[alucard1-1 (OP)]

First off, this is my first post here, so I'd like to say hello to everyone.  

Now, I understand it is a silly request, but, to be honest I don't have the adequate education to properly defend my position I have in a debate I am participating in.

The debate:
A person made the statement: "Ghosts are not real, OK!?"

A long winded debate follows with the instigator basically refusing to participate by using a logistical statement that ghosts cannot be proven to exist, so they do not.

My part of the debate is that his initial statement, logically speaking, is in itself, in error.  It would be more accurate to state, 'Ghosts cannot be proven to exist at this time.' to which the instigator responds with 'using logic and the scientific method a negative cannot be proven.' And will not continue in a discussion.  

I can concede the basis of his arguement, but offered a couple of examples to make my point.  These points were:

As far as ghosts existing, or not.  The earth was once believed to be flat, and the center of the universe.  These beliefs have been proven to be erroneous.  I made the point that though ghosts cannot be proven to exist <at this point in time> it isn't possible to honestly say they will not be proven to exist at some time in the future.

A second point to his 'you cannot prove something does not exist' - I made a reaching analogy that it can be proven that plaid is not a naturally occuring skin tone.

----

My post here is basically a request to assist me in furthering this debate, accurately.  Another person in the debate had a better suggestion, making the statement it can be scientifically and mathmatically proven that the earth has no second moon.  This, I felt, was a much better arguement, but the instigator refused to respond to the statement.

Again, I realize this is all a silly debate...  I, myself, do not believe that 'ghosts' exist, simply that his statement is also inaccurate.

For a complete version of the debate, you can go here:
newbielink:http://imdb.com/title/tt0429573/board/flat/42934499 [nonactive]

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[DoctorBeaver]

It cannot be "mathematically & scientifically proven" that the Earth doesn't have a 2nd moon; it can only be proven within the bounds of our current knowledge.

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[alucard1-1 (OP)]

That's disheartening, lol.  

I would assume that it would be considered, logical or mathmatically proveable with this line of thinking:

1st - Through physical observation, only one moon can be seen from either the earth's surface, or while in orbit around the earth.
2nd - The gravity affect of the moon can be measured by the tides.  And we know that the moon stablizes the earth's axis, giving us seasons.  The fact that a second, or more, moons would also affect this leads to the conclusion that there is only one moon, and hence no second moon exists.

Can it be explained as to why this line of thought is in error?  As I said before, I don't have an adequate education to understand this I guess.  It seems to me to be rational.

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by alucard1-1

That's disheartening, lol.  

I would assume that it would be considered, logical or mathmatically proveable with this line of thinking:

1st - Through physical observation, only one moon can be seen from either the earth's surface, or while in orbit around the earth.
2nd - The gravity affect of the moon can be measured by the tides.  And we know that the moon stablizes the earth's axis, giving us seasons.  The fact that a second, or more, moons would also affect this leads to the conclusion that there is only one moon, and hence no second moon exists.

Can it be explained as to why this line of thought is in error?  As I said before, I don't have an adequate education to understand this I guess.  It seems to me to be rational.

That we have a single moon, and no more, is consistent with all known knowledge, and we know of no way that it could be otherwise – but is simply saying that we know of no way it could be otherwise the same as saying that you have mathematically proven that it cannot be otherwise.

George

[DoctorBeaver]

Well put, George

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[alucard1-1 (OP)]

That we have a single moon, and no more, is consistent with all known knowledge, and we know of no way that it could be otherwise – but is simply saying that we know of no way it could be otherwise the same as saying that you have mathematically proven that it cannot be otherwise.

That does make sense.  But wouldn't that be akin to the old beliefs of the earth being flat, and the center of the universe?  These too were common 'knowledge' beliefs that have long since been learned to be in error.

Wouldn't all of this come down to the point that his initial statement of "ghost's do not exist" as false as well?

[neilep]

This is akin to ' does god exist' or any other debate based upon supernatural phenomena.

Unless you witness/experience a ghost yourself under conditions you accept to be true, then the debate remains one based on speculation and belief.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[alucard1-1 (OP)]

Exactly...

which was why I thought a more accurate statement from him should have been either "I don't belive ghost exist," or "ghost cannot be proven to exist at this time."  But he wouldn't accept that because my statement was a fallacy...

[neilep]

If the instigator is unwilling to display flexibility in the face of good reason then I suspect it's the end of the debate due to the instigators rigidity.

......actually, i think it's a good debate for the sake of debating sake...if anything it helps to set down rudimentary rules for the nature of debate !

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[DoctorBeaver]

Ghosts or not, some very strange things have been happening to me lately. Firstly a whole duvet has simply disappeared. We've looked everywhere and it simply is not in the house anymore.

The 2nd thing that happened was that the pepper went missing. It turned up 2 days later in a toolbox.

Then, a few days ago, I went to the shop & left my webcam recording. When I got back, the TV was on. By coincidence, I'd had the webcam pointing in that direction so I checked the video. Sure enough, about 5 mins into the recording the TV just switched on. The remote control was on the coffee table and visible in the video. The dogs hadn't accidentally knocked it or anything like that & there was no-one else in the house. And before anyone asks, the timer will only switch it off at a preset time, not switch it on.

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[alucard1-1 (OP)]

Neil..  thanks for that.  Thats basically what I thought as well.

Doc, that sounds very interesting...  maybe do some other research on that..

[neilep]

Thanks Lee, By the way I love Garlic so no biting my neck ok ?

Eth, I am most concerned by the events in your home. Have you located the duvet yet ?

was the TV in standby or was it really turned off ?...it could have come out of standby...

...it's the duvet which really gets me wondering....failing that, perhaps you have a playful-duvet-loving-TV-watching poltergeist !



Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[time-cop]

did you have a dream about eating a giant waffle ?

http://www.armybarmy.org

[science_guy]

...Either i'm stupider than i ever thought, or Waffles have nothing to do with ghosts.

I believe that ghosts may be real, because my teacher has had an experience with her uncle, after he died

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

[neilep]

One thing's for sure...waffles are real...yummy !!

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by science_guy
...Either i'm stupider than i ever thought, or Waffles have nothing to do with ghosts.

You mean there is no such thing as a ghost waffle? []

quote:
I believe that ghosts may be real, because my teacher has had an experience with her uncle, after he died

Would you like to expand on this – what type of experience are you talking about?

George

[alucard1-1 (OP)]

I was wondering about the waffle comment myself..  ?

[Laith]

If you can't prove that something exists doesn’t mean that it doesn’t, and also if you can’t prove that something does not exist that doesn't mean that it does! For example if you can't prove that there isn't a bicycle on Pluto that does not mean that there is one.
As for ghosts, I’ve heard stories from 2 friends that have seen strange things they called ghosts, honestly I do trust them and I don’t think they would lie to me, at least I believe that they really think they saw a ghost, not only that but their parents also say there was something at their place.
For some reason I’m the kind of person that has to see something to believe it, especially when it’s something like that, so I still don’t believe in ghosts if you ask me, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if I ever saw one! And I really hope I do.

Doctorbeaver: anything new with you?? are strange things still happening at your place? I find this interesting please keep us updated
if you do see seomthing would you run away or try to talk to it? i'm guessing it would depends on how scary it looks []


Laith

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by Laith
As for ghosts, I’ve heard stories from 2 friends that have seen strange things they called ghosts, honestly I do trust them and I don’t think they would lie to me, at least I believe that they really think they saw a ghost, not only that but their parents also say there was something at their place.
For some reason I’m the kind of person that has to see something to believe it, especially when it’s something like that, so I still don’t believe in ghosts if you ask me, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if I ever saw one! And I really hope I do.

The problem is that nobody can see a ghost – they can see an unexplained image, and until one can properly study that image, how can you possibly clasify it as a ghost, or as anything else.

I doubt very much that your two friends had a proper opportunity toi study what they thought they saw.

And, as any policeman will tell you, the most unreliable evidence you can possibly have is an eye witness, because eye witnesses don't tell you what they saw, they tell you their interpretation of what they saw.

George

[DoctorBeaver]

quote:Originally posted by Laith


Doctorbeaver: anything new with you?? are strange things still happening at your place? I find this interesting please keep us updated
if you do see seomthing would you run away or try to talk to it? i'm guessing it would depends on how scary it looks []


Laith

I'd probably give it a can of Stella []

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