are wondering where the inflation is actually comming from it's from that money not really lossing it's value, fighting over the limited resourses, people are putting all that printed money into Gold and gold sky rockets, if they keep it in the bank they'll be no inflation at all.
So when you see prices rise, know it is becasue some rich person after being even money from the quantative easing(and it those with the greatest political banking connections that get it- the oligarchy) is buying up resoruses leaving less available so the price goes up, the inflations you are seeing are all contrived, if you have enought of the money the banks print- you can cause any comodity to increase in price. This system is a joke!

I thought I would come back and bold that paragraph

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

So understand when you see mass inflation, know it's because the oligarchy has decided to pour all their money into all the comodities they can.

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

So understand when you see mass inflation, know it's because the oligarchy has decided to pour all their money into all the comodities they can.

The oligarchy will never forgive me for this little nugget, but I think they should be more concerned about God forgiving them.

The whole system is a joke people always has been.
 

I think america should keep the dollar and pay their debts! But should you see Gold explode in price, know the dollar is about to die. What you recokon? 10,000 dollars an ounce? maybe more?

Are they pot commited? are they crying?

Oh and for anyone looking to invest in gold or silver make sure you get a caste settle agreement, otherwise they can pay you in dollars and not silver or gold, the banks are over selling to deflate the price. You if you dont get a caste settle agreement then they'll be no silver or gold actually backing the certificates.

What I mean for people that do not understand, is that to keep gold and silver low the banks are selling gold and silver they do not have, they are buying lots themselves then over over selling it, JP Morgan for example has sold about a 100 times the amount they actually have. This keeps the price down.

So if you do not have a caste settle agreement they'll pay you in dollars.

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

Shall we have a song to celebrate?

Jesse J, Price tag.

[graham.d]

Interesting about JPMorgan acquiring gold against loans to its owners. They claim it is a "service" in storing gold (people see it as a hedge against a falling dollar) but critics say they may be reselling it in exchange for gold price derivatives. This is where I lose touch with reality. I can see that they may have some maths worked out so that they can't lose but I can also see that not everyone can win. Actually, I don't know that anyone outside really knows what they are doing. The rumours all come from a limited range of sources. I think the concern is that if the dollar crashes and JPM have not actually got the gold, then JPM crashes and the people lose their gold too. It has certainly been the case that national banks like JPM (you can think that JPM is linked with the federal reserve) or the Bank of England don't actually keep gold to cover the money in circulation anymore. The promise that they "will pay the bearer ..." on your used tenner has long ceased to be a reality.

I would be grateful of a clear explanation of what anyone thinks is going on (allbeit a theory) and also for an explanation from JPM's perspective.

By the way, can you get higher order derivatives? Like betting on the rate of change of price of a derivative, or even betting on the rate of change of the rate of change?

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

Interesting about JPMorgan acquiring gold against loans to its owners. They claim it is a "service" in storing gold (people see it as a hedge against a falling dollar) but critics say they may be reselling it in exchange for gold price derivatives. This is where I lose touch with reality. I can see that they may have some maths worked out so that they can't lose but I can also see that not everyone can win. Actually, I don't know that anyone outside really knows what they are doing.

I think lots of people get what the banks are doing but keep it quiet as it's in the interest to do so. I say lots, but lots of those upstairs.

What do you think? Here you go, they are working to crash the dollar, we all know that, but are trying to keep it up and crash it when it is in their best interest to do so, this is part of the reason why the banks are overselling gold and silver, it keeps their price down, Now when the dollar breaks, it will become a worthless currency, and all this Gold and silver they have sold without caste sell agreements will be paid in dollars, and at that time after the crash the dollar will be worthless, so the bankers are buying gold, selling certificates they know will become worthless, they get the gold and the people get shafted, but keeping the price down they allow more time to unload their trillions in losses and they are unloading them to the people, as we the people are expected to pay many of these bad loans off today, through the tax and austerity measures, government is reducing spending, so it can pay off these loans and bad debts that the banks have given them.

So they are preparing for a huge crash, to bust the dollar, take a new currency, get as much gold as possible, and inflate the rest of their debts away. More or less, and it will happen as they dictate, The oligarchy of course.   

You need to see just how much debt they generated, it's in the trillions of trillions, they give some to as many countrues as they can, others they are trying to unwind, others they seek to play with bonds and using the money made pay them off, and after all that, they will inflate away the rest as they burn the dollar.

In the words of Max Keiser and I agree with him "We need to do what ever we can to end this banker occupation" As in being occupied by.

The rumours all come from a limited range of sources. I think the concern is that if the dollar crashes and JPM have not actually got the gold, then JPM crashes and the people lose their gold too. It has certainly been the case that national banks like JPM (you can think that JPM is linked with the federal reserve) or the Bank of England don't actually keep gold to cover the money in circulation anymore. The promise that they "will pay the bearer ..." on your used tenner has long ceased to be a reality.

I would be grateful of a clear explanation of what anyone thinks is going on (allbeit a theory) and also for an explanation from JPM's perspective.

It's not Gold but silver, JPM is mainly trading in or was, thanks to buy silver crash JPM campaign, they have moved more into gold, but as a slight explanation, JPM is a member of the silver users association they are in bed together for what ever reason, the SUA use silver in their products, so they want a low silver price, JPM is helping them get one. all the over selling is keeping the price low, but it's not just JPM other members of the SUA are doing the same.

If a market is rational it's broken, as someone is deciding and dictating, so it's no longer free, it's controlled. But who doesn't know that anyway, only fools and horses.

To use a quote from JFK the film "First we had Castro with us then we tried to wack him, it's all mutual interest" It's called a cartel, and all the banks are in it together.

By the way, can you get higher order derivatives? Like betting on the rate of change of price of a derivative, or even betting on the rate of change of the rate of change?

Do not encourage them, are you insane?!

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

The rumours all come from a limited range of sources. I think the concern is that if the dollar crashes and JPM have not actually got the gold, then JPM crashes and the people lose their gold too. It has certainly been the case that national banks like JPM (you can think that JPM is linked with the federal reserve) or the Bank of England don't actually keep gold to cover the money in circulation anymore. The promise that they "will pay the bearer ..." on your used tenner has long ceased to be a reality.

I would be grateful of a clear explanation of what anyone thinks is going on (allbeit a theory) and also for an explanation from JPM's perspective.

It's not Gold but silver, JPM is mainly trading in or was, thanks to buy silver crash JPM campaign, they have moved more into gold, but as a slight explanation, JPM is a member of the silver users association they are in bed together for what ever reason, the SUA use silver in their products, so they want a low silver price, JPM is helping them get one. all the over selling is keeping the price low, but it's not just JPM other members of the SUA are doing the same.

If a market is rational it's broken, as someone is deciding and dictating, so it's no longer free, it's controlled. But who doesn't know that anyway, only fools and horses.

To use a quote from JFK the film "First we had Castro with us then we tried to wack him, it's all mutual interest" It's called a cartel, and all the banks are in it together.

Just so we are clear, banks used to compete for customers, and over service quality etc Today they work together, and rather than competeing seek to just rip as many people off as they can, mutual interest, they also work together to set the rules they want and together bully all the governments they can. A Cartel.

Doesnt help either that many of these bankers are all Templars, cultists. Following the grand historic tradition of the templars, it was their extorion and banking racketeering that lead to them becomming so wealthy and the church turning on them way back on friday the 13th all those years ago. They fled to Scotland and then a few years later invented the Free Masons as a respectable frount.

Was also them that forced John to sign a certain piece of paper I think you'll find, Ofcourse I express an opinion. Very interesting Cult history actually.

I personally think Cult members should not be allowed into government, you can't stop them entering business, but they all serve their interests and conspire.

Church of John some call them. John the Baptist, God is gracious, they don't really except Jesus. That's the thing about cults they end up believing all kinds of rediculas stuff, they I believe see John the baptist as superior to Jesus as the Baptist, baptised Christ. Again this is going back to the time of the templars, when they as knights worked for the church but gained their own faith, over time be sure it's just got more radical.

[Geezer]

By the way, can you get higher order derivatives? Like betting on the rate of change of price of a derivative, or even betting on the rate of change of the rate of change?

Interesting idea Graham. You'd have to move PDQ to cash in your gain before the higher order derivative went negative  []

[graham.d]

The trouble is most of the web comments is based on Max Keiser. I have not heard JPM's side of the story. While I can believe that there are such machinations, even to the extent of crashing the dollar, and even, maybe, that the Federal Reserve is in on it, but tying this in to the Knights Templar is really a bridge too far. Geezer must be involved too. A Scot, living in the US and who sold his house in California just at the right time... spooky.

Free Masonry is a hangover and certainly a mutual backscratching organisation (in my opinion). I know a couple of Freemasons and I knew someone (a scotsman and not a mason and sadly deceased) who held a very senior position in a Scottish Bank (now part of Barclays). None of these people are or were up to anything untoward. Very decent guys in fact. I used to wind up one of the masons because he was a lord high stag (or some such thing) and he didn't agree with me that the masons were just a mutual backscratching society.

There are a whole load of pressure groups, lobbyists, religious fanatics, political groups etc., some of which are well organised and can and do influence the way the world is run. I struggle to see it in this case, unless you can provide some good evidence of course.

You maybe right that JPM is betting on the dollar being overvalued and that their actions, being so large and influential, may help to amplify the effects so as to exaggerate any adjustment into being a sudden fall. But you could argue that what they are doing is common sense from their perspective and nothing more devious than that. Afterall, people could just hang on to their Gold and Silver if they want to; in fact if it thought likely that the dollar will collapse, they should do.

[imatfaal]

They were trading (and probably are once again) what were, in effect, third order derivatives.  In the words of Graham (Chapman not D) "Too Silly!"

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

The trouble is most of the web comments is based on Max Keiser. I have not heard JPM's side of the story. While I can believe that there are such machinations, even to the extent of crashing the dollar, and even, maybe, that the Federal Reserve is in on it, but tying this in to the Knights Templar is really a bridge too far.

Not at all, a lot of bankers are members of cults, The templar revelation is an ok Book on the subject, Cults exist and are very powerful some of them, have lots of members, in lots of places.

Just because you do not know what they are doing, does not mean they are not doing anything. Look at the election before last in America it was Bush verse Kerry both are members of skull and bones, who ever you voted in a skull and bones man was gonna be president.

Geezer must be involved too. A Scot, living in the US and who sold his house in California just at the right time... spooky.

Free Masonry is a hangover and certainly a mutual backscratching organisation (in my opinion).
 I know a couple of Freemasons and I knew someone (a scotsman and not a mason and sadly deceased) who held a very senior position in a Scottish Bank (now part of Barclays). None of these people are or were up to anything untoward. Very decent guys in fact. I used to wind up one of the masons because he was a lord high stag (or some such thing) and he didn't agree with me that the masons were just a mutual backscratching society.

Many will say it's an old boys club, works as a pyramid, those at the bottom have no clue. It's the thing about the shaddows all kinds of things go on.

There are a whole load of pressure groups, lobbyists, religious fanatics, political groups etc., some of which are well organised and can and do influence the way the world is run. I struggle to see it in this case, unless you can provide some good evidence of course.

you can ref my past comment about skull and bones, some say Obama is a Mason.

You maybe right that JPM is betting on the dollar being overvalued and that their actions, being so large and influential, may help to amplify the effects so as to exaggerate any adjustment into being a sudden fall. But you could argue that what they are doing is common sense from their perspective and nothing more devious than that. Afterall, people could just hang on to their Gold and Silver if they want to;

If they take psyical delivery and then find somewhere to keep it. Most that buy silver from JPM buy a silver certificate, a piece of paper that says you own this amount of silver(like orginal paper money) there are other ways they sell and buy it also, but the silver isnt there, when it comes to collecting if you do not have a caste settle agreement they'll give you dollars.

You can keep your JPM pieace of paper, but that'll be worthless after a dollar demise.

in fact if it thought likely that the dollar will collapse, they should do.

Not thought likly they are planning it, China wants the dollar gone so does russia as the world reserve currency, and they want a new currency basket unit of exchange to replace it, thing is while these countries plan it's demise thinking they are cleaver America is also planning it, others are really behind this movement. America will probably take the Amero, Just as europe has the Euro, and the new world reserve currency will be the S.D.R as they are planning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Drawing_Rights

"In late March 2009 Zhou Xiaochuan, governor of the People's Bank of China proposed using the SDR as a worldwide reserve currency in place of the dollar as a way to cope with problems associated with the US dollar and the Euro being used as world reserve currencies"

Dont you think it's funny that China suggests the SDR? The IMF controls it, and the IMF is a big lacky to American corporate interests, just as the WTO is.

Who wins here really, all the countries are being heavily over burdened with debts and many are being forced to default. No peoples are winning that's for sure. 

[Geezer]

Geezer must be involved too. A Scot, living in the US and who sold his house in California just at the right time... spooky.

Strangely enough  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Rite

I had never even heard of this lot till I moved to the US. Personally, I take a pretty dim view of any organization that requires you to subject yourself to an initiation ceremony without revealing the details in advance.

Signed: Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

Geezer must be involved too. A Scot, living in the US and who sold his house in California just at the right time... spooky.

Strangely enough  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Rite

I had never even heard of this lot till I moved to the US. Personally, I take a pretty dim view of any organization that requires you to subject yourself to an initiation ceremony without revealing the details in advance.

Signed: Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret

[]

Agree, orginally sons of masons joined up as standard but I think that caused problems as some said after a few years "I never agreed to this stuff" So today apparently you have to ask to join, and they are not meant to invite people, although someone I met told me they knew someone that was invited to join, just lie and lie don't they. and actually I know someone that told me he was invited.

But it's worse than that, you dont know what you are joining first, and then it takes years to go up the ladder and with each step you learn something new.

Albert Pike "Lucifer "the light bearer", a strange name to give to an angel of darkness..." He goes on but basically ends up saying that the light is with that idiot. I point out that as he fell he lost his job- to bare the light, so no light in that idiot be sure.

If you do not know Albert pike he is a perlific Masonic writer, they twist everything.

Check the film
 

Woe to those that call darkness light and light darkness.

I'll say this as well, one Mason I spoke with told me that Jesus never even existed, says a lot. Also met a few that were Satanists- repenting satanists, well one was.

[Geezer]

Well, you can say what you like about Pike, but at least he knew how to make a good video.

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

Well, you can say what you like about Pike, but at least he knew how to make a good video.

Weirder than some of my dreams, last nights was quiet fun, I was getting beaten by a bunch backward cowards, and yes I did tell them that, some of us have a back bone.  []  

To quote saint paul "I was beaten by an angel of satan, to stop me becomming to proud"

I never get to kiss on the other side tho.  [:-'(]
even if it felt like one []

Geezer what you done you got me joking about,

"Can't trust em, they lie to the fish"

Like I always say- the weak only feel strong when they are beating people, and cleaver when they are decieving, ofcourse by weak I mean unsound, empty, them that lack and so seek compensation- solice in their sadism. I still pity them even as they hurt me.

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

You maybe right that JPM is betting on the dollar being overvalued and that their actions, being so large and influential, may help to amplify the effects so as to exaggerate any adjustment into being a sudden fall. But you could argue that what they are doing is common sense from their perspective and nothing more devious than that.

And I have to re-adress that comment, as the banks are working as a cartel they are planning what is to come. We do not even know how much bad debt there is the banks will not tell us. and if we have learnt anything from the recent banking crisis it's that the banks are professionally devious.

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

Do you all want to see something beautiful?

Here watch this
Max Keiser: breif report:- for today

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

Shall we have a song to celebrate?

Jesse J, Price tag.

Bought you a few years [].

To quote lady Gaga "I like game" meeaow

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

Do you all want to see something beautiful?

Here watch this
Max Keiser: breif report:- for today

Now why has gold and other comodities fallen? Because they have sold, and deflated the price. now have they just sold even more junk? To say have they sold comodites long? and given out even more fake gold certificates? Or is it that the market has realised that the stuff isnt there, The whole system a joke really? so what they have isnt worth what they felt it was, Who can you trust?


Or are the oligarchy trying to hide? As people begin to spot the inflation causers? More likly as it sounds like an unloading doesn't it, not a manfatured sell, but a selling of what exists. To say they haven't made more certificates the majority of players are just selling- but the rubbish obviously they are not going to sell the good stuff are they.

No regs no trust. It's not illegal for them to sell junk as gold is it, nothing to prevent it, cant prosicute either it's exceptable behaviour, as no regs say they cant. So they rip you all off. even if the regs do say they cant, no one is going to prosicute them, thats their world a free hand to exploit, for the masters upstairs.

[Jolly- Joliver (OP)]

So we are having a re-assesment, what is it really worth?

And what does the oligarchy want really? Answer, confidence.

To be continued  []