[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by erich

I feel this new study says it all:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html

no surprise, Like anyone would chose to be gay. But I like this study because one can extrapolate that sexual identity is a sliding scale. That very few of us are exclusively hetero in our hormonal sensitivity, although most of us are in our sexual behavior. That hetero, bi, and homo are very coarse and stigmatizing labels.

Not sure it proves that much.

It does prove that there is a correlation between brain chemistry and behaviour – but then, why should there not be – the brain controls behaviour, so any change in behaviour should correspond with a change in brain activity  The report does not seem to make any attempt to show to what degree the change in brain chemistry is genetic or environmental in origin.

George

[gecko]

or maybe an inborn succeptability to cancer makes people smokers!

no, im just kidding i agree with anoth_some

[ukmicky]

i still reckon its a genetic flaw

Michael

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by ukmicky
i still reckon its a genetic flaw

In evolution, there is no such thing as an error, only random variation.  That the traits continue at around 10% of the population (very similar to that monitored in sheep), indicates that the genes that create such a predisposition are not of themselves harmful to the species (at least, not at the level it exists).

Whether one takes a religious, or an evolutionary, perspective; to assume it to be an error is to assume that your own design of nature is superior to that which was created by nature or by God (whichever you would prefer).  Nature has no concept of error or correctness, whereas God is supposed to be incapable of error.

George

[ukmicky]

quote:Originally posted by another_someone

quote:Originally posted by ukmicky
i still reckon its a genetic flaw

In evolution, there is no such thing as an error, only random variation.  That the traits continue at around 10% of the population (very similar to that monitored in sheep), indicates that the genes that create such a predisposition are not of themselves harmful to the species (at least, not at the level it exists).

Whether one takes a religious, or an evolutionary, perspective; to assume it to be an error is to assume that your own design of nature is superior to that which was created by nature or by God (whichever you would prefer).  Nature has no concept of error or correctness, whereas God is supposed to be incapable of error.

George

I dont agree with you george and there are lots and lots of people much cleverer than me who also disagree with you

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030516083103.htm  
 I also do believe  (according to peter tatchell) that in the UK the BMA class homosexuality  as a mental illness.



http://www-tech.mit.edu/V113/N62/cancer.62w.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/pdfs/data/1998/153-17/15317-18.pdf
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282176.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990CE7D8123FF932A05752C0A963958260

 

quote:There are a number of different causes of SCID. Each is caused by a different genetic defect, and each develops along a different pathway:

X-linked SCID, the most common type, a genetic flaw damages molecules that allow T cells and B cells to receive signals from crucial growth factors.
ADA deficiency results from the lack of an enzyme called adenosine deaminase (ADA) that helps cells, especially immune cells, to get rid of toxic byproducts. Without ADA, poisons build up and kill the lymphocytes.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25154

 

quote:WHAT ARE THE FORMS OF LIMB-GIRDLE MUSCULAR DYSTROPHY?

There are at least 13 forms of LGMD, and they’re classified by the genetic flaws that appear to cause them (see “Known Forms of Limb-Girdle Muscular Dystrophy”). By 2005, 11 genes that lead to production of muscle proteins had been implicated as definite causes of LGMD when they’re flawed. MDA research was behind much of the work that identified these LGMD genes.

http://www.mdausa.org/publications/fa-lgmd-qa.html

 

quote:Some 7.9 million children a year are born with serious birth defects caused at least partly by a genetic flaw, such as heart defects, spina bifida and other neural tube defects, sickle cell anemia and Down syndrome.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11101963/


so gene's which predisposes families  to cancer or Schizophrenia for example are not genectic flaws. They are to me ..we are born to live and any genetic abnormality/mutation which prevents someone from living, doing the most basic thing in life is a flaw.

We are given working reproductive organs for a reason to Procreate and anything which we are born with which prevents us from do this is a flaw and in my opinion gay people are born gay .  

Michael

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by ukmicky
I dont agree with you george and there are lots and lots of people much cleverer than me who also disagree with you

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030516083103.htm  
 I also do believe  (according to peter tatchell) that in the UK the BMA class homosexuality  as a mental illness.



http://www-tech.mit.edu/V113/N62/cancer.62w.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/pdfs/data/1998/153-17/15317-18.pdf
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282176.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990CE7D8123FF932A05752C0A963958260

 

quote:There are a number of different causes of SCID. Each is caused by a different genetic defect, and each develops along a different pathway:

X-linked SCID, the most common type, a genetic flaw damages molecules that allow T cells and B cells to receive signals from crucial growth factors.
ADA deficiency results from the lack of an enzyme called adenosine deaminase (ADA) that helps cells, especially immune cells, to get rid of toxic byproducts. Without ADA, poisons build up and kill the lymphocytes.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25154

 

quote:WHAT ARE THE FORMS OF LIMB-GIRDLE MUSCULAR DYSTROPHY?

There are at least 13 forms of LGMD, and they’re classified by the genetic flaws that appear to cause them (see “Known Forms of Limb-Girdle Muscular Dystrophy”). By 2005, 11 genes that lead to production of muscle proteins had been implicated as definite causes of LGMD when they’re flawed. MDA research was behind much of the work that identified these LGMD genes.

http://www.mdausa.org/publications/fa-lgmd-qa.html

 

quote:Some 7.9 million children a year are born with serious birth defects caused at least partly by a genetic flaw, such as heart defects, spina bifida and other neural tube defects, sickle cell anemia and Down syndrome.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11101963/


so gene's which predisposes families  to cancer or Schizophrenia for example are not genectic flaws. They are to me ..we are born to live and any genetic abnormality/mutation which prevents someone from living, doing the most basic thing in life is a flaw.

We are given working reproductive organs for a reason to Procreate and anything which we are born with which prevents us from do this is a flaw and in my opinion gay people are born gay .  

Michael

You are confusing a medical perspective with an evolutionary perspective.

What I said was that in evolutionary terms, there is no such thing as a genetic error.  In medical terms, clearly there are; albeit, what is determined to be a genetic error is totally arbitrary, since it depends upon an arbitrary human notion of what is the 'correct' genetic code.  The medical profession could as easily decide that having dark skin is a genetic flaw (perfectly reasonable if they make the assumption that all people should be pale skinned).

George

[tanian]

I think the argument that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth has been well established here, so I won't waste time reiterating it. I will tell you I believe it to be an erroneous, detrimental, and therefore undesireable aspect of our culture.

I personally believe it to be a mental illness- in exactly the same sense that epilepsy and dyslexia are mental illnesses. I fail to see how anyone could define them as anything else.

That's not to say I have any prejudices- I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).

There is an argument that homosexuality is a result of hormone levels in the womb - 'the fight to be male' - and the various issues that come with transforming an embryo into a fully functioning Wayne Rooney (hell he's so straight he sleeps with old hookers). Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia. It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all. To be honest I doubt we will ever know - who in their right mind would pursue funding for the necessary research with todays PC climate? One cannot offend the sexually dyslexic, even in the name of science []

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by tanian
Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia.

Testosterone is capable of rewiring the brain (it has been shown that testosterone actually rewires the brains of male songbirds that allows them to sing).

quote:
 It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all.

I don't know of, and would doubt, that there is any correlation between homosexuality and dyslexia.  The areas of the brain effected would be very different.

Nonetheless, I do agree that there are some similarities (although not necessarily in the way you suggest).  The point is that in an illiterate society, dyslexia carries no cost.  In the same way, in a world that is overpopulated, homosexuality carries little cost.  In a world that is capable of massive human expansion, homosexuality would carry significant cost, and hence why most pre-modern societies tended to be intolerant of homosexuality.

George

[neilep]

quote:Originally posted by tanian

I think the argument that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth has been well established here, so I won't waste time reiterating it. I will tell you I believe it to be an erroneous, detrimental, and therefore undesireable aspect of our culture.

I personally believe it to be a mental illness- in exactly the same sense that epilepsy and dyslexia are mental illnesses. I fail to see how anyone could define them as anything else.

That's not to say I have any prejudices- I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).

There is an argument that homosexuality is a result of hormone levels in the womb - 'the fight to be male' - and the various issues that come with transforming an embryo into a fully functioning Wayne Rooney (hell he's so straight he sleeps with old hookers). Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia. It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all. To be honest I doubt we will ever know - who in their right mind would pursue funding for the necessary research with todays PC climate? One cannot offend the sexually dyslexic, even in the name of science []

Can I ask you something?... For arguments sake, humour me will you ?....If it could be proved that being gay is NOT an illness would you then accept that ?...

Are you saying that like Dyslexia and mental illness's, that homosexuality is then treatable?...

Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do !!....

Is there really some truth that dyslexia can be correlated with homosexuality?


In MY opinion...It sickens me that homosexuality is compared to a mental illness

I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?

I question ones statement when people say they are not prejudiced and then go on to state that gays are gay because they are ill !!

Your final statement where you say one can not offend the sexual dyslexic IS offensive !!....I think in this regard funding for research as to the nature of heterosexuality AND homosexuality could be beneficial so that misguided prejudiced people with their so called 'non prejudiced ' points of view may benefit from the results.

C'mon...to put homosexuality in the same bracket as a mental illness (or any illness) is offensive ! in MY opinion !!

I am not attacking you but asking you to assist me in helping me to unbderstand your statements.


This whole thread has me rasing my arms skyward sometimes

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by neilep
Are you saying that like Dyslexia and mental illness's, that homosexuality is then treatable?...

I would question whether dyslexia is either a mental illness, nor treatable.

Dyslexia is to reading what tone deafness is to music.  No-one would suggest that tone deafness is a mental illness.

The only difference between the two is that we have created a society where being able to play and listen to music is optional, but being able to read and write is not.

We can help people to read inspite of their dyslexia, but we cannot cure dyslexia, any more than we can cure tone deafness.

George

[neilep]

I would also question whether dyslexia is either a mental illness or treatable......Hmm..well maybe treatable but perhaps not curable  !!

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[tanian]

The previous post was written in haste. The hope was to explain, but clearly I failed to do that.

I agree wholeheartedly that 'illness' is the wrong word in this context, and I hope you will accept my apologies.

I do not believe at this time that homosexuality would be, or should be curable, and I regret the inference that I am so bigoted that I would feel that way.

The word I meant to, and should have used, is 'aberration'.

I believe homosexuality to be an aberration. It is a disorder in exactly the way that dyslexia, epilepsy, colour blindness, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and a whole host of other ailments are considered disorders.

If you have issue with either the term 'aberration' or 'disorder' then I suggest, most strongly, that you look them up. They do have very nasty, negative connotations attached to them, and are as a result quite nasty words- but this does not change their literal meanings.

Homosexuality is an aberration. Literally.

As for the question of prejudice- I assure you I am not prejudiced. At all. I think no more of homosexuality than I do of dyselxia, colour blindness or epilepsy. I honestly feel they must in some sense seem a handicap to those affected by these conditions, but hey, as I said, they are no barriers to leading full and productive lives. And nor should they be.

Oh, and the 'sexual dyslexic' thing was simply a play on words. I did intend it to be humorous, but I clearly misjudged the audience. I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone.

[tanian]

quote: Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do !!....

Thinking about it, some homosexuals must have a truly horrific time of it. Imagine having a totally prejudiced, BNP voting family and then 'coming out' to them. For some it must be a terrible thing, the cause of much distress, heartache and unhappiness. Some homosexuals must certainly wish there was a cure.

quote:I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?

heterosexuals actually have a choice.
The key word here is choice.
Nature denies homosexuals of a choice.

 

quote:Your final statement where you say one can not offend the sexual dyslexic IS offensive !!....

Humbly accepted. See above post.  

quote:I think in this regard funding for research as to the nature of heterosexuality AND homosexuality could be beneficial so that misguided prejudiced people with their so called 'non prejudiced ' points of view may benefit from the results.

Agreed. That is a fantastic idea. I feel quite sure many, many people would benefit from the results. We would be able to adequately raise awareness of such issues in society as a whole, and challenge ignorance everywhere. Even if it comes from homosexuals.
Sexuality is, after all, no barrier to ignorance or bigotry.

To be completely honest, many homosexuals and transexuals would probably opt for a cure if there was one available. It is certainly a damning condemnation of our society that people would feel the need, but it also is a distinct possibility.


"These are my opinions... If you don't like them, I have others"
Groucho Marx

[neilep]

Oh why do you have to go and make me feel all guilty now ? []

I apprecaite your clarification and assistance in helping me understand your point of view.

OK..I can see why you might state that homosexulaity is an aberration...at the same time...there are just as many heterosexual practices (or is is practises?) which could also be deemed an aberration too !......however...I DO understand what you are saying now []

 I know a few gays, in my dialogues that I enjoy with them I can't say I have ever heard them say that their homosexuality in itself has given them reason to feel handicapped in any way.....but that certain aspects of society may treat them as such.

Thank you for clearing your points up. I too apologise for my tone.

I suppose I have a lot of time  for gays and almost feel an affinity because in the capacity that I have of my experience of dealing with them in business and work and social gatherings, I have only ever witnessed from my perspective what is clear to me as a completely normal application towards life, like you and me.  I honestly see them as equal in every respect and it just upsets me that ' they ' should be discussed so.

So, I am bringing personal experience here which perhaps , maybe this thread would then be different if we all had a whole bunch of gay friends too !...and I don't mean the odd acquaintance ![]

Thanks again.

Neil


Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[tanian]

No probs neil []

Tell you what tho, there's no way we'd get this hot and bothered if we were talking about bloody colour blindness.

Hey, great... Ok, we've done gays, lets get onto politics and religion...  Hey, did you just spill my pint? What did you say about Neil's mum???

Honestly, its a minefield in here []

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by tanian
I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).

In how many species does nature actually promote adoption, no matter what the sexuality of the adoptive parents?

What nature often does support is shared parenting (i.e. parental duties shared between the natural parents and the siblings of the parent – i.e. the child's aunts and/or uncles).  In such a scenario, the actual sexuality of the aunt's and uncles scarcely matter.

George

[ukmicky]

Neil please dont take any of this the wrong way.

Hi Neil this part isn't in response to you post so please don't take it personally it just that I felt the need to be truthful and let everyone know my personal views on the gay issue as I am going to answer some of your questions.
 
Firstly before I start let me say I have no hatred or dislike for anyone just because they are  lesbian or gay as they harm nobody and because I believe rightly or wrongly gay people are born gay, they are what they are born to be and therefore should not be persecuted in any way.

However I personally find the act of homosexual penetrative sex between two males disgusting and wrong, and therefore find the people who do this act as disgusting and wrong, but the same has to be said about penetrative anal sex between a man and a woman which I find equally abhorrent.

Anal sex is not something that evolution has designed the human body to do and has in fact caused the death of a number of individuals participating in it.  In my view its nasty, horrible, dirty and disgusting and I wouldn't argue against it being outlawed.

Legally anal sex and separately homosexuality has been deemed to be an acceptable practice in todays society, but that doesn't mean it cant be argued or spoken out against as is often done by a large percentage of today's society who still find the idea of it as wrong,they are legally and morally allowed to have those views just like people who agree with it are allowed to have their views and so neither side should be attacked if they wish to politely express themselves. Everyone has a right to there own opinions. im not saying you have []
 
On a side issue in regards to the acceptance of homosexuality, it's weird how women seem to accept it more than men.

Now in answer to some of your questions

quote: can I ask you something?... For arguments sake, humour me will you ?....If it could be proved that being gay is NOT an illness would you then accept that ?...
____________________

Yes I would, however what is a mental illness. One definition is someone having a personality disorder, which I feel could easily be argued either way in the case of homosexuality. But there are many definitions with different countries having differing views. I  suppose it comes down to your personal view as even The BMA state that

"The term "mental illness" is undefined and its operational definition and usage is a matter for clinical judgement in each case".

These days psychiatrists are however trying to be less speculative and look for medical evidence to aid their diagnosis such as gene and neurotransmitter abnormalities the same things which they believe could be part of the reason for people being homosexual. So why cant homosexuality be a mental disorder, a mental disorder doesn't in my book nessesary mean something bad.

(I thought i would sneak this bit in) On the issue regarding whether genetics has anything to do with people being gay  there has been a number of studies that found just that. There have been a number of studies which found that if one Monozygotic) genetically identical twin was gay then the other had on average 50% chance of being gay too. Whereas (dizygotic twins) Twins  who are not genetically identical had only a 22 % chance of having the identical sexual orientation.  

quote:

Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do!!....
It sickens me that homosexuality is compared to a mental illness
 

It doesn't sicken me because a mental illness doesn't have to be something bad.
One of the reasons homosexuality was dropped as a mental illness in the USA was because of the stigma which comes unfairly with term "mental illness". Many people think that someone with a mental illness is bad for society or someone who should be shunned ,and so they figured therefore that people would then feel that if homosexualarity remained a mental disorder then homosexuals would also recieve some of the prejudeces people recieve through having a mental condition.

but in the real world they believe 1 in 4 people are diagnosed with a mental illness of form or another and most lead normal happy productive lives .

Lots of people do not even know that they have a mental disorder until it is diagnosed and up to then felt like there was nothing wrong with them, they felt normal and even after diagnosis they still felt normal. But what is normal?

Many people live with mental conditions which don’t require treatment but i suppose it would depend on whether the condition was deemed undesirable or detrimental to the sufferer or society and as homosexuals have not been deemed so in the UK  your point is pointless. HA[]

quote:I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?

The population is getting older and not enough children are being born but I'm not qualified to give an opinion on this one so thats as far as i will go. I will leave it to people like George who are better at the stats etc.[]

quote: I question ones statement when people say they are not prejudiced and then go on to state that gays are gay because they are ill !!

Most of us have a little bug (or virus not sure which) running around our brains slowing down our responses and lowering our IQ’s so in theory most of us are ill  [].
 



One question if I may my friend[] I HOPE WERE STILL FRIENDS.


Given the fact that most of us parents would like our children to find a partner and have children in the future


if the doctors came up with a simple tablet which you only take once which would remove the small chance of any of  your children being gay  and was totally safe to take would you take it.

And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.


Michael

[neilep]

Hi Chum (BTW..I really hate you [])

In light of no (open) gays on the site....I think I am taking on the role as 'token gay' here. It does make for an interesting discussion.....and I would call it a discussion as I am not treating this as a debate.

Michael (My mate []), I appreciate your words regarding the nature of what a ' mental illness' is...but my point is not just the reference to a mental illness it is the fact that homosexuality is considered a  'condition' in the first place !

  To be a condition it must be something other than what is generally accepted as being the norm.  Now , I know that homosexuality is in the minority but whichever way you label it, to the gays that I know, it would be deemed a prejudicial term as it demonstrates that it is being labelled ' Not Normal '....THAT...is my point.  Now I am not debating the definition of ' normal ' in this case , I am expressing a point of view from the gays perspective.

..So my point is not the ' mental illness' but the labelling in the first place.

I think , unless one is gay, which as you know I am not, or has close association with gays then it is really difficult to see where I am coming from.




Regarding the population growth...what ever the raw data is it makes no difference...there is as far as I know, no Government program to ' treat ' gays on the basis of their effect on the population growth..or on anything for that matter.....in fact, a generation of gays in the majority might do the World .......a world of good !! []




Your pill question. (I’m not too sure if it’s a fair question !!![])

CRIPES !!...Could it happen ?...Boy would that be controversial in the very least.

I am not going to be pedantic here and I shall assume that this drug is 100% safe to all parties, OK, got that out of the way.

Good question. ….To be honest…I just can not answer it yet…..my gut instinct tells me that I might want to take the pill…but…the chances of my child being gay is slim anyway,. Y’see I have an issue here as to what is natural…..I truly believe that gay love is natural, it’s as natural as  straight love is in MY opinion….I know in yours, it is not…….I would not wish to participate in gay love but I could if I wanted to, and so could you and everybody else……..

……..so we’re at an impasse really…….and I was thinking before…that everything we say here regarding love, god, sexuality, emotions etc etc.....…well, it’s really all based on personal opinion whereas the sciences are mostly dealt with by facts and data etc. …I realise that is a generic statement but I honestly believe the nature of human behaviour is so wide and varied that we may never understand it and that any ‘ mental ‘ condition is not as clear cut as a scientific experiment where the results will always be the same for example.

Semantics are a real problem…….

I know you may think I have gone off down Tangent Avenue here but I have been letting my mind wander because I really want to answer your question, and I was hoping that by the time I type THIS far I will know what to say….

Michael (my chum ! []), unless faced with the choice in a real situation I don’t think I can ever answer that question with complete honesty. I would like to think that I would let ‘ nature ‘ takes it’s course though I can also see the temptation of taking that pill.

Sorry…best answer I can give…for now…….MATEY !! [][]

I would not protest against others taking it..I may think negatively though if the reason for consumption of such a pill is based on homophobia though.

...and in case someone asks, I would not be devastated if one of my children was gay....we would talk, discuss at length, but I would never love that child any less.

Michael.....we're mates ! []

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by ukmicky
However I personally find the act of homosexual penetrative sex between two males disgusting and wrong, and therefore find the people who do this act as disgusting and wrong, but the same has to be said about penetrative anal sex between a man and a woman which I find equally abhorrent.

Anal sex is not something that evolution has designed the human body to do and has in fact caused the death of a number of individuals participating in it.  In my view its nasty, horrible, dirty and disgusting and I wouldn't argue against it being outlawed.

I would go along with that, but then I also don't like eating broccoli or cauliflower (and many other foods besides), so I'm not sure why my taste in one thing or another is particularly relevant in the wider scheme of things.

quote:
On a side issue in regards to the acceptance of homosexuality, it's weird how women seem to accept it more than men.

Is that so, or is it that women are more tolerant of male homosexuality, but not so of female homosexuality (i.e. they don't see male homosexuality as a threat because it does not involve women – in the same was as heterosexual men are generally more tolerant of female homosexuality than they are of male homosexuality)?

quote:
It doesn't sicken me because a mental illness doesn't have to be something bad.

I cannot see this.  By definition, an illness is bad (not the person, just the illness itself).

You may talk of a mental condition not necessarily being bad, but the moment to apply the term 'illness' to a condition (mental or otherwise), it must indicate a judgement of something bad happening to a person (it makes no sense to say a person is ill, but there is nothing wrong with them).

quote:
One of the reasons homosexuality was dropped as a mental illness in the USA was because of the stigma which comes unfairly with term "mental illness". Many people think that someone with a mental illness is bad for society or someone who should be shunned ,and so they figured therefore that people would then feel that if homosexualarity remained a mental disorder then homosexuals would also recieve some of the prejudeces people recieve through having a mental condition.

but in the real world they believe e 1 in 4 people are diagnosed with one form or another of mental illness and most lead normal happy productive lives .

Lots of people do not even know that they have a mental disorder until it is diagnosed and up to then felt like there was nothing wrong with them, they felt normal and even after diagnosis they still felt normal. But what is normal?

There is also often controversy about diagnosing anything that is outside the normal.  There is much controversy about over diagnosis of things such as ADHD.

quote:
The population is getting older and not enough children are being born but I'm not qualified to give an opinion on this one so thats as far as i will go.

While this is true, this is far more concerned with a reduction of the number of children born to heterosexual couples, and the small number of people who do not have children because they are homosexual really has little impact on the matter.

N any case, if there is an impact that homosexuality would have on this matter, it would only be female homosexuality, since the number of children born is very little influenced by the number of heterosexually active men, and far more by the number of pregnancies each women has.

Furthermore, in past times, men were often taken out of the pool of sexually active by entering a monastic or priestly life.  We may have very much fewer priests, and almost no monks, but probably about equal numbers of homosexuals.

The main difference in the past was the generally regarded public duty for people in general, and women in particular, to have children.  These days, a very large number of heterosexuals (myself included) do not have children at all.  In the past, that would have been seen as a very selfish lifestyle to undertake.

quote:
If they could find a way too prevent any child of yours from being born gay by giving you a simple tablet which was totally safe to take would you take it.

And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.

If one could take a pill that would guarantee that your child would be male, then a great number of people in India, China, and no doubt many other countries, would choose to take that pill (there is already evidence of extensive gender based selective abortions in those countries).

George

[ukmicky]

quote:If one could take a pill that would guarantee that your child would be male, then a great number of people in India, China, and no doubt many other countries, would choose to take that pill (there is already evidence of extensive gender based selective abortions in those countries).

quote: they could find a way too prevent any child of yours from being born gay by giving you a simple tablet which was totally safe to take would you take it.

And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.



 Dogging the issue george[] i said gay not male[]



Michael