Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?

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Offline neilep

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Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« on: 22/05/2006 19:39:03 »
Hmmm...methinks I may have just realised the answer that 'cold ' is the nature of things ?.....because heat is generated by reaction and friction and other heat making stuff eh ?


I was going to ask if ' heat ' is the absence of 'cold ' or is 'cold ' just the absence of ' heat' ?

Or shall I just delete this because it's nonsense ?

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Offline Laith

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #1 on: 22/05/2006 20:18:46 »
Heat is generated by the motion of atoms, molecules, and other particles that make up matter, as well as chemical, nuclear reactions, electricity and mechanical dissipation (friction).
I say cold is just the absence of heat, or when comparing things colder is just having less heat.

Laith
« Last Edit: 22/05/2006 20:39:20 by Laith »
Laith

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #2 on: 23/05/2006 03:17:03 »
No Cold is the absense of energy or is it energy is the absence of cold.

Or does that makes less sense than yours [:)]

Michael

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #3 on: 23/05/2006 17:09:16 »
scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as "cold" just heat, or less heat.

Are YOUR mice nude? [;)]
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #4 on: 25/05/2006 03:26:38 »
I immediately laughed and said to my self, " What!!!!!!" Isn't cold the absence of heat! But know I am confused, but that doesn't take much to do! HEHEhE!
 Mayoflyfarmer, Can you clarify that statement for the layman here,(me) as I don't understand, "scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as "cold" just heat, or less heat."
How or where would no heat fit into your statement. Wouldn't there come a point in the lack of heat where there becomes cold or no heat?
  Would we measure what heat was in comparison to ouir own body temperature or how would that work?
  Man I think I have confused myself!...Karen
« Last Edit: 25/05/2006 14:43:56 by Karen W. »

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #5 on: 25/05/2006 03:28:41 »
I stepped in the P***P over my head!

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #6 on: 25/05/2006 03:32:02 »
Would there be a baseline temperature to establish what is considered heat in the first place, in order to establish that there is even a lack of heat to begin with?

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #7 on: 25/05/2006 04:14:35 »
Of course you're not way over your head Karen !..I think it's clear which one of the two of us is !

I did say that perhaps I was citing nonsense.....and I did conclude that cold is the nature of things...but perhaps one could say ' inactivity ' is the absence of ' activity ' where temperature is involved !

uh oh !!

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #8 on: 25/05/2006 14:37:51 »
Yes you did my friend, and then further comments after yours just set my head into a spin and then I began to think a bit more and one thing lead to another! You see how my brain works, oh my goodness sometimes I think I question too many things! Your original post started the center of a web for me, and now my head is in a quandry!
  Neil you are remarkable and I am amazed at the way you think. I wish at times that my mind had your knack of deduction and reasoning. You are quick and I am very slow catching on to things. I have to mull things over and ponder them for along time before they make any sense to me!

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Offline Cut Chemist

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #9 on: 25/05/2006 15:26:30 »
At absolute zero,
0 Kelivin,
-273 degrees Celcius,
all molecular motion ceases.  

That is the absence of heat and that is cold,  
as cold as you can get as a matter of fact.  

Any temperature above that, even though it might feel cold still contains some heat.
 

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #10 on: 25/05/2006 15:28:28 »
On a molecular level, temperature is approximately a measure of the amount of energy each atom has, so if you double the temperature you double the amount of energy each molecule has, be it vibrating, flying around etc. We call this energy heat.

This means that there could conceivably be a state with zero temperature, where all the molecules have no heat. This occurs at -273.17°C which is called absolute zero, although for other reasons you couldn't get there.

Cold stuff is just stuff with not very much heat energy.

ps. questioning is a ver good feature ;)

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #11 on: 25/05/2006 15:55:55 »
-273 degrees, and I thought I was cold at 60 degrees. Wow, I did not even know the temp could go that low! Wow! Thanks Dave and cut  chemist, I think that helps me somewhat more!

So does this mean the more energy a molecule has the more heat there would be present in said molecule? Or maybe in the human being? Would that apply to me also, as that makes sense in my rather dense mind that the more energy I get would produce more heat. So my energy would be directly related to my body temperature. Does ones body temp drop when energy levels fall? Oh.... wait,.... When one is sleeping ones energy has depleted and does not body temperature fall as one falls asleep, or am I off subject here or what?....Karen
« Last Edit: 25/05/2006 16:10:32 by Karen W. »

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #12 on: 25/05/2006 15:58:47 »
Hey Neil I think I've got you now. Reaction and friction are generated by energy and thus produces heat! Is that right?

 Shoot, I have to get ready for work, you guys don't go away, "I'LL BE BACK," as this is very interesting, I love learning new things ...Karen
« Last Edit: 25/05/2006 16:01:13 by Karen W. »

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #13 on: 25/05/2006 16:06:15 »
I think you've got it karen....have a great day at work...we'll be here when you return .


Actually...Karens post above begs the question...what comes first ? energy or activity ?...can you have one without the other ?...do you not need one to make the other ?

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #14 on: 25/05/2006 16:06:48 »
One more thing, you know when you just feel tired and lithless and have no energy, I just realized those are the times I become a couch potato and curl up with a WARM BLANKET, because I am always cold when I get in that mode. Perhaps I need a boost of energy to change body temperature as well as to get out of that couch potato funk!

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #15 on: 25/05/2006 16:15:51 »
Neil, That is exactly my next question! Wow! I can't go to work now, I am on a roll and my mind is working on overtime, do get an answer to that one for me too! see you later friend!....Karen

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #16 on: 25/05/2006 17:28:41 »
Technically heat is the MOVEMENT or transfer of energy, to precieve that something is warm, you have to feel the heat coming off of it which means that it is moving.  For instance if you wrap your hands around a warm coffee mug and it feels warm.  This is because the mug the molecules in the mug are at a higher energy state than the molecules in your hand.  as things tend twoards equilibrium the energy from the mug will leave the mug and enter your hand.  (you sense this energy coming into your hand as heat).  The mug will feel warm until it had equilibrated with your hand, inwhich case the energy levels are aqll the same, so there is no more net flow of energy.  
we say this is because the mug "cooled off" but really what happened is that your hand warmed up.  All units in scientific equations for energy transfer are for heat not cold.  Joules and Calories are positive innature meaning more calories = more energy less calories = less energy.  you never "add cold" to something, to "take heat away" from it.  Absolute zero (-273 celcius) is the point at which a molecule has no energy therefore you cant take any energy away from it, thus its the coldest possible temperature.  The fact that there is no upper absolute temperature is why we always think of energy in a positive manner (heat) rather than a negative one (cold)
I don't know if I'm just restating the same thing over and over again, but hopefully this explains it a little bit better karen.



Are YOUR mice nude? [;)]
<font color="maroon"></font id="maroon">How much CAML do you have in your toes? [;)]

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #17 on: 25/05/2006 17:41:34 »
Thanks Justy..

So, as Dave states above, the reason why we can never reach absolute zero is because that would mean complete and total inactivity of everything...which is impossible eh ?..as that would then be the end of that !!..the Universe would suddenly turn into a solid ice cube !


I propose an experiment akin to my shower curtain experiment where all members of this site pretend to be molecules of coffee and rub up against each other to see if we can increase the heat !..all in the name of science of course...because it's important !






(note to self: stop displaying your perverted friction orientated tendencies)


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ROBERT

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #18 on: 25/05/2006 18:35:12 »
If you are cold Neilep, you could start a fire using a condom :-

The condom full of water acts as a lens focussing the rays of the sun.
No friction required.
« Last Edit: 25/05/2006 18:40:50 by ROBERT »

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #19 on: 25/05/2006 18:48:27 »
Wooo !!

That looks great !!....

I really must remember my condoms next time I'm out in the snow...just in case I run into a particularly attractive polar bear.......ahem !!...erhhmm...so that I can make a polar bear kebab of course !!

..thing is...will it work with my ribbed Black & Red Luminous condoms ?

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 25/05/2006 18:49:43 by neilep »
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #20 on: 26/05/2006 02:55:49 »
Mayoflyfarmer, that is a good explanation now I need to think a bit. I understand the cold thing I think.
 I am slow going on the Joules, was that some kind of a unit of measure, I don't recall exactly.I remember something but not enough to get me by on that one. Too long ago , Please enlighten me!

 Neil you are too funny, you need to be careful what you are rubbing up against out there in the cold, It might bite! Not to mention it might have rabbies! You might find your coffee a bit too coarsely ground sir!

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Offline JimBob

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #21 on: 26/05/2006 19:36:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

Wooo !!

SNIP ...

..thing is...will it work with my ribbed Black & Red Luminous condoms ?

Men are the same as women, just inside out !




That is quite a conundrum -- moan ..... Not that way, you nit!




The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #22 on: 26/05/2006 21:21:52 »
yes karen, joules (as well as calories) are a unit of measure that we use to measure energy in.  just like we use meters or inches to measure distance, and seconds to measure time, and pounds and grams to measure mass/weight.  

just like all of the above stated units claories and joules are an aritrary amount of energy. but they serve as standardized units so that you can describe an amount of energy and someone will know whow much you mean.

Are YOUR mice nude? [;)]
<font color="maroon"></font id="maroon">How much CAML do you have in your toes? [;)]

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #23 on: 28/05/2006 04:02:10 »
Thanks, I could not remember that far back into my schooling. Dang! there must me a brain in here after all these years! I thought I lost track of it about 25 years ago. Nice to know I can remember something, and even nicer to know you guys are there to help pull up these things and help me when I fail! I took a physical science class in high school, which was fun until they began disecting frogs and other more disagreeable items. So this forum is great!

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #24 on: 28/05/2006 14:39:07 »
I am just amazed at the different things used as a lens...but this is the first time I have heard of a condom for such..Robert, I must say, I am amazed at your intelligence and the massive knowledge you have!

I do like Mayofarmers analogy though...thanks so much!

"Lo" Loretta
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #25 on: 28/05/2006 17:48:20 »
Hi Loretta, Glad to see you back! How was the trip, Did you find any Tame polar bears out there for Neil?

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #26 on: 28/05/2006 19:31:56 »
Hey Karen!  Trip was fine once I left Vegas and went to the desert to explore and ran across a little Tortoise....they can withstand heat up to 140 degrees...amazing!  I guess I could've covered him with some white fur and put a black nose on him and handed him over to Neil..hehe

"Lo" Loretta
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Offline neilep

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #27 on: 28/05/2006 19:36:46 »
Those tortoise can give you a nasty nip !! [:D]  OUCH !!!

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #28 on: 28/05/2006 21:00:20 »
They sure can, we would have had to put a muzzle on it for you!

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another_someone

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #29 on: 28/05/2006 21:53:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer

yes karen, joules (as well as calories) are a unit of measure that we use to measure energy in.  just like we use meters or inches to measure distance, and seconds to measure time, and pounds and grams to measure mass/weight.  

just like all of the above stated units claories and joules are an aritrary amount of energy. but they serve as standardized units so that you can describe an amount of energy and someone will know whow much you mean.



But you should be careful when using calories, since what nutritionists refer to as calories are really kilocalories.



George

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #30 on: 28/05/2006 23:45:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

Those tortoise can give you a nasty nip !! [:D]  OUCH !!!

Men are the same as women, just inside out !



I promise I didn't touch him, I swear I didn't...okay, I only have a nub left of my index finger...hehe..[;)]

"Lo" Loretta
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #31 on: 29/05/2006 08:52:50 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer

yes karen, joules (as well as calories) are a unit of measure that we use to measure energy in.  just like we use meters or inches to measure distance, and seconds to measure time, and pounds and grams to measure mass/weight.  

just like all of the above stated units calories and joules are an aritrary amount of energy. but they serve as standardized units so that you can describe an amount of energy and someone will know whow much you mean.



But you should be careful when using calories, since what nutritionists refer to as calories are really kilocalories.



George




What is the difference between calories and Kilocalories?
  No worries, Personally I don't count calories, if I like it I have a bit. I used to have a lot, but these days I am doing some serious portion control instead of counting calories. I hate math.

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another_someone

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #32 on: 29/05/2006 10:25:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.
What is the difference between calories and Kilocalories?



A factor of 1000 (kilo being the SI prefix for 1000, although it may be argued that calories are CGS units rather than SI units).





George
« Last Edit: 29/05/2006 10:25:31 by another_someone »

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #33 on: 29/05/2006 18:11:47 »
Thanks Another_Someone!

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ROBERT

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #34 on: 30/05/2006 15:53:43 »
quote:
Originally posted by moonfire

I am just amazed at the different things used as a lens...but this is the first time I have heard of a condom for such..Robert
"Lo" Loretta



If you don't have a condom handy then you can start a fire with a can of coke and a chocolate bar:-
http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/cokeandchocolatebar/

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #35 on: 31/05/2006 17:13:25 »
thanks for the clrification someone

just to elaborate.  the reason the word calories is used in the contex of heat and nutrition is because they are reffering to the same thing.... ENERGY (hence the term burn the calories off)  when you eat food the number of calories equals the amount of energy taht your body gets to generate heat (among other things such as metabolic processes, growth etc.)  This is why on the back of a Gatorade botle if you look at the nutritional information, next to the word "calories" they have in parentahses "energy", because people are used to calories being a bad thing, but when you're trying to refuel your body, its exactly what you wnat.
In theory if you were to take a slice of bread that (nutrtionally speaking) had 100 calories, and burn it instead of eat it, you would get generate 100 calories of heat.  Granted, you would actually get 100,000 calories of heat because as Another Someone pointed out, that what nutritioists call a calorie is actually a kilocalorie in sentific terms (ie 1 calroie in a can of diet coke actually equals 1000 calories)  

i just had a thought.  wouldn't it be funny if all of a sudden food packaging started displaying actual calories instead of calling Kilocalories calories.  You'd have a lot of calorie-counting dieters going crazy!!!  I personally never saw the point of counting calories myself.  The COMPOSITION of what you eat (ie what proportion of the calories come from fat/protein/carbs) and limiting harmful molecules such as cholesterols, saturated fats, and dyes and perservatives is so much more important than teh amount you eat.

Are YOUR mice nude? [;)]
<font color="maroon"></font id="maroon">How much CAML do you have in your toes? [;)]

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another_someone

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #36 on: 31/05/2006 21:34:15 »
quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer
In theory if you were to take a slice of bread that (nutrtionally speaking) had 100 calories, and burn it instead of eat it, you would get generate 100 calories of heat.  Granted, you would actually get 100,000 calories of heat because as Another Someone pointed out, that what nutritioists call a calorie is actually a kilocalorie in sentific terms (ie 1 calroie in a can of diet coke actually equals 1000 calories)  



Actually, I think you would get far more that 100 kilocalories if you burn it.

The silly thing is that the calculation of calorific values of food makes lots of assumptions about the human metabolism (which is ofcourse different for each individual).  A nutritionist would assume a lump of aluminium has no calorific value, but clearly it can be burnt in air, but unable to be digested by the human body.  A field of grass may have a significant calorific value for most cows, but not much for the average human digestive system.



George

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Offline Laith

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Re: Is 'heat ' the absence of 'cold ' ?
« Reply #37 on: 02/06/2006 03:13:21 »
Other ways to make fire, with alkali metals (Video 3:16)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2134266654801392897

Laith
« Last Edit: 02/06/2006 03:13:42 by Laith »
Laith